nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 A bit of history:I have 20+ on/off switches (2476S) that were installed 5 years ago. At some point I stopped programming them, as I could never get my controller to work quite right (even with the addition of many access points and at least one FilterLinc). Fast forward to a few months ago - I purchased an Insteon Hub and in a flash, everything was working perfectly.I quickly upgraded to an ISY994i controller. Around the same time, I also moved some switches around the house. Things started to go funky. Some programs would work, others wouldn't. The program would run and the status would show true - but the light hadn't actually turned on or off. I would play around and things would start working again - and then I'd go ahead and add a new switch... and things would get funky all over again.Which brings me to now. The system isn't stable. My simplest program: outdoor lights (single switch) On at sunset, Off at sunrise. Reliably turns on every evening. Turns off most mornings, but not all. I tried moving the PowerLinc Controller to a different outlet and plugged it in to the FilterLinc. No luck. What else might I look at? I will add that this program and switch have always worked perfectly. Each time I add or move a switch witihin my house, this starts to happen. I'm concerned that perhaps one of the old switches that I've moved around (or reinstalled) is causing trouble. But it seems clear to me that this switch itself or the program running it are not the cause of the trouble. ISY firmware: v4.2.30 UI: v4.2.30 PLM: v9E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Hi nkopel, What I recommend is: 1. Upgrade to the latest official release (4.3.26) 2. Run Scene Test (right mouse click | Diagnostics | Scene Test) on the scene which is unreliable ... do they succeed? With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 A couple of observations: - Do NOT plug the PLM into a filterlinc. This will inhibit communications. Instead plug the other electronics (computers and other gadgets) on that circuit into the filterlinc so that they would be isolated from insteon signals. - my experience is that programs are not unreliable. Instead, either the ISY does not see the trigger condition or the commands from the program do not reach the device - reliably turning on, but not off, can suggest the load is causing interference. What are the types of lights you are trying to control? - is your PLM dual band? What other devices are on that circuit? - have you positively confirmed that insteon signals are communicating between the legs (phases) of you electrical systems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Michel, - I had been afraid to upgrade before resolving the issues, as I didn't want to confuse things further. If you think it's advisable, I will do so now. - It's a program running on a single switch that is unreliable (others as well, but I am focusing on this simple one first). So no scenes are involved. oberkc, - I will move the PLM from the filterlinc. However, it was only plugged into it since yesterday afternoon. It was in effort to fix the problem which has been going on for weeks. - It looks to me like the ISY is seeing the trigger conditions and running the programs. The commands from the programs are not reaching the devices - I have one historically difficult room with a bunch of recessed lights on one switch and a chandelier on the other. I've wondered if the load is a problem, but it was working well when I had the Insteon hub running. It's only since I upgraded to the ISY/PLM that it is again causing trouble. I will add that some of the bulbs in this room are probably CFL. - The PLM is brand new, dual band. I have a computer in the same room - am hesitant to start playing with circuit breakers at the moment. My box is not well-labeled and I don't think I have the time to bring the whole house down today just to look for a single outlet. If I need to, I will take the project on. For the meantime, I will note that I've tried several outlets in the room, with no luck. - How would I confirm that? I have access points correctly installed, which I believe would have been confirmation? I have some old switches that were uninstalled years ago and were recently reinstalled in my attic (nowhere near these porch lights). If something is wrong with them, could they be creating trouble for the whole system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 nkopel, The older switches are not dual band which reduces the reliability of the Insteon network. Adding some dual band devices should improve reliability. CFL bulbs can be problematic. Their ballasts can sometimes create noise on the powerline which interferes with the Insteon signals. The fact that some of your lights turn on but not off leads me to think that you've got a noisy CFL. If you've had the switches linked to a HUB then switched over to the ISY it would be a good idea to factory reset the switches and then relink them to the ISY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Techman, The network became less stable after I added 4 new dual band switches. I found that strange. I have many CFL bulbs throughout the house. I was hoping to wait until each died before replacing it. Would a noisy bulb on one circuit affect a switch on another circuit from responding to (or hearing) a command? I was thinking of factory reseting all of the switches. Could I do so from my UI or do I need to go to each switch and physically reset? What steps would I take to backup first? Simply backup ISY from the UI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Yes, access points correctly installed would be confirmation. I was wondering about the PLM in hopes of understanding why a hub would work but not a standard PLM. Since yours is dual band I cannot see why one would be more reliable, all other things (same outlet?) being equal. I would definitely put the computer and all non-insteon peripherals on a filter. This includes any surge suppressors or UPS. Sometimes, I suspect CFLs can get worse as they age. It is worth trying other bulbs to see if this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Techman, The network became less stable after I added 4 new dual band switches. I found that strange. I have many CFL bulbs throughout the house. I was hoping to wait until each died before replacing it. Would a noisy bulb on one circuit affect a switch on another circuit from responding to (or hearing) a command? I was thinking of factory reseting all of the switches. Could I do so from my UI or do I need to go to each switch and physically reset? What steps would I take to backup first? Simply backup ISY from the UI? When the CFL's go bad it's usually due to the ballast failing which could be a source of your interference. The switches need to be factory reset at the switch, usually by pulling out the air gaps, then pushing it in and holding it until the switch beeps, continue holding the air gap in until the beeping stops. Then you'll need to do a device restore from the ISY. The restore uses the data currently stored in the ISY to reprogram the device, however it's always a good idea to have a current ISY backup just in case. It's strange that your system got worse after adding the dual band switches, it should have been just the opposite. It possible that your more efficient network is now passing powerline noise on to other devices. As oberkc suggested you should put the computer, TV's and any UPS on a filterlinc as their power supplies can interfere with the Insteon signals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 thanks techman and oberkc. i will work on the filterlinc and cfl bulbs. just curious: is it possible that bad insteon switches are causing the noise themselves? trouble started once i started moving the old switches around. and if so, how do i go about identifying which of my switches have gone bad??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I am sure it is possible that a switch should fail in such a way as to interfere with insteon comms. I cannot say that I recall from these forums that such a faulure has ever been positively identified. I do not percieve this as likely, but not impossible. I certainly would think it very unlikely that you would see this in more than one switch. I would start simply. Disable one device and see if this solves the problem. If not, go to the next device, then the next. My gut feel is that this is more unlikely than aging light bulbs, noisy UPS, or some other device causing problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techman Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 It's highly unlikely that a Insteon device is causing problems. I would go with the FILTER and CFL route first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Just curious: are you adding devices to ISY and the Insteon Bridge? If so, you could be messing up link records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I've added them directly to the ISY. Not even familiar with the Insteon Bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWareman Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I've added them directly to the ISY. Not even familiar with the Insteon Bridge.Sorry - meant Insteon Hub - not bridge. If you add a device to both, it will harm the link records of the first controller you linked it to. Insteon devices should only be linked to a single controller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 gotcha. the hub was disconnected the day i set the ISY up. gave it to a friend. thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Were the devices reset to eliminate reference to Hub? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 I didn't do that initially, but i went back and restored the devices to the ISY at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 thanks all for getting me to think more about CFL interference. i have an idea of what might be going on now. will replace a few bulbs and get back to you in a few days to let you know if my hunch was correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Sorry - meant Insteon Hub - not bridge. If you add a device to both, it will harm the link records of the first controller you linked it to. Insteon devices should only be linked to a single controller. I have a few devices added to both the ISY and Hub 2. That's how I get Alexa to control them. So far, all is OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nkopel@gmail.com Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 I seem to have corrected at least some of my problems with a bunch of LED bulbs. I would like to test all of my devices and look at the logs to see if i have any remaining weak spots. Can someone guide me to one or two helpful threads explaining activity logs, scene tests, hop counts, etc...? I've been looking around, but I haven't found the right thread yet. TIA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 ISY includes a scene test. When you run the test, it will display results...pass or fail. Pick the scene in question. Make sure you disable any programs that may be triggered by any device included in the scene. While not conclusive, it is a strong data point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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