UD ISY/PLM Combination

[Vitruvius]

Just checking on the status of the ISY/ PLM unit.

 

I'm a noobie to the forums, but have been closely watching UD and ISY for the past couple years. Obviously curious about the availability of this combo before I jump in, which will be very soon. Can't wait to get started regardless.

 

UD's forums are unparalleled in this market. I will need to use every square inch of them once I get started so thank you in advance.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Vitruvius,

 

Unfortunately we are waiting to hear from SmartHome.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[haroldunger]

Still waiting?

[Michel Kohanim]

Yes!

[ENaiman]

I really hope it will happen - Australia is waiting for it

Now I am curious, is the PLM available anywhere else but US?

[Teken]

I really hope it will happen - Australia is waiting for it

Now I am curious, is the PLM available anywhere else but US?

 

The PLM can be used anywhere where the electricity is 120 VAC 60 Hz. 

[ENaiman]

That kinda narrows it down Tekken, doesn't it?

[larryllix]

That kinda narrows it down Tekken, doesn't it?

...and you have to put your plugs in right side up too (looking from northern hemisphere view) or reverse all your On and Off controls....

[Brian H]

The other issue. Is the RF frequency used in the Smarthome 2413S PLM.

 

Even if you have the correct power line voltage frequency. The RF would be incorrect for Australia and most other areas of the world.

869MHz and 921MHz are the two presently available International Insteon RF frequencies.

Our 915MHz would probably cause harmful interference in your country.

[Teken]

That kinda narrows it down Tekken, doesn't it?

 

Well in North America (NA) we all use 120 VAC 60 Hz.

 

That is Canada, United States, Mexico . . .

 

The following list indicates what other parts of the world uses for voltage / frequency: http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/ac_world_volt_freq_list.htm#.VZlHphtVizk

 

I am unsure how that information would be helpful to you since you're in Australia which uses 240 VAC 50 Hz??? 

[larryllix]

The voltage can be solved with a simple transformer but the frequency is a problem.

The only solution I see is to interface the SH European Hub to the ISY. The N. American unit has been done by UDI adding a serial interface internally.

[ENaiman]

My point was - a small part of the world (20%) uses that 110-120V 60Hz while almost everywhere else the 220V is used. Yet, the PLM is only available on 110V

 

Some simple math will indicate that having a 220V PLM will bring in almost as many sales as currently from North America (maybe even more) and still nobody is manufacturing such a PLM - that doesn't really make sense. I still hope UD will have "that" PLM out sometime.

[larryllix]

My point was - a small part of the world (20%) uses that 110-120V 60Hz while almost everywhere else the 220V is used. Yet, the PLM is only available on 110V

 

Some simple math will indicate that having a 220V PLM will bring in almost as many sales as currently from North America (maybe even more) and still nobody is manufacturing such a PLM - that doesn't really make sense. I still hope UD will have "that" PLM out sometime.

That is only a "small part" by country count, or possibly total world human count. The majority of the Native English speaking world uses 120/240 vac 60Hz and most likely by appliance or load count.

 

As I pointed out previously, the Insteon Hub is available for 50Hz parts of the world and some have interfaced the 60Hz version to the ISY994i successfully by adding a serial port to it. A few are testing it out, on loan, from UDI. IIRC, talk to Mike Ippolito.

[Teken]

My point was - a small part of the world (20%) uses that 110-120V 60Hz while almost everywhere else the 220V is used. Yet, the PLM is only available on 110V

 

Some simple math will indicate that having a 220V PLM will bring in almost as many sales as currently from North America (maybe even more) and still nobody is manufacturing such a PLM - that doesn't really make sense. I still hope UD will have "that" PLM out sometime.

 

No argument that if Smartlabs released a International PLM sales of the ISY Series Controller and Insteon products would increase.

 

I believe Smartlabs is currently waiting to finalize this whole ALL ON / ALL OFF issue before they release the chips to UDI for product release. It was mentioned that one of the requirements of UDI was having the ability to flash the chips as they do with the Z-wave chips.

 

This would allow them the ability to update their product as time goes on and also resolve any unknown bugs / issues seen in the field.

 

To date, no one knows if this request / requirement will be met or allowed by Smartlabs.

 

As an outside observer it appears to me UDI has always had a good relationship with Smarthome / Smartlabs. But it also seems to me this is a one way street and they (Smartlabs) doesn't go out of their way to initiate contact or provide key information unless engaged directly.

 

This lack of basic communication and support has been prevalent since day one of their relationship. Every year there is a new product released and every year critical information is not shared with developers or with a company such as UDI which has single handily made the Insteon product from piss poor, OK, to stellar.

 

This has been seen in the Leak Sensor, Trigger Linc, Morning Lock, Refurbished Units, KPL / Switch Lincs, the list goes on etc. At the end of the day this is the problem with dealing with only one company that has complete and total control of the integral part of the eco system which your wares are tied to.

 

I can see why UDI has sped up the development and support for Z-Wave in the last 18 months. This provides them more opportunity to sell their controllers to users who seek a Z-Wave controller platform with having the side benefits of X-10, Insteon native support.

 

Perhaps we shall see some movement before the end of 2015 in this UDI PLM issue?

[ravedog]

No argument that if Smartlabs released a International PLM sales of the ISY Series Controller and Insteon products would increase.

 

I believe Smartlabs is currently waiting to finalize this whole ALL ON / ALL OFF issue before they release the chips to UDI for product release. It was mentioned that one of the requirements of UDI was having the ability to flash the chips as they do with the Z-wave chips.

 

 

 

I have been following the all on/off issue for some time on here just looking for a final resolution (with hints on a new version of the PLM that seems to solve it), before I add anything that "seems" to trigger it. So my question is, when and if it's fixed would the cure be just an updated PLM orrrrrr is the problem embedded in every device's firmware? (Sorry to hijack this thread)

[Teken]

I have been following the all on/off issue for some time on here just looking for a final resolution (with hints on a new version of the PLM that seems to solve it), before I add anything that "seems" to trigger it. So my question is, when and if it's fixed would the cure be just an updated PLM orrrrrr is the problem embedded in every device's firmware? (Sorry to hijack this thread)

All older Insteon devices have the ALL ON - ALL OFF command within their device table. Moving forward all new Insteon devices will have these commands removed.

 

To be fair to Smartlabs / Insteon this issue has never appeared in any other software - hardware controller in the open market.

 

Based on feedback from others using the test HUB PLM it looks like it's been resolved but long term testing and validation must continue to confirm the above.

 

Which only makes sense for all parties involved. As a side note UDI has indicated any PLM can be shipped to them and they will help facilitate having Smartlabs re flash the firmware.

 

I don't believe anyone has taken them up on that offer to date.

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[ravedog]

Thanks Teken. So it lurks in everything. So might suffer the problem (never have) if I start using any of the battery devices I gather.

[Teken]

Thanks Teken. So it lurks in everything. So might suffer the problem (never have) if I start using any of the battery devices I gather.

 

I would not say that would be the case.

 

As many people know I am pretty vocal (critical) about some aspects of how Smarthome / Smartlabs conducts business, communicates, and some of the products they offer.

 

Having said this people also know I am very honest and try not to be bias when facts are known. The simple fact is this ALL ON / ALL OFF issue does not impact 99% of the population.

 

There are literally millions of devices in the open market and in the wild as of this writing. This issue has never been seen in any other controller / software platform offered by a third party company or by Smartlabs, none.

 

This issue has only appeared in the ISY Series Controller and based on my rough math impacts less than (50) people. This number of 50 is even being too generous because if you track the ALL ON thread and count all of these people it will not exceed 35!

 

Regardless, in the big scheme of things positive results seem to be indicated that the latest HUB PLM has resolved the issue for those seeing repeated ALL ON / ALL OFF issues. Keeping in mind some of the problems seen were human error in terms of programming (looping errors) and supposedly timing issues.

 

Its also very note worthy to state that not a single soul from the Smartlabs (Insteon) Engineers and the very smart people here in this forum have ever been able to reproduce this issue, at will, ever . . . 

 

Of course people have differing opinions as to the root cause but none of them can prove it out right. As another member indicated one of the problems is, we as a user have no method to see all the COM's passing back and forth from the device and PLM / ISY.

 

As they stated, its not that its not there its the simple fact that data is not being captured, monitored, and rendered to the end user(s).

 

The fact Smartlabs doesn't have or created a similar tool like ELA has to see low level signals such as his ELAM. Simply boggles my mind as to what kind of people are working this issue? For all we know they could be all over this and have the best diagnostics tools.

 

But the simple fact is they (Smartlabs) continue to remain silent and not offer any insight as to what is going on. Its fair to say with out the liaison of UDI all of us would pretty much be in the dark.

 

In war, effective communication is key to insure victory . . . 

 

The war Insteon / Smartlabs is fighting is *Public Opinion* about how a small percentage of users are impacted by some ghost ALL ON / ALL OFF signalling that seems to be invisible to detection.

 

Impossible . . . 

[ravedog]

Well said

[MWareman]

Just adding that it is my theory that the high flexibility of the programming aspects of ISY are the reason that Smartlabs only see this event in installations using the ISY.

 

Further to this, most ISY users will never see the ALL-ON because not every ISY user has dual band devices, controls KPL secondary buttons, motion sensors or any of the other contributing factors to the event.

 

Users using other controllers simply cannot do the things we can with our ISY's.

[Teken]

Just adding that it is my theory that the high flexibility of the programming aspects of ISY are the reason that Smartlabs only see this event in installations using the ISY.

 

Further to this, most ISY users will never see the ALL-ON because not every ISY user has dual band devices, controls KPL secondary buttons, motion sensors or any of the other contributing factors to the event.

 

Users using other controllers simply cannot do the things we can with our ISY's.

 

I believe Spidey's Uncle Ben said it the best: With great power comes great responsibility. People are simply unleashing too much power with out knowing the consequences!

 

This isn't Tony Starks *Jarvis* you know but its getting really close.

 

Ha . . .

[ENaiman]

Thanks for your reply Teken

 

I see you are mentioning a couple times this "HUB PLM" - what is this thing? A new device in testing currently? or the "old" modified hub to be used as PLM?

 

I am glad to see the Z-Wave supported because I think I will gradually move there. At the moment I cannot add any wireless device to my ISY - all fail with that error message about link table. I did watch the communication and indeed no extended messages are passed on, no matter what I did. I know that my modified hub could be blamed for a lot of things and unfortunately I am stuck with its current firmware (bugs and all) because I have no way to update it. That's why I wish so badly for a legit PLM.

[Teken]

Thanks for your reply Teken

 

I see you are mentioning a couple times this "HUB PLM" - what is this thing? A new device in testing currently? or the "old" modified hub to be used as PLM?

 

I am glad to see the Z-Wave supported because I think I will gradually move there. At the moment I cannot add any wireless device to my ISY - all fail with that error message about link table. I did watch the communication and indeed no extended messages are passed on, no matter what I did. I know that my modified hub could be blamed for a lot of things and unfortunately I am stuck with its current firmware (bugs and all) because I have no way to update it. That's why I wish so badly for a legit PLM.

 

Smartlabs has provided a modified HUB PLM to a few select few to vet whether or not it solves the ALL ON / ALL OFF issue for them. As of this writing a few of the members who have this test unit have reported positive results and no related issues.

 

Can you expand on the modified HUB comment for the benefit of the forum members? Also what part of the world are you in and what is the power requirements there?  220/240 50 Hz?

[ENaiman]

First: I live in Australia and the power requirement here is 240 V/50 Hz

 

Modified Hub =  an Insteon Hub and a PLM put together (don't ask me how it is done because I didn't do it but there are some instructions on how to make one) so the PLM is replacing the hub's network card.

That is working really well with the ISY by replacing the PLM.

 

Disadvantages? Yes unfortunately. Once you put these 2 together, you are stuck with the firmware they had at the moment; there is no way you can update it. And what's the worst ... you can never be sure if something doesn't work (you cannot add certain devices) if your makeshift hub/PLM is the one to blame.

[Brian H]

The  HUB looks like  the older 2242-222 model. With a serial PLM daughter board in it. Not sure if the daughter board may have run modifications to allow the two boards to work together.

I would think the firmware on the main board was changed to a serial PLM version.

 

 You would have to modify a 2242-522 model sold for your country. As AUS/NZ Insteon devices use a different RF frequency of 921MHz.

 

As for firmware. Smarthome/Smartlabs does NOT update firmware in things like a PLM remotely. By downloading updates to it.

So the firmware in your Insteon Modules are not able to have their firmware updated. Even though most have the internal five pin programming headers in them.

 

The 2413S PLM has two programming headers. One for the main controllers function and the other one for the RF controller also on the main board.