apostolakisl

I wrote those programs, so maybe it is my fault that ISY has not integrated this function into the firmware. I agree, it would be nice if ISY firmware had permanent variables for all of the parameters of date and time. To those programs I have since added variables for hour and minute of day which allows comparison of a time of day to a variable instead of a set value. If you are interested, I posted those a couple weeks ago to another thread.

The barometer is now working on all sites I have checked. I still think the label for "forecast for next 24 hours" is very misleading, or actually just plain wrong. It may be meteorologist secret code talk for 7am to 7am, but ISY users are not members of that club and would have no way of knowing that without putting questions up on this forum over and over. I suggest labeling it in a way that correctly defines what it is (like "24 hour forecast ending next 7am". It says my irrigation requirement is 58 inches. ??? All sites I go to say that same number.

I have noticed many stations are reporting 0 for barometer even though I can directly access those stations and see that they are recording barometer. On the flip side, others are showing barometer. It would appear to me that "forecast for next 24 hours" is really a poor label. I think it would be more accurate to say "forecast for today". . . if it is indeed 24 hours starting at the most recent past 7am.

I look forward to you exporting all your profiles.

The data is coming from someones weather station. It could be wrong. Like 6 inches of rain. 0 psi means they don't have a barometer or it isn't reporting. Pick another station. I am rather vague on what forecast for tomorrow as compared to forecast for next 24 hours means. They seam like they should be pretty much the same. But oddly they are quite different. Like my 24 hour forecast says high of 95 and the forecast for tomorrow says high of 90. At this time of day, the high for tomorrow and the high for the next 24 hours would be the same.

From sunrise to sunset is what you would say in ISY. It offers a lot more flexibility because you can do sunrise/sunset plus or minus a period of time of your choosing. At sunset it is still quite light for another 10 or 20 minutes, so you might want your outdoor lights to wait a few minutes. On the other hand, inside the house you might want the lights to come on a few minutes before sunset. Also, please note that the "wait" clause in your programs will be stopped if the elk zone changes state and the program will start all over from scratch. So, if the wait is partially complete and you open or close that zone, the program will just stop where it is and start all over.

1) Shouldn't be, however, you can wire the valve for normally open or normally closed. In other words, if you expect the valve to usually be on, then wire it so that the relay coil is off when you want the water on. It all comes down to the red and white wire. Apply power to the red to close it; white to open it. So with a double pole relay, connect the normally closed side up to white if your valve is expected to usually be open, or vice-versa. 2) Yes, there will always be 12v going to the valve. Although you could shut the power off once it is open or closed all the way, but there is no reason to do this and it would only add one more switch. It has 2 control wires which act as both the signal and the power for the actuator. You apply 12v to one side, it opens; apply 12 v to the other, it closes. There are no springs or anything else opening and closing the valve, so if you cut power, it will just stop where it is. 3) I have the original wsv. It is not a waterproof item. The wsv2 lists "outdoor" in it's spec sheet, so I guess that means it has some resistance to getting wet. But I would still take great care to keep it dry. A sealed sprinkler box that is above grade should do the trick.

The thing is this wouldn't save much. Heat loss is all about the temp delta from inside the insulated pipe to outside the pipe. As you slow the pump down, the end of the line will end up being cooler, but if it is much cooler, then you defeated the whole purpose of this thing. So, in short you are going to run it fast enough to keep the water at the end of the line hot, and thus the delta will still be there and heat loss will still be there. Presumably the pump would use fewer watts at a lower speed and that would be the bulk of your savings. I doubt that the wattage difference would be much, however. Perhaps the pump life would be extended? Or if the pump wasn't intended to run at slower speeds at might be shortened. You would need to know the details on your pump.

Your pipes are running in your crawl space, which is probably reasonably close to house temp. The length of line is irrelevant. Hot water pipe insulation is pretty much a standard. And that is about how long it takes my pipes to cool which are running at house temp with standard hot water pipe insulation.

A couple of things... -I have now incorporated from 5AM to 6AM into the programs. If I go on vacation it will continue to run during that time but not if the alarm is armed. -I have a pretty sophisticated Grundfos Alpha pump and I'd rather not turn it off and on every two minutes. Also, keep in mind, if the pump runs 2 minutes the electric heater is flushed with cooler water and will run for 20 min since it has a 20 min reheat time. The pump is 16 watts and the electric tank is ~1400 watts so the electric heater is my main concern money wise. Why are you using the electric heater? If you are going to shut down the recirc pump for 20 minutes at a time, you can just circulate through the on demand tank. Probably at most you might see a half dozen extra cycles on your on-demand tank per day based on a wait time of 20 minutes and only triggering on those lights being on. Also, the 20 minute off time should give plenty of time for the water to cool sufficiently for it to kick on the on demand heater. If you set your on-demand at around 130, then after 20 minutes of sitting in the lines, I would think the water would drop to around 100 or so. Really the only piece of the puzzle missing is that you could put a temp probe on the water line and only let the program run if the temp is lower than 105 or so. A webcontrol board plus a one-wire temp probe would easily do that for about $40.

I think the deal was that he wanted the water to stay warm while the room was in use, even if the water wasn't in use. This would only heat it initially. But for the most part, I would think that in a bathroom, you would actually only need it heated initially and then once you got in there you would actually be using the water which would keep it hot. The kitchen could be different. I don't disagree with the logic of the alarm, except ISY gets the status wrong on devices sometimes (comm issues), so I don't think it is a bad way to override an incorrect Insteon status. I have never had ISY get the alarm system status wrong (mostly since it is not an Insteon comm).

I ended up going with a program like this but altered the wait times a little. Thanks for the help! What is going to stop the repeat? Once it gets going in the repeat, if the first program triggers false, there is nothing to stop it until the first program becomes true. While your first program will shut the pump off when all the lights are turned off, this repeat will turn it back on again within 40 minutes. For example, the else clause is running in program 2, someone turns the light off. The first program turns false, it runs the else and turns the pump off. But the else clause in program 2 is still running. If at that point you left he house on vacation, your else clause repeat would never stop. The 20 minutes on 20 minutes off still makes no sense from the standpoint of the goal of having hot water at the faucet. You should either have it or not, not be in some random state where you might have warm water in the kitchen or you might not depending on the random nature of when you turn the faucet on.

I believe he has a separate loop from the sounds of it. The logic you refer to is what we are trying to create here. I am opposed to putting a tank on a tankless system. . . all you have done is spend a whole bunch of money to get what amounts to a regular tank heater (all be it with very high btu). To really do the logic correctly you need to monitor the temp in the water line and use that to determine when it would be appropriate to turn the recirc pump back on, as opposed to just waiting a fixed amount of time. I agree with you that tankless have issues that many people like to overlook. I have two of them in my house and wish I had done differently. But unlike you, I have never had the "sandwich" problem. Perhaps it is the brand of heater or the fact that I am in a climate where incoming water is rarely colder than 60. But I never get water that goes hot/cold/hot or even hot/cool/hot no matter what the timing is on the start/stop/start of using water. I honestly don't know how it does it but I swear to you in 5 years I have never experienced it. If I were to do it again, I would put in a large holding tank and heat pump heaters with a recirc pump that runs whenever the alarm is not armed away. Maybe a 200 gallon holding tank since heat pump units can't recover quickly. The heat pump would pump cold air into my attic while heating the water which is a good thing where I live and with my spray foam insulated attic.

You should look at it like this. 1) You run a recirc pump and keep your lines hot continuously for extended stretches without specific demand. 2) You run a recirc pump on demand Situation 1) Advantages. Hot water is damn near instantly at the faucet while it is running and you never wast water/time waiting Disadvantage. You paid for a holding tank and you pay extra energy costs as you lose heat into the house . .. only a problem if you are cooling your house . . . during months when the furnace is on it just means the hot water tank is heating the house instead of the furnace. Situation 2) Advantage. No need for a holding tank. Quick hot water but not instant, unless you have a way to trigger the system a minute or so before you need it (ie bathroom light turns on, you go pee, then need hot water). Uses less energy, except if you are regularly triggering the system when you don't actually need hot water. (ie go into the kitchen to get a beer). Disadvantage. Hot water is not instant if you flip on the light and go straight to the faucet. You seem to be trying to implement situation 2 controls into a setup designed for situation 1. I think you need to go with one or the other as a hybrid isn't likely to work well. Personally, I would go with a higher gpm pump and scrap the electric tank and go with situation 2. You need to look at the on-demand heaters spec sheet temp rise at the pumps gpm, and your typical incoming water temp to figure out the highest gpm you can run and still have the water get hot. EDIT: Acutally, you need to look at temp rise versus the temp of your house, not incoming water temp. The rercirc pump will be pumping water from the pipes at house temp back into the heater, not incoming water. So if your tankless can do 50 degrees of rise at 5gpm, that will give you 120 degree water . . .perfect.

If you aren't going to run the recirc pump 24/7 (or at least a lot of the time), you really don't need the electric tank at all. The only reason the plumbers would put that electric tank in there is to prevent the tankless from constantly going on/off and short cycling it to death with a constantly running recirc pump. If you use the program I wrote and take the electric tank out of the question, you should get a very reasonable result. With 2.5 gallons in your recirc system, a 5gpm pump should clear the lines in 30 seconds. Add to that a few seconds to kick up the heat on the on-demand tank and other imponderables. . . so maybe run the pump for 60 seconds. Then let it sit for however long the pipes stay relatively hot. Then let it re-eval for occupants in the water usage rooms and kick it on again if need be.

The thing is, the logic of running the pumps is wrong (not your logic, I know). There is no reason to run the pumps for 20 minutes. As soon as the pipes get warm, which probably is going to take a minute or so depending on the gpm and the number of gallons in the pipes, there is no reason to keep running the pumps. Presumably, if someone goes into the bathroom, they are going to start using the water in less time than it takes for the pipes to cool off. And once you start using the water, there is no reason for the pump to run at all, the pipes will stay warm. The program I wrote and then slightly modified should work quite nicely. You might need to adjust the on time and off time a little bit depending on the details of how many gallons in the pipes and the pump gpm, and how quickly the pipes cool based on where they run and how well insulated they are. the overall jist of my programs is 1) When someone enters a room where they might use water, the pipes get flushed of cold water and warm water replaces it, ready to be used. 2) If after a period of time, that the pipes might have cooled, and someone is still in the room, the pump runs again to freshen up the hot water. Of course this is only necessary if they weren't using the hot water, since if they were using it, the pipes would stay warm on their own. But there is no way to detect that aside from putting a thermometer on the pipes. If you really wanted to do this right, you would put a thermometer on the pipes in each of those 3 rooms and only run the pumps if a person is in the room and the pipes are cold.

Here is a better way: IF status guest bath light is on or master bath motion is turned on or status kitchen light is on Then call program 2 if clause Program 2 If Elk is not armed away Then disable program 1 turn pump on wait 2 minutes turn pump off wait 15 minutes enable program 1 run if clause program 1 No need for a folder. Program 2 needs to be disabled as well so that it only runs when called from program 1

The locked on condition is always a problem contingency with disabling programs. Also, if I am using a motion sensor to turn on lights I like to put a delay in the non-priority program in an attempt to keep the priority lights response program faster. I am not sure how valid this is but it makes sense to me. Adding the Elk status into the conditions shouldn't be needed as the short pump cycle could just time off or the else could be used for cleanup from any condition to terminate the in progress cycle immediately. This would also prevent your burglars from getting any preheated water convenience. IF ( status guest bath light is on or master bath motion is turned on or status kitchen light is on ) And Elk armed away is false Then wait 2 seconds repeat 4 times . turn pump on . wait 2 minutes . turn pump off . wait 15 minutes Else turn pump off The above won't work because of re-triggers. You have to separate the if/then and disable the if program while the "then" program is running.

Add a program outside the folder that turns the pump off when the system is armed.

This isn't really going to work out very well. You have 3 different things all controlling the same thing and doing so differently. They will compete with each other. First thing, put all the programs in a folder and set the folder condition such that when the alarm is armed away the entire folder is inactive. That takes care of that. Otherwise, I would suggest simply putting all of your conditions in a single if folder and having the pump turn on for a couple minutes (however long it takes to warm up the pipes) when any of those things is activated. Split that into 2 programs and have the second program disable the first "if" program for something like 15 minutes. You only need the circ pump to turn on at first. Once people are using the water, you don't need the circ pump. And, once the water gets circulated, it stays warm in the pipes for a while even if no one is using it. So IF status guest bath light is on or master bath motion is turned on or status kitchen light is on Then call program 2 then clause Program 2 If - - Then disable program 1 turn pump on wait 2 minutes turn pump off wait 15 minutes enable program 1 run if clause program 1 This setup should keep the pipes warm if the lights are on in the kitchen, guest bath, or if motion is detected in the master.

The Java gui needs to be fixed in my opinion. They should put a line through it or something until you hit save. I made the same mistake myself at first.

Is it possible you have a program on your ISY run amok? A program that sends a beep command to the switch caught in a loop could do this.

So in other words, things are going to be exactly the same except Apple is going to extort some money from manufacturers to say "Apple Approved"

Here is the key quote: "Some may not even be manufactured by Apple. The company is hashing out a deal with other device makers whose products will be certified to work with Apple’s system and sold in its retail stores, the Financial Times said." Basically this is what we have already. It is just that Apple is going to do some tweaking of some already existing products and re-brand them. There will I'm sure be advantages, but as is always the case with Apple, you play their way or no way.

Then effectively it is && since I put an actual "&" and the "amp;" Maybe I could delete one or the other and have it still work. I did not check the "encoded url" button and it works so maybe it is seeing the actual "&" and ignoring the "amp;". But, it works, so all is well . I think the key was putting the credentials into the path box instead of using the authentication header, along with extending the timeout. Thanks to all.