Hi All,

Been a long time member since ISY, and now using Eisy for my home. I have a vacation home with a bunch of Zooz Z-Wave devices that are connected to a Hubitat C-8 hub. I also have Home Assistant that is able to see the Hubitat devices. Every time I get an email from UD, I'm always asking the question 'Should I upgrade to Eisy at the vacation home?'. So wanted to get some thoughts from everyone. Currently the issue that I have in the vacation home is that I have multiple 3-way switches that are set up in master/slave configurations. No matter what I do, there's always a slight delay when using one of the slave switches. This is irritating as heck for me and the wife. So wondering if I get the Eisy, will my troubles go away since I can set up switches in groups? Is my issue a Zooz Z-Wave issue or a Hub issue? I've done all the troubleshooting I could have (Zooz said to set up in direct connect mode, didn't fix it), and the issue still persists. I guess my options are: Try different Z-Wave devices (leaning toward inovelli), Try Insteon Devices, replace Hubitat.

Any thoughts everyone? Thank you!

Edited Sunday at 09:32 PM1 day by TomNow2

I don't know how "scenes" work in Zwave, but with Insteon, you set up scenes that make the switches communicate directly with each other, so the eisy isn't involved in the actual communication between them, making for very fast response.

When I started automating my home, the second thing I did (replacing a single manual dimmer with a KPL was the first) was to set up my 3-way stairwell with Insteon devices - a dimmer on the load, and two switches for the top and bottom non-load locations. It has never (and I mean never) failed to operate correctly at any of the locations or had any delay. And I could dim with the non-load switches, even they were the relay (on/off) version, which seemed like magic at the time. I have also taken maximum advantage of the built-in double tap off - the one at the bottom of the stairs turns everything off upstairs, and the one at the top turns off the downstairs and lights the way to bed.

Long story, but I highly recommend you look into an Insteon conversion. The links for N-way are in the devices themselves, so there's never any processing delay, and it still works if the controller is nonresponsive. Some of this (multitap, direct links, etc.) has become possible with Z-Wave since I started automating, because that was a while ago, but I still think no one does direct device-device linking better than Insteon to this day. And if you are going to use Insteon, you MUST have UDI's controllers to set it up and control it. Nothing else comes close for ease of use and versatility.

-Tom

30 minutes ago, Guy Lavoie said:

I don't know how "scenes" work in Zwave, but with Insteon, you set up scenes that make the switches communicate directly with each other, so the eisy isn't involved in the actual communication between them, making for very fast response.

Ahh right, I called them groups. Yep, I have scenes at my normal home set up in 3-way setups and I've had no issues either.

@TomNow2 I'm in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp. Aside from some issues (with z-wave in general) it sounds like things work as you have them setup. There's been a lot of comments through the last several years (and most recently in this thread) that z-wave (by nature) has a "popcorn effect". Meaning what you're experiencing seems to be normal for z-wave in lighting. Changing the controller wouldn't help the nature of z-wave and the inherent issues it has with lighting delays.

Initially I'd say just leave it as it is. It's a vacation home and you don't seem to need to mess/fiddle with it how it currently is controlled.

The other side of that would be that the investment to change the switches and other automation parts to other devices might outweigh the issues you're currently having, but living with. Sure, you could rip everything out and put in Insteon (for lighting) and have better control of on/off and dimming than what z-wave does, but you would also have a different controller that is going through ongoing development and updates that you'd need to push/update when you got to the vacation property.

If the issues you're having are bothersome and you want to fix those then you'd more than likely have to remove all z-wave lighting control and go with a different option. If it's a DYI project then Insteon is probably the best option for that kind of job. Otherwise, there are still different options to consider (see referenced thread linked above). Just changing the controller for the issues you describe won't make things better.

Note: I don't know the Hubitat system so can't comment on what it can/can't do. I tried Home Assistant a few years ago and was not impressed (too much learning curve at the time) so can't say if that would be beneficial to use differently.

19 minutes ago, xlurkr said:

When I started automating my home, the second thing I did (replacing a single manual dimmer with a KPL was the first) was to set up my 3-way stairwell with Insteon devices - a dimmer on the load, and two switches for the top and bottom non-load locations. It has never (and I mean never) failed to operate correctly at any of the locations or had any delay. And I could dim with the non-load switches, even they were the relay (on/off) version, which seemed like magic at the time. I have also taken maximum advantage of the built-in double tap off - the one at the bottom of the stairs turns everything off upstairs, and the one at the top turns off the downstairs and lights the way to bed.

Long story, but I highly recommend you look into an Insteon conversion. The links for N-way are in the devices themselves, so there's never any processing delay, and it still works if the controller is nonresponsive. Some of this (multitap, direct links, etc.) has become possible with Z-Wave since I started automating, because that was a while ago, but I still think no one does direct device-device linking better than Insteon to this day. And if you are going to use Insteon, you MUST have UDI's controllers to set it up and control it. Nothing else comes close for ease of use and versatility.

-Tom

Thanks for replying. I'm definitely thinking this is a problem to be solved by Insteon, I'll add it to the list to try.

2 minutes ago, Geddy said:

@TomNow2 I'm in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" camp. Aside from some issues (with z-wave in general) it sounds like things work as you have them setup. There's been a lot of comments through the last several years (and most recently in this thread) that z-wave (by nature) has a "popcorn effect". Meaning what you're experiencing seems to be normal for z-wave in lighting. Changing the controller wouldn't help the nature of z-wave and the inherent issues it has with lighting delays.

Initially I'd say just leave it as it is. It's a vacation home and you don't seem to need to mess/fiddle with it how it currently is controlled.

The other side of that would be that the investment to change the switches and other automation parts to other devices might outweigh the issues you're currently having, but living with. Sure, you could rip everything out and put in Insteon (for lighting) and have better control of on/off and dimming than what z-wave does, but you would also have a different controller that is going through ongoing development and updates that you'd need to push/update when you got to the vacation property.

If the issues you're having are bothersome and you want to fix those then you'd more than likely have to remove all z-wave lighting control and go with a different option. If it's a DYI project then Insteon is probably the best option for that kind of job. Otherwise, there are still different options to consider (see referenced thread linked above). Just changing the controller for the issues you describe won't make things better.

Note: I don't know the Hubitat system so can't comment on what it can/can't do. I tried Home Assistant a few years ago and was not impressed (too much learning curve at the time) so can't say if that would be beneficial to use differently.

Thanks for being the voice of reason Geddy. 100% agree with you that I can probably live with it and everything else works fine. That being said, I could essentially try replacing just 3 switches with Insteon and do the programming from the devices themselves to see if it gets fixed. This way The Hubitat would still be controlling all the other switches and my 'test' would be on their own (which is fine). Then again, I think I'm just looking for another project for me to do lol

@TomNow2 , I'm a bit late to the party and I'm confused by the delay that you are seeing with the Zooz switches. Zooz is one of the few manufacturers that allows you to combine their Z-wave switch/dimmer with a conventional mechanical switch. It's one of the reasons I've installed them.

In my experience, the Zooz direct wire is far faster (immediate), 100% reliable, and far less expensive than the Insteon "virtual" 3-way.

The Zooz direct wire install (below) should be immediate. You mentioned "slave" switches - I assume these are simple mechanical switches. There should not be any interaction with the hub. If actuating the mechanical switch doesn't produce an immediate response in the load, you may have a ramp rate or something else programmed in the Z-wave switch.

6 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

@TomNow2 , I'm a bit late to the party and I'm confused by the delay that you are seeing with the Zooz switches. Zooz is one of the few manufacturers that allows you to combine their Z-wave switch/dimmer with a conventional mechanical switch. It's one of the reasons I've installed them.

In my experience, the Zooz direct wire is far faster (immediate), 100% reliable, and far less expensive than the Insteon "virtual" 3-way.

The Zooz direct wire install (below) should be immediate. You mentioned "slave" switches - I assume these are simple mechanical switches. There should not be any interaction with the hub. If actuating the mechanical switch doesn't produce an immediate response in the load, you may have a ramp rate or something else programmed in the Z-wave switch.

Hi IndyMike, thanks for replying but my Zooz switches are in 'virtual' 3-way mode. The Master is connected to the light, and the slaves are the other two 'virtual' switches and not direct wire. There is a noticeable delay with ramp rate on the slave switches. I basically have to remember which switch is the master and use that one for any of my dimming needs. PITA but luckily I don't have to change the light dimming very often.

OK, I understand why the response isn't immediate, but it's surprising that you notice a measurable delay.

What specific switches are you using (Zen77, etc) and what type of Z-wave controller (I'm not up on Hubitat).

To put things in perspective, I've been moving from Insteon (ISY994) to Z-wave (Home Assistant). I have numerous locations where I have Insteon/Z-wave switches controlling each other. This is a Virtual 3-way from the ISY994 to Home Assistant. I don't notice a delay.

Insteon Switch >>>>> ISY994 >>>>> Network >>>> Home Assistant >>>> Zooz Dimmer.

Not sure if you have a Hubitat problem or a Slave Switch problem

35 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

OK, I understand why the response isn't immediate, but it's surprising that you notice a measurable delay.

What specific switches are you using (Zen77, etc) and what type of Z-wave controller (I'm not up on Hubitat).

To put things in perspective, I've been moving from Insteon (ISY994) to Z-wave (Home Assistant). I have numerous locations where I have Insteon/Z-wave switches controlling each other. This is a Virtual 3-way from the ISY994 to Home Assistant. I don't notice a delay.

Insteon Switch >>>>> ISY994 >>>>> Network >>>> Home Assistant >>>> Zooz Dimmer.

Not sure if you have a Hubitat problem or a Slave Switch problem

Thanks again for responding. I think at this point it's a Zooz Switch issue because I have them all set up as a direct link so they aren't going through the Hubitat hub. I did some extensive troubleshooting and have a post on the Hubitat forums. Notice it's from 2024 lol So yeah, it's been a thorn in my side for a while :)

Virtual 3-Way Zooz Dimmers too slow - 🛎️ Get Help - Hubitat

Here my setup at my vacation home:
Hub: Hubitat C8
Dimmer Switches: Looks like they are Zen72

I think I'll try with the Innovelli's and if the problem is gone, then it was a Zooz problem. Trial and error is fine with me cause it gets me something to do while I'm up there.

I'm surprised to hear you switching out the Insteon's, they've been fantastic for me at my primary home! ISY+Insteon+ Home Assistant (for my automations and my zwave/zigbee devices) has been rock solid!