Some Nagging Comms Problems Cleared Up

[justin.cool]

Some Comms Problems Cleared Up

 

Configuration  Feb 2016

 

ISY 994i/IR Pro  Firmware:  v.4.2.18, UI is the same.  

PLM:  2413S; Label on PLM shows:

V1.B

1343

Firmware version:  v9B

Approximately 120 Insteon devices:

·      Mainly Switchlincs, Lamplincs, Outletlincs, On/Off Adapters, etc etc
10 KPL’s – about 15% are dual band units
Triggerlincs (2)
RemoteLincs (3)
RemoteLinc2 (4)
Controllincs (2)
Access Points (4) – 2 on each phase from each subpanel
Dualband LampLinc dimmers (4)
Dual Band 240V load controller (2) (Normal Open, dual band)
Signal Linc (2)
Venstar Thermostats (3) with V2 RF interface
EZRain/EZFlora Irrigation Controller v.92
 

House is about 4000 sq feet, two floors, but spread out.

·      Two primary subpanels, one secondary.  Secondary is dedicated to dryer, pool filter and water feature, and some outdoor outlets on the patio. 

·      Both primary panels each have a signal linc installed in the panels. 

·      Both primary panels have Leviton 51110-1 120/240 120/240 Volt Single-Phase Panel surge protectors. 

·      All power strips in use in the house are either filtered via X-10 Pro 20 A in line or 15A plug in filters, or do NOT have any surge suppression or noise filtering.

·      No UPS in the system.

·      Numerous other devices are filtered via one of the above or a simple X-10 5A plug in filter or a leviton in line 5A filter.

 

Further Notes

 

·      All thermostat dongles (T1, T2 and T3) are Rev 2.2R

·      Multiple Sonos components, 3 Play 1 units, 1 Play 3, 1 Play 5, 1 Connect, SoundBar, and 2 Bridge units. 

·      DirecTV with Whole Home Network

 

 

The Problems

 

In the last 6 months I have been experiencing a whole host of unreliable communication issues of various types:

 

1.  ALL ON/OFF incidents

2.  Incorrect scene response: some working about 1 in 10 times, and others 9 out of 10 times.  This was limited to about 8 of my roughly 120 devices. 

3.  SwitchLinc relays and dimmers and Icon relays that were “hung” and required an air gap reset (soft reset) in order for the switch to work again. 

4.  Devices that were “hung” and required a full factory reset, and then the ISY could NOT reliably communicate with the device in order to do a RESTORE or to program each button (in the case of a KPL) one at a time.  (Reported Error from ISY:  “Cannot communicate with……please check connections”). 

5.  While trying to replace a dead Icon relay with a new Inline Linc relay, the ISY “could not determine the Insteon Engine”.  I just gave up on this one and let the outdoor lights installed photo cell control the ON/OFF of them. 

6.  On top of the comms issues, it appeared that at least two devices had just plain “died”.  They were both older KPL’s, (one dimmer and one relay) circa 2009. 

7.  I first followed the forum advice (from Teken) for the ALL ON/OFF incidents, and have set up two devices to help track what happens the next time an incident occurs.  Since that time (early Jan 2016), I have not seen any ALL ON/OFF incidents.  No idea why, but I expect a resurgence at any time. 

8. I then replaced the two dead KPLs. 

 

At that point, the issues in #2 and #4 all but disappeared.  About a half dozen scenes with some 8 devices are now pretty reliable, not 100%, but close to it.  In addition, a third KPL that I thought was dead, (it could NOT communicate with the ISY in order to do a RESTORE or to program each button) is now completely back online, ie I have RESTORED it without any issues and it is now solid for the last several days.

 

Through all of this, I have seen several forum comments about certain versions of PLM being an issue, not exactly for what I was seeing, but unreliable comms.   My PLM is a 2413S, with v9B firmware, and a sticker with V1.B 1343. 

 

Do I need to replace my PLM? 

Get more recent PLM firmware? 

Or just chock another one up to phantom comm issues from dead or near dead devices?  As always, any advice is appreciated. 

 

Justin in Dallas

 

 

 

  

[jerlands]

Your PLM is about 2 1/2 years old and is among the series of PLM's with capacitor issues.  If I were you I'd contact Smarthome and explain you've been having issues for the last 6 months but didn't know and couldn't resolve the issue.  The warranty is 2 years.

 

 

Jon...

[smokegrub]

I replaced my old PLM before it failed. I encourage you to do the same. The expense is relatively small compared with your investment and the hassle you have experienced. 

[Michel Kohanim]

justin.cool,

 

I would start with SignaLincs. They do not work with I2 devices and basically cause interference for those devices.

 

With regards to All On/Off, when motion sensors (you don't have) have low battery, they start going crazy sending on/off sequences every second or so. You might want to check and see whether or not you see the same for your TriggerLinc in the log.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[justin.cool]

Michel,

 

Thank you for your prompt response.  As for the SignaLincs, what is the alternative for I2 devices?  I guess I have missed that topic in the forum....just point me if you would.

 

As for the TriggerLinc.....I should have updated my config....I removed both of them some three years ago.  They were not reliable...I had them in a config to flash lights when the reefer door was left open by the kids.....I was getting at least one false alarm every 3 to 5 days.  So they are history.

 

Justin in Dallas

[LeeG]

Do the the SignaLincs have an external black antenna?

 

If so they operate on a different frequency than all the Dual Band and RF only devices.   Those SignaLincs can be removed, particularly since you have multiple Access Points.  The frequency the SignaLincs use was found to be an issue and all Dual Band and RF only devices use a different frequency.   

[justin.cool]

LeeG,

 

My signal lincs do not have any antennas that are external.  Given that, they are OK in the system, right?

 

Justin in Dallas

[LeeG]

I'll look through my old data to see if I can find information.    What is the device type?  My SignaLincs (with external antenna) are 2442.

[justin.cool]

LeeG,

 

They are 2406H SignaLincs.

 

Justin

[stusviews]

The 2406H is a hard-wired coupler. They do not interfere at all. In fact, they're probably the best device for bridging the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply for power line signals. They're usually wired at or near the electric panel. Only one is ever needed unless you have more that one electric panel.

[LeeG]

As Stu has already indicated the 2406H does not cause a problem.  The down side is that powerline signals are possibly coupled to the opposite 120v leg at a reduced signal level.  That means that signals from distant devices on leg 1 will appear on leg 2 at a reduced level, for example.   Could mean powerline issues from reduced signal level.

 

I prefer Access Points/Range Extenders because the transferred signal is at maximum level.   Not a factor in your configuration as you also have multiple Access Points.   

[justin.cool]

LeeG,

 

Thanks for your comment.  But it raises one question for me.  Does the injection of a fair amount of dual band devices all over the house reduce the need or efficacy of Access Points?  Or are the Access Points still the preferred, more effective solution?  

 

Justin

[Teken]

LeeG,

 

Thanks for your comment.  But it raises one question for me.  Does the injection of a fair amount of dual band devices all over the house reduce the need or efficacy of Access Points?  Or are the Access Points still the preferred, more effective solution?  

 

Justin

 

Hello Justin,

 

I believe there are lots of factors which could impact the final outcome of what people see. It also comes down to what your long term plans are and mind set toward home automation and energy management and control.

 

The first thing is how many Insteon devices are dual band? Are the housings made of metal vs plastic as this plays a huge part in whether the RF of the dual band technology is effective.

 

Next with a AP / RE you can move them where ever you require them . . . 

 

You simply can not move a hardwired device and expect a positive outcome each time. Having AP / RE placed in strategic locations which in my experience is all four corners of the home and every level. This ensures the highest RF to power line coverage for all devices.

 

Keeping in mind if you know for sure your Insteon network is solid with out the AP / RE you can save some energy by removing them because depending upon model year they consumed 1 - 1.75 watts each.

 

Meaning if your home was one of the first using Insteon technology and you have 100 devices installed. That is a steady state 100 watts consumption which you have no control over 24.7.365.

 

Speaking for myself only this was one of the major factors for me when I deployed Insteon. I tried to balance my energy management needs vs convenience.

 

Lastly, with the advancement in technology and better designs Smartlabs has been able to shave about 0.5 watts off most of their hardware devices. This is why I have slowly upgraded my entire home with the latest technology which also benefits from dual band tech, lower energy consumption, higher surge rating, and wider voltage support.

 

Which also helps to sustain over / under voltage swings in power . . .  

[LeeG]

"Does the injection of a fair amount of dual band devices all over the house reduce the need or efficacy of Access Points? "

 

Depends on whether a pair are in range of each other and on opposite 120v legs.   Devices mounted in metal boxes have reduced RF range and reduced areas of coverage.  Access Points/Range Extenders do not have issues with metal boxes and they can be moved. 

 

Sorry but there are too many installation specific factors to give an absolute answer.