constant communication error reports

[Brian H]

I have an ISY99i with the latest firmware.

Must be a plus thing.

[apostolakisl]

The KPL is rev 1.65 firmware v.2c

 

I just got the replacement switch from SH and did a "replace with" command. Now things are different. If I run a scene test starting from "off", all pass. If I run a scene test starting from "on", only the new switch passes.

 

I started playing with many of my scenese and find that many of them pass when starting from "off" and fail from "on". I don't know the difference. The scenes do turn on/off when directed (almost always).

 

Another curious thing. I have a program that when the light in the master is off, and you press "off" after dark, it turns on to 20%. What currently happens most of the time, is if it is on and you shut it off after dark, it shuts off then pops up to 20%. It appears the ISY is thinking it was off already when I hit "off" even though it was on. The ISY is clearly receiving signals from the switch or it would not know to run the program, so why doesn't it know that the light was already on?

 

Here are the test results from the same scene as before, one starting from off and the other starting from on.

 

Starting from off

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:53 AM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 17 13 00 06

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:53 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 16.13.94 0F.D5.71 62 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:53 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][16.13.94-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:53 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 16.13.94 0F.D5.71 62 13 17 LTOFFRR(17): Process Message: failed

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:53 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][16.13.94-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:54 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 05.15.36 0F.D5.71 62 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:54 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][05.15.36-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:55 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0D.16.85 0F.D5.71 6B 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:55 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0D.16.85-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:55 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0D.19.7C 0F.D5.71 62 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:55 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0D.19.7C-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:55 AM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:55 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.7B.38 0F.D5.71 61 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:27:55 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][00.7B.38-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

----- Upstairs Hall S Test Results -----

[succeeded] Upstairs Frt Bed/Hall (D 16 85 1)

[succeeded] Upstairs by Utility/Hall (16 13 94 1)

[succeeded] Mstr Bed Key C Upstairs (5 15 36 5)

[succeeded] Upstairs by Gst/Hall L (D 19 7C 1)

[succeeded] Foyer @ Stairs/A (0 7B 38 3)

----- Upstairs Hall S Test Results -----

Fri 10/15/2010 08:28:01 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.17 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

 

 

Now starting from on

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:26:58 AM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 17 13 00 06

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:26:59 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 16.13.94 0F.D5.71 62 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:26:59 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][16.13.94-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:26:59 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 16.13.94 0F.D5.71 62 13 17 LTOFFRR(17): Process Message: failed

 

Fri 10/15/2010 08:26:59 AM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][16.13.94-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

----- Upstairs Hall S Test Results -----

[Failed] Upstairs Frt Bed/Hall (D 16 85 1)

[succeeded] Upstairs by Utility/Hall (16 13 94 1)

[Failed] Mstr Bed Key C Upstairs (5 15 36 5)

[Failed] Upstairs by Gst/Hall L (D 19 7C 1)

[Failed] Foyer @ Stairs/A (0 7B 38 3)

----- Upstairs Hall S Test Results -----

[IndyMike]

The KPL is rev 1.65 firmware v.2c

 

I just got the replacement switch from SH and did a "replace with" command. Now things are different. If I run a scene test starting from "off", all pass. If I run a scene test starting from "on", only the new switch passes.

 

I started playing with many of my scenese and find that many of them pass when starting from "off" and fail from "on". I don't know the difference. The scenes do turn on/off when directed (almost always).

 

Now this sounds similar to the post that I linked to. I had a situation where some CFL's were generating enough noise to interfere with the PLM. My scene test would fail from an ON condition and pass from an OFF.

 

You may want to play with selectively turning on devices to see if you can isolate an offender.

 

Another curious thing. I have a program that when the light in the master is off, and you press "off" after dark, it turns on to 20%. What currently happens most of the time, is if it is on and you shut it off after dark, it shuts off then pops up to 20%. It appears the ISY is thinking it was off already when I hit "off" even though it was on. The ISY is clearly receiving signals from the switch or it would not know to run the program, so why doesn't it know that the light was already on?

 

Please post your program/Event viewer contents.

 

 

I'm still bothered by the fact that your devices are responding with 2 and 3 hops, even though the ISY is clearly commanding them to use 1 hop.

 

I'm hoping that the UDI team can help explain what is happening here.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello IndyMike,

 

Just a note on how scene test works:

1. The Admin Console creates the INSTEON message and sends it to ISY

2. ISY simply forwards the message to the PLM

3. For every ACK received, ISY sends a status report back to all clients (Admin Console being one of them)

 

As such, in this case, ISY only acts as router and does NOT interpret the signals whatsoever. It simply forwards them to clients. Admin Console is in charge of deciphering the messages.

 

All this said, I have experienced the same issue a couple of times before. If some devices in the scene are on, the scene test fails. In these scenarios, the problem was always either a faulty switch or the load on one of those switches that caused the problems. The best way to figure out which one is causing the problem is to start from all on, then turn off each switch individually and repeat the test.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[apostolakisl]

Thanks for the help. I'll play with it again when I get home. The load should not be a problem as it is regular can lights with incandescent bulbs. I do have a few cfl's in my house but they were off.

[apostolakisl]

Just remembered that I can do this all from the office over the internet. I made sure of the individual switch status by doing a querry before running the test.

 

So after going through one by one and shutting down switches, I have found that shutting off the brand new switch is the only thing that allows the scene to pass. (upstairs by utility). This switch is brand new from Insteon arrived yesterday and installed this am. It does not have the load on it.

 

Please note, that this is a problem pretty much across the board with all of my scenes. I tried another scene with three switches and found that after trying the scene with one switch off at a time, there was one switch in the group that allowed it to pass. Both of the scenes only have incandescent bulbs.

 

Here is the log from the scene we have been messing with having turned off only the switch that seems to be cuasing the failure (the new one, upstairs by utility).

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:40 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 17 13 00 06

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:41 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 16.13.94 0F.D5.71 61 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:41 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][16.13.94-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:41 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 05.15.36 0F.D5.71 61 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:41 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][05.15.36-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:41 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0D.16.85 0F.D5.71 61 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:41 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0D.16.85-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0D.19.7C 0F.D5.71 66 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:42 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0D.19.7C-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=1

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:42 PM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.7B.38 0F.D5.71 61 13 17 LTOFFRR(17)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:43:42 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][00.7B.38-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

----- Upstairs Hall S Test Results -----

[succeeded] Upstairs Frt Bed/Hall (D 16 85 1)

[succeeded] Upstairs by Utility/Hall (16 13 94 1)

[succeeded] Mstr Bed Key C Upstairs (5 15 36 5)

[succeeded] Upstairs by Gst/Hall L (D 19 7C 1)

[succeeded] Foyer @ Stairs/A (0 7B 38 3)

----- Upstairs Hall S Test Results -----

 

And here is the other scene I referred to. This has three switches in it and turning off the loaded switch did the trick (the family rm one). The load is incandescent.

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:28 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 1A 13 00 06

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:28 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 12.2F.85 0F.D5.71 62 13 1A LTOFFRR(1A)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:28 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][12.2F.85-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:28 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 00.2C.24 0F.D5.71 62 13 1A LTOFFRR(1A)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:28 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][00.2C.24-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=2, Hops Left=0

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:29 PM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:29 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 12.1D.9F 0F.D5.71 63 13 1A LTOFFRR(1A)

 

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:29 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][12.1D.9F-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=0

 

----- Patio Lts S Test Results -----

[succeeded] Family Rm/Pat lts L (12 2F 85 1)

[succeeded] Living Room/Pat Lt (12 1D 9F 1)

[succeeded] Master/Pat Lts (0 2C 24 1)

----- Patio Lts S Test Results -----

Fri 10/15/2010 12:53:36 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.1A CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

[Sub-Routine]

Yes, it is a feature only on the ISY99i-Pro.

 

It was designed in response to requests by professional installers. They can make many changes without waiting for the writes, then toggle Batch Mode and leave the site.

 

I have an ISY99i with the latest firmware.

Must be a plus thing.

[IndyMike]

Now I'm at a loss...

 

I can't come up with any scenario that would explain why a unloaded switch would respond differently if it were on or off.

 

Is it possible that this was a spurious pass/fail? In other words, is this repeatable?

 

So after going through one by one and shutting down switches, I have found that shutting off the brand new switch is the only thing that allows the scene to pass. (upstairs by utility). This switch is brand new from Insteon arrived yesterday and installed this am. It does not have the load on it.

[apostolakisl]

I ran it twice earlier and got the same result. I just ran it now and this time got a different result (2 switches failed). I went through all of the switches and I got a success by turning off a different switch. Then I tried that one a second time and it failed.

 

The only thing that is very consistent is that it fails with them all on and passes with them all off. This is 100%

[IndyMike]

apostolakisl,

 

I'm going to cut to the chase and give you my opinion on where your problem is (short answer), and then give you my reasoning (long answer).

 

Short answer - the placement of your PLM (/and or accesspoints) is not allowing it to "hear" responses from the scene test responders. I know that you have tried re-locating the PLM with no obvious improvement. Please try re-locating to an outlet as close to your electrical panel as possible. Most panels provide a dedicated "service outlet" adjacent to them.

 

Please keep in mind that the "Scene Test" is intended to be a worst case test of your system. If you get good results with this, you'll normally have few problems operating the system under normal conditions. Determining whether to proceed here is (obviously) up to you.

 

With that said, I do get periodic "Cannot communicate with XXX" messages during the night. The devices with problems have dimmable CFL's attached and operate at night (Entry lamps). Since I know the cause of the errors, I put up with the messages until I can find a better dimmable CFL.

 

Long Answer

 

I based the above conclusion on the following -

1) You have mostly incandescent lamps installed. Turning these on will cause some additional noise from the dimmer (impulse noise) and will also degrade the Insteon signal to a certain degree. It should not prevent the PLM from hearing responses if the PLM is placed in a "good location".

2) Your scene test results indicate varying degrees of success/failure across multiple circuits/areas of your home. The common element in these tests is your PLM.

3) Turning on devices with no load attached (including your KPL sub button) should have no effect on the system performance. The failures are simply due to the noise/signal environment changing at the PLM.

 

The following is a simulation of two Circuits in my home. The upper circuit is simple lighting controlled by SWL's and KPL's.

 

 

Lighting Circuit Voltage Levels (Lights ON)

The voltage plot shows my PLM output (3.2 V) and the signal level at the SWL's with the lighting loads turned on. Signal levels are very acceptable at around 1.8V (typical X10 systems are deemed acceptable at over 0.1 V).

 

The conclusion here is that turning on Incandescent loads should not affect the communication performance unless you have bad connections on the circuit.

 

 

 

 

 

Outlet Circuit Voltage Levels (Lights on)

 

The following plot shows signal levels on my family room outlets. This is the lower circuit in the diagram and includes my A/V center. Signal levels are lower at my Lamplinc due to the presence of EMC filtering in my A/V components. The difference here is that the level really doesn't vary as a result of the lighting load. The predominant load on the circuit is due to the EMC filter - it is present at all times.

 

Again the levels are very acceptable and the levels will not vary significantly with the lighting load.

 

 

The above shows communication levels when transmitting from the PLM to the remote devices. Things will be different when the direction is reversed. If your PLM is placed in a "good area" (low noise/signal absorption) the levels should be similar. If you have an absorber near the PLM the signal can be degraded significantly. If you have a noise source near the PLM, it will desensitize itself to the noise (adjust it's AGC circuit) and possibly not be able to hear the incoming transmission.

 

I ran it twice earlier and got the same result. I just ran it now and this time got a different result (2 switches failed). I went through all of the switches and I got a success by turning off a different switch. Then I tried that one a second time and it failed.

 

The only thing that is very consistent is that it fails with them all on and passes with them all off. This is 100%

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi IndyMike,

 

Wow, this is excellent! I was going to suggest PLM issues as well but it was basically based on experience. Thanks so very much!

 

Hi apostolakisl,

 

Based on the input from IndyMike, would it be possible to change the location of your PLM?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[apostolakisl]

I will try moving the PLM around. The troulbe is the ISY needs to be in the room it is in. At present it is plugged into what I believe is an otherwise unused circuit (washing machine outlet in an "accessory" laundry room).

 

I have a 100 foot extension so I will try different plugs. The panel does not have any outlets right off of it and plus the extension cord wouldn't make it that far anyway.

 

It appears you have an oscilliscope. Have you found this to be a valuable investment? Are there any oscilliscopes out there that would be sufficient for pinning down signal noise that don't cost many hundreds or even thousands? I have seen some on ebay made in china cheapos but fear that they would be useless.

[IndyMike]

Hello apostolakisl,

 

I see two problems in the following -

1) If this room was originally wired as a laundry, the circuit is likely protected by a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter). These devices sense current imbalances between the hot and neutral using a differential transformer. The inductance in this transformer can significantly lower X10 and Insteon signal levels.

 

2) It sounds as if this room is quite a distance from your electrical panel. Signals to/from the PLM must transfer back to the panel before being distributed to other circuits (unless you have an AP on this circuit). Wire length and installed signal absorbers are your enemy here.

 

If you are using an extension cord to re-locate the PLM, try to find a circuit physically close to the panel (reduce wiring distance to the panel). Do not use a Kitchen, Bath, Garage, or BSMT circuit as these are normally GFCI protected.

 

Depending on the age of your home, your bedroom outlets may be protected by AFCI devices (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters). These can have the same effect as the GFCI's.

 

An alternative to the above would be to move one of your accesspoints to the same circuit as the PLM. I do not have a lot of experience with the AP's and the "scene test" as I use a hardwired coupler at my load panel.

 

I will try moving the PLM around. The troulbe is the ISY needs to be in the room it is in. At present it is plugged into what I believe is an otherwise unused circuit (washing machine outlet in an "accessory" laundry room).

 

I have a 100 foot extension so I will try different plugs. The panel does not have any outlets right off of it and plus the extension cord wouldn't make it that far anyway.

 

The above plots were from a simulation package (LTspice - Freeware from Linear Technology). I do have oscilloscopes and have used them to some degree in troubleshooting X10 transmissions. Using an oscilloscope with Insteon is difficult due to the multiple "HOP" nature of the communication. It can be very difficult to determine "who" is talking when. There is also a fair amount of ancillary equipment required to isolate the scope and filter out the 60 Hz AC signal. In short, I would not recommend this unless you have other uses for the device.

 

There were a number of X10 troubleshooting tools available, but most have gone out of production. Jeff Volp has developed a nice X10 tool that has received high marks from X10 users. I do not have direct experience with this device, but believe is could be used for Insteon to some degree.

 

I believe that Brian_H has one of Jeff's X10 signal testers. He may be able to provide more information on it's use with Insteon.

 

 

It appears you have an oscilliscope. Have you found this to be a valuable investment? Are there any oscilliscopes out there that would be sufficient for pinning down signal noise that don't cost many hundreds or even thousands? I have seen some on ebay made in china cheapos but fear that they would be useless.

[apostolakisl]

The outlet the plm was normally plugged into is in the attic and is intended for technicians working on the HVAC unit. (My attic is inside the insulated space of the house.) I have setup that attic space as my command central with my whole house AV, Elk M1, server, video surveilance, internet, phone, and of course ISY hubbing there.

 

I picked the washer outlet (not a plug near the washer but the one meant for the actual machine) becuase it is a dedicated run back to the panel. There is no GFI on it unless it is in the breaker box (there are 4 of them in the box, no label of course). It isn't all that far from the panel "as the crow flies" (at most 50 ft) but becuase of the way the house is it is a long way for an extension cord. Anyway, I have since tried other outlets with that extension cord and haven't found much, if any, difference.

 

The house is new 2 years ago, so no old stuff.

 

So I guess I won't buy an oscilliscope. I was hoping to locate noise on the line, not try and track Insteon traffic. This guessing game trial/error is for the birds. Especially when the noise level isn't high enough to conistently cause problems. I once had a transformer that caused complete failure. That was easy to spot. This is frustrating.

[Brian H]

Is all that electronic equipment filtered so it does not make power line noise or absorb Insteon signals?

[apostolakisl]

No, but other than the Elk, I have shut it all off and nothing seems to be any different. Most of the time the AV stuff is off. The Elk is using the actual Elk power supply which I would assume is a quality transformer. I guess I could unplug it too for a while since it has a battery. I suppose I could try unplugging all of the stuff since they do still draw some current even when off.

 

I don't have high hopes, though, after plugging the 100 ft cord into a number of locations and not seeing any changes. I'll try anyway

[Michel Kohanim]

apostolakisl,

 

Please do not lose hope. I have yet to see an installation that we could not figure out the cause of communications errors (hopefully, yours will not be an exception).

 

Is there a pattern to the errors (i.e. some segment of the house is worse than others?).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[LeeG]

apostolakisl

 

First, you should have all that equipment on a FilterLinc. Depending on the current draw one 10A FilterLinc is all that is generally necessary.

 

Second, when testing whether equipment is causing a problem you have to unplug each device. Turning them Off but leaving them plugged in leaves the power supply connected and that is where the problems exists. This is true for TVs, cell phone chargers, also.

 

Lee

[apostolakisl]

I ordered an Insteon filterlinc. At $30 plus shipping I will not fret to put it on the power bar feeding all of that stuff.

 

But I am not going to spend $30+shipping on every silly little wall wart around the house.

 

Any comments on these?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/X-10-4-Pack-PRO-Noi ... 255a773fd5

 

I did put an x10 hardwired noise filter on a set of low voltage lights that were totally crashing the system and that worked fine. I assume this is the same technology.

[LeeG]

apostolakisl

 

I must have more than a dozen wall warts scattered around the house and none are causing a problem here. Of course if one was powering a particular brand of cell phone charger that would be a different story. In addition to putting a FilterLinc on all the PC/UPS stuff that is clustered where the ISY PLM is plugged I found a flat screen LCD TV was creating some problems and put a FilterLinc on it.

 

Unfortunately there are no absolutes when it comes to powerline interference. Some devices generate noise, some attenuated the Insteon signals. Either results in lower quality powerline communication. Some folks turn Off circuit breakers to locate circuits that are a problem. When a circuit being Off improves reliability then analyze what is on the circuit. I prefer unplugging devices (just turning them off is not enough) until I find the problem device. Follow the Smarthome forum. It is a good source for information on problem devices. You can find may examples of powerline interference and what various users had to do to find and resolve each problem. Even the fan on a new AC unit was causing one user a problem. It was rather obvious because the problems started when the AC was replaced.

 

CFLs and low voltage LEDS can be a problem. I have several CFLs in the basement that cause no problem at all. I guess it varies by manufacturer. Through the process of elimination and isolation eventually all the problem devices will be identified.

 

I keep a few FilterLincs on hand just in case. They are not expensive compared to the total Insteon investment and can make a significant difference when a problem device is identified.

 

Lee

[Brian H]

Just don't push the XPPFs to their rated 5 amps.

They seem to get warm if pushed too hard.

As a test I ran one at about 4.5 amps and it got very warm and the internal coil forms started to distort.

 

Things like CFLs and switching type wall warts would be fine.

X10 and Insteon signal power line frequency's are close enough for the XPPF to work.

[apostolakisl]

So I install the filter linc on that whole bank of AV and HA equipment. The system has run for 48 hours now without any fail to communicate errors! Yeah.

 

It still doesn't pass the scene tests though. I guess who cares as long as it executes properly I am not going to lose sleep over it.

 

I am now almost 100% done replacing all of my insteon devices from the pre-paddle issue correction days (that is all of my devices, some now for the second time). I have been doing it about 5 at a time every couple weeks for months. I am down to the last 5 out of about 60. What a pain. Thank God it is almost done and I pray that I never again have to R&R another switch. At least now they all look the same and can adjust led levels.

 

I also thank God for ISY. Without the "replace with" command there is just no way!!!!!

[LeeG]

There have been multiple posts indicating the Scene test uses only 1 Hop for the test. Does anyone know how this is accomplished? The PLM serial command (0261) that initiates a Group sequence does not have a mechanism for specifying Hop count (no Flags field in 0261 as with a Direct command 0262). The Admin Console could be checking the final Hop count to determine pass/fail but I can find no way for the ISY to cause a Group sequence to use only 1 Hop.

[IndyMike]

Hello apostolakisl,

 

Glad to that the filter solved your "intermittent" communication issues. I wasn't sure if you wanted to further pursue the scene test responses. I saw your post in another thread that seemed to indicate you wanted to take this further.

 

Where we left off (summarizing):

1) You had multiple scenes that would respond well to the scene test when the loads were off. They would fail when the loads were on. Turning on loads will reduce signal levels on a given circuit. It should not cause a communication failure unless there are other significant problems on that circuit.

 

2) The attached loads were incandescent. Incandescent loads are very communication friendly. An incandescent load on a dimmer will produce Impulse noise, but it is far outside the Insteon communication window.

 

3) The scenes themselves were across widely spaced areas of your home (family room, bedrooms, halls).

 

4) You have no V.35 devices installed.

 

Since you were experiencing problems across multiple areas of your home we began to focus on the location of your PLM. You re-located your PLM to a 120V outlet in your laundry room since this appeared to be a dedicated run. If this outlet is not on a GFCI, it would appear to be a good choice. If it is on a GFCI (at the panel) it is a very bad choice (please verify).

I am not clear on whether your A/C component filter solved your "intermittent" problems when the PLM was installed in the A/V area or the laundry room. Please specify.

If we assume that your A/V components were affecting the PLM when the PLM was installed in the laundry area either:

 

1) that's a nasty noise source or

2) It wasn't affecting the PLM - you have another source that is affecting the PLM or an Accesspoint.

 

 

There are a number of additional things we did not cover:

1) Do you have any X10 Boosterlincs or boosterlinc enabled devices installed?

 

2) Approximate Sq footage of your home and year of construction.

 

3) Number of load panels and service size (200A, 400A, etc).

 

4) Method and quantity of phase couplers (Accesspoints, passive couplers, etc).

 

5) Type of PLM (2412S, 2413S) and firmware version.

 

6) Any dimmable CFL's installed and location.

 

Sorry for all the questions - hopefully this will lead us in a direction.

 

IM

[apostolakisl]

Thanks for the help everyone. Following Justincool thread the point about Insteon traffic and the fact that when you run a scene test it can trigger programs causing traffic that messes with the scene test seems to have been my issue.

 

It makes sense now that they pass when the scene is off. The first thing a scene test does to an "on" scene is turn off the devices. The change in status triggers programs causing traffic and thus the failure.

 

I think there was also some noise comming from that bank of AV equipment which the filterlinc seems to have taken care of. I have had a couple of "failure to communicate" messages but not many and they all came at once. For some reason I had about 4 occur in a twelve hour span from about 6pm and into the night. ?????? What noise could that have been? Haven't had any since. Nothing new was going on and nothing was discontinued the next day to make it stop. I brow beated the wife and kids and they promise nothing new was plugged in or removed. ???

 

And to answer the above

1) No x10 stuff at all

2) 6000sf

3) Two 200 amp panels (main breaker only) near the pole running to 3 subpanels in the houe. I live on 7 acres and the electricians ran the above ground wire to a set of panels about 20 feet from the pole down by the street and then the wire runs underground to the house.

4) I have several (I think 4) Insteon RF phase couplers plugged in around the house.

5) 2412s PLM which is about 1 year old v85

6) Only 3 CFL's and they aren't dimmable.