Please I need help with this programming.....long time user, getting old and have no clue!

Tank level sensor closes contact – Insteon 2450 IO  (which 2450 mode?)

Then wait 10 minutes

Turn on fill pump (Insteon- micro on, with power relay)

Keep pump running until tank level sensor open contact – Insteon 2450 IO

Turn off fill pump (Insteon- micro off, with power relay)

 

Thank you for your help

Karl

If sensor is off/on (whichever means not full)

Wait 10 minutes

Set micro relay on that turns on pump

Else

Set micro relay off that controls pump

Will be easier with 3 programs IMO

Program 1: Fill

If

FillPumpSensor switches on

Then

Wait 10 minutes

Set FillPump On

Program 2: Stop

If

FillPumpSensor switches off

Then

Set FillPump Off

Program 3: Deadman switch

If

FillPumpSensor is on (NOT switched)

Then

Wait XX Minutes. (You decide, see note below)

Set FillPump Off

Program 3 is in case the messaging to/from the iolinc is missed, it can happen. Pick a number of total minutes you think a cycle should be, maybe add 1 minute to it and assign that to XX. The first program use If Switched and the last uses If status

When your program has a Wait statement, make sure it's triggered by a static condition, like a status change. Looking for control events ("is switched on") won't work because it doesn't remain true other than the first time it's detected.

One effect is that if the detector turns off before the 10 minutes is up, then the pump won't turn on at all, which is what you might be wanting here.

7 hours ago, kvolger said:

Please I need help with this programming

It might help to describe what it is you are trying to do, under what conditions cause the tank sensor to open and close, and what it is that the program is, or is not, doing that you expect it to do. It is also helpful to see the exact program rather than a paraphrase. Control (switched on) versus status conditions behave differently and can affect how programs work and it seems unclear to me which type of conditions you have in your program.

Having said all that, I suspect Guy Lavoie has identified the most likely problem, short of a communication problem between devices.

Edited Tuesday at 02:14 AM3 days by oberkc

Thank you guys for all your input,

paulbates suggestion was my first thought.

oberkc What I am trying to do, if my pressure pump takes water out of the tank (the tank sensor is open when tank is full) the sensor goes closed then. I like for the fill pump to wait 10 minutes before starting to pump water back into the tank. The runtime of the fill pump should be variable, controlled by the Insteon 2450 IO - when its sensor input goes open depending on the full tank - tank sensor is open.

I have not written that program yet, as I am not sure how to imbed a secondary condition for the 2450 IO when its status changed from ON to Off. The completion/end of that program should be dictated by the status change of the 2450IO device.

Guy Lavoie One effect is that if the detector turns off before the 10 minutes is up, then the pump won't turn on at all, which is what you might be wanting here.

The detector (tank sensor) can't turn off before the ten minutes are up, as only the running fill pump (after Wait) can top off the water level in the tank, and change then the status of the tank sensor.

1 hour ago, kvolger said:

I have not written that program yet, as I am not sure how to imbed a secondary condition for the 2450 IO when its status changed from ON to Off. The completion/end of that program should be dictated by the status change of the 2450IO device.

Well your secondary condition is actually taken care of automatically by the status change of the same input that triggers the program. In essence, if the triggering condition is detected as a status, it remains true until the status chnges again (level sensor closes again). If you hadn't wanted the 10 minute delay, it would be a straight if/then like this:

• program 1

If Status level sensor is ON

Then Turn on pump

• program 2

If Status level sensor is OFF

Then Turn off pump

The desired 10 second wait before turning on the pump is done by adding a line to program 1:

• program 1

If Status level sensor is ON

Then Wait 10 minutes

Then Turn on pump

That works because the status of the level sensor will remain at ON during the time that the program is waiting 10 minutes before continuing and turning on the pump. Adding a wait like that is a good practise, it adds hysterisis to the control system, preventing short run cycles of the pump.

Unless I am missing something, I see no reason to put this into two programs. Assuming the wiring to the IOLinc is correct and tested, and assuming that the relay is in the correct mode (latching), and assuming that the low- and high-water sensors are the same sensor, and assuming the sensor will not trigger except at the high and low marks (and not somewhere in-between) I am failing to see why the single program would not work. Use "STATUS" condition for the water level sensor (IOLinc sensor wired to something, I assume). As GuyLavoie points out, the low water sensor will remain set until the water reaches the high point where it will trigger the sensor to the opposite state. Adding the 10 minute wait would not get interrupted as near as I can tell. The only way for the wait to get interrupted would be for the pump to turn on and fill the tank to the high water mark.

I agree also with paulbates: I would include a backup plan. It is not worth risking overflow of the tank.

I would also be surprised if there is not a standard commercially-available solution to this problem. What is the "tank"? An aquarium? Sump? Water storage? Other?

Thank you again for you time and effort on this issue.

I have not received the Insteon 2450 IO yet, being down in the Baja California Sur is a bit more complicated than residing in Los Angeles, CA.

Guy Levoie: That works because the status of the level sensor will remain at ON during the time that the program is waiting 10 minutes before continuing and turning on the pump. Adding a wait like that is a good practise, it adds hysterisis to the control system, preventing short run cycles of the pump.

That is the exact reason I wanted to add the Wait command with appr. 10minutes to the program.

oberkc: I am failing to see why the single program would not work. Use "STATUS" condition for the water level sensor (IOLinc sensor wired to something, I assume).

I shall test the single program after having the 2450 IO in my hands, otherwise the two program would be an easy solution to use.

The reason for all this: The fill pump for this water storage tank, used to be a very expensive and sophisticated deep well solar pump. During solar hours it was filling the tank, and then provided watersystem pressure for house and irrigation. This solar pump was solely controlled by an inline pressure switch. After daylight hours the standard pressure pump took over, only drawing water from the storage tank and providing watersystem pressure. Being controlle by a separate pressure switch.

The expensive solar pump went kaputt, and the replacement well pump would be able to fill the tank, but could not create the necessary needed watersytem pressure, the control via a pressure switch would not work any longer.

A simple float switch is not an option for this project.

Water is being drawn from this tank at various times of the day, and the new fill pump is supposed to keep the tank full, right now temp. programmed at four fixed times with a 15minutes run time each.

22 hours ago, oberkc said:

assuming that the relay is in the correct mode (latching)

Make sure you change to this mode for the relay. I coincidentally installed my first 2450 yesterday, and it was defaulted to "momentary", with a 2 second hold time. It is part of the garage kit, where the relay is supposed to push the garage door button, so a standalone IOLinc might be configured differently, but please check and test. You change the setting with the "Options" button at the bottom of the device page in the AC.

-Tom

20 hours ago, kvolger said:

Thank you again for you time and effort on this issue.

I have not received the Insteon 2450 IO yet, being down in the Baja California Sur is a bit more complicated than residing in Los Angeles, CA.

Guy Levoie: That works because the status of the level sensor will remain at ON during the time that the program is waiting 10 minutes before continuing and turning on the pump. Adding a wait like that is a good practise, it adds hysterisis to the control system, preventing short run cycles of the pump.

That is the exact reason I wanted to add the Wait command with appr. 10minutes to the program.

oberkc: I am failing to see why the single program would not work. Use "STATUS" condition for the water level sensor (IOLinc sensor wired to something, I assume).

I shall test the single program after having the 2450 IO in my hands, otherwise the two program would be an easy solution to use.

The reason for all this: The fill pump for this water storage tank, used to be a very expensive and sophisticated deep well solar pump. During solar hours it was filling the tank, and then provided watersystem pressure for house and irrigation. This solar pump was solely controlled by an inline pressure switch. After daylight hours the standard pressure pump took over, only drawing water from the storage tank and providing watersystem pressure. Being controlle by a separate pressure switch.

The expensive solar pump went kaputt, and the replacement well pump would be able to fill the tank, but could not create the necessary needed watersytem pressure, the control via a pressure switch would not work any longer.

A simple float switch is not an option for this project.

Water is being drawn from this tank at various times of the day, and the new fill pump is supposed to keep the tank full, right now temp. programmed at four fixed times with a 15minutes run time each.

Your description of the pumping system concerns me. It sounds like you are transitioning from a dedicated system with hardwired sensors/safeties to a distributed system with communicating sensors/safeties. This doesn't sound like something that I would trust to home automation devices. At least not without backup sensors and over-rides (yes I've been burned).

The 2450 IOLinc may seem like a handy solution, but it is powerline only communication (prone to communication errors) and will respond to Insteon All-on errors. I am not sure that the All-on matters if you are using it in a "sensor only" configuration.

The micro ON/OFF switches are more recent technology and MAY be immune to All-On/OFF commands. Please do test this.

Beyond the above, you need to think through failure modes:

1. What happens if an micro on/off doesn't receive communication and doesn't turn on/off?

2. Same for the 2450 - it doesn't transmit the contact open/close.

3. What happens if the system is running and power fails?

4. What happens when power is restored (many modules will default to the last power state).

Sorry to be Debbie Downer here, but I'm concerned the "criticality" of this system. What happens when something doesn't turn on/off as planned? Is it a minor inconvenience, a moderate cost, or a major explosion?

If the answer is an inconvenience, then by all means proceed. If other, then not as much.

Thank you IndyMike & xlurkr,

Beyond the above, you need to think through failure modes:

1. What happens if an micro on/off doesn't receive communication and doesn't turn on/off? The storage tank is fitted with an automatic ball valve, controlled by the top level sensor when tank is full. The fill pump, if not shut off by the home automation, can pump into the watersystem against existing pipe pressure - not perfect scenario.....

2. Same for the 2450 - it doesn't transmit the contact open/close. same as above

3. What happens if the system is running and power fails? We have a 16KW automatic back-up generator and the network with the ISY 994i and interface are protected by an UPS to bridge the start-up time of the generator.

4. What happens when power is restored (many modules will default to the last power state). The Insteon devices will loose power during the start-up time of the generator, and I have no clue if a program will then continue to run, otherwise see #1 above.

Yes, the 2450 IO needs to be in the latching mode

@kvolger , glad that you've thought through a few of the failure scenarios. It sounds like you are comfortable with the system risks.

I hope things work well for you.