Need Beta Testers for Smart Home API v2

[Teken]

I can't tell you what anyone else would expect - but my 'stat also has "AUTO" mode, and what I expect (and what it does) is that when in AUTO it maintains the temperature within a pair of setpoints, turning on the heat or A/C as appropriate to do so.

 

I think the key here is the setpoints -- WHICH one are you asking Alexa to change when you tell it you want the temp to be set to 75 -- are you adjusting the LOWER setpoint upwards (which would turn on the heat!) or adjusting the UPPER setpoint upwards?  Methinks that the vocabulary for Alexa is going to have to be adjusted so as to make that clear - and Alexa needs to refuse to act unless the intent is, in fact, completely unambiguous and clear.  But that's just an opinion -- and as a matter of principle, I don't let my HA adjust my thermostats, because the amount of damage possible if something goes wrong with that is just way out of proportion to the benefit, at least at this latitude in the winter.

 

This is exactly how I and probably tens of millions of people would expect the *Auto* to function and operate. Like you I have sat on the side lines for quite awhile in not incorporating the so called smart TSTAT's into my network. Considering I have no less than six Venstars in my home one would think at least one of them would be controlling the HVAC!

 

Nope . . .

 

I am sure there are differing views about *How its supposed* to operate but in the industry auto means exactly that. The TSTAT is supposed to automatically call for heat / cool if and when a defined threshold has been seen / met.

 

If its summer time I would expect the TSTAT to be set to cool the majority of times. Keeping in mind I live in one of the coldest places on this planet yet in the summer times it gets hotter than hell for the limited summer days we have.

 

What's my point?

 

Unless your home was built in the early 1900's and is poorly insulated, leaky, and drafty as hell. Most homes will retain their ambient internal temperature for 4-12 hours.

 

I simply can't see the actual need to leave the TSTAT in *Auto* when the two extremes are present. The only time I have seen this used in my view properly is when the seasons are changing from one extreme to the other. Which makes perfect sense because say its fall and the nightly temps drop more than 10-15 degree's you would absolutely want the HVAC and TSTAT to do its job which is to automatically call for heat / cool.

 

This isn't rocket science at all but yet in 2016 people are taking what is a proven technology and making it a death trap or a potential financial threat to the most expensive investment in most peoples lives.

 

The reality is all of us are gear heads who love technology and what conveniences it can offer. But people should not lose sight of the common sense realities limiting what should be done.

 

Just because something can be done - doesn't mean it should!

 

When I see people using HA to offer security, HVAC control, never mind life & safety. I just have to shake my head in disbelief at how tragic we as a people have become.

 

To think last week I was at an install and one of the clients actually spouted off he has his smart lock connected to Alexa?!?!

 

Forest Gump Voice: Stupid is - Is stupid does . . .

[G W]

Seems this topic has gotten off course.

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[MWareman]

Hello all,

 

Benoit and I went over this a few times before agreeing on the algorithm. Personally, I think Amazon should add Cool/Heat temperature to the vernacular. The fact that either ISY or Portal must figure out which set point to change is surely to cause strange occurrences.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

Can someone explain to me why they use the *Auto* mode in their TSTAT and how do they expect it to operate? Also, if its summer vs winter time would it not make more sense to leave the TSTAT in AC / Heat mode?

 

Where I am (Chicago area), the transition between hot and cold lasts over a month (generally). 'Auto' allows me to not have to flip my stat often multiple times a week during the bi-annual transition.

 

We heat to 68, but cool to 75.

 

Hearing to 68 feels comfortable to me - but I never want to cool to 68 (far too cold)

Cooling to 75 feels comfortable to be - but I never want to heat to 75 (feels far too warm!)

 

Not sure why this is - so my stat has been in Auto mode for years now - quite often a hot day will require some a/C to keep temp from rising above 75, then a couple of days later needs some heat overnight to prevent falling below 68. Auto is the only mode that can handle this well.

 

I am truly concerned about the possibility of damage to the compressor, since the algorithm allows the compressor to come on when it could be cold - I think that was unintended, but warrants rethinking that section of the algorithm. Maybe even not allowing the temp to be changed if the stat is in 'Auto' mode until Amazon can address the limitation.

 

One other issue here is the automated switching between modes. It's done in the name of adjusting quickly (which I get), but unless ISY changes the mode back once the temperature is achieved then I can see problems ahead.

 

Bottom line, if the stat is in Auto mode - it shouldn't be taken out of auto mode, and since we don't know which setpoint needs adjusting, perhaps an error should be thrown instead.

 

Isn't feedback the point of a test?

Edited June 28, 2016 by MWareman

[Teken]

 

Where I am (Chicago area), the transition between hot and cold lasts over a month (generally). 'Auto' allows me to not have to flip my stat often multiple times a week during the bi-annual transition.

 

We heat to 68, but cool to 75.

 

Hearing to 68 feels comfortable to me - but I never want to cool to 68 (far too cold)

Cooling to 75 feels comfortable to be - but I never want to heat to 75 (feels far too warm!)

 

Not sure why this is - so my stat has been in Auto mode for years now - quite often a hot day will require some a/C to keep temp from rising above 75, then a couple of days later needs some heat overnight to prevent falling below 68. Auto is the only mode that can handle this well.

 

I am truly concerned about the possibility of damage to the compressor, since the algorithm allows the compressor to come on when it could be cold - I think that was unintended, but warrants rethinking that section of the algorithm. Maybe even not allowing the temp to be changed if the stat is in 'Auto' mode until Amazon can address the limitation.

 

One other issue here is the automated switching between modes. It's done in the name of adjusting quickly (which I get), but unless ISY changes the mode back once the temperature is achieved then I can see problems ahead.

 

Bottom line, if the stat is in Auto mode - it shouldn't be taken out of auto mode, and since we don't know which setpoint needs adjusting, perhaps an error should be thrown instead.

 

Isn't feedback the point of a test?

 

I was thinking your reply was going to be a lot different but follows what I and others have expressed. So I guess that issue is put to bed besides the fact the AC shouldn't be called to duty in the dead of winter.

 

Unless its a hybrid  / heat pump style unit which not very many have or use in colder climates. I would tend to think a person would know if the home was in a transitional weather period like summer to fall - winter to spring.

 

Leaving it in  auto would be more than fine as tens of millions of people do this every year. But once the extremes of summer - winter is fast upon us they would ensure the TSTAT would be in the proper setting of heat vs cool.

[stusviews]

We use either only heat or only cool or nothing at all most of the year. But in our location there's a few day over a period of weeks where we need heat in the morning and cooling in the afternoon. During those few weeks, the thermostat is set to auto.

 

Also, the thermostat is set to auto during bedtime, heat below 60 and cool above 80. Occasionally, we may it a bit warmer or cooler. It'd be nice to not have to get out of bed to make that change.

[MWareman]

I guess I'll switch to heat or cool instead of auto, and write some programs to replicate the auto logic....

[G W]

Why is it Amazon won't fix the problem on their end?

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[MWareman]

stu's,

 

Not a problem, that will work. But once you have disabled the V1 skill on an echo, you can not re-enable it for that same echo. You can only enable V2 as V1 is now non-discoverable.

 

Benoit.

Benoit,

 

Here is a screenshot within the Alexa app when I search for 'ISY'.

 

The old version is still installable....

 

Michael.

[stusviews]

My screen is entirely different.

 

ISY Skills search

 

The first and third skills have identical descriptions

 

The new version is NOT labelled as Beta. Hmm

 

 

[larryllix]

I have never used the Auto function on a thermostat yet. The Heating and cooling would be coming on alternating style several times, every day, except in winter and a few days of the summer heat.

 

I like my environment tightly controlled for comfort and that means a heat/cool differential of 0.5 degrees or less. The only solution I have seen for a thermostat being in Auto, is a huge delay between changing modes. To me this is the only algorithm that duplicates the human manual logic used, as closely as possible. Huge setpoint differences are not the answer and I may as well go back to cutting wood and throw another log or some coal on the fire to regulate my home temperature if a wide of temperatures  is necessary. The wood or coal method would probably regulate temperatures more accurately.

 

It would be very common to find my thermostat on with all the windows open to conserve energy in an attempt to lower the temperature before the stat cooling kicks in again. Thermal lag and thermal mass can sometimes be our enemy costly us energy to compensate for the combination. I hate sleeping in the heat and have paid dearly for it many times.

[MWareman]

@stusviews - I think you're using the web version - M y screenshot was the app (Android tablet).

 

Point is - the old version is still discoverable - even though it's not supposed to be.

 

Also, I thought the v2 API combines smarthome and skill APIs - meaning separate modules are not needed anymore. Should we be removing the skill? Or is that still needed for 'ask izzy'?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi MWareman,

 

Unfortunately it is and this transition, although smooth, but has not been optimal. This said, Amazon tech team has been extremely responsive (even during the long winded wait for certification).

 

With regards to set points, I really do the vernacular SHOULD support Heat/Cool explicitly. I remember we used to have Up/Down buttons for thermostats in Admin Console and its performance was intermittent at best.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[bmercier]

Benoit,

 

Here is a screenshot within the Alexa app when I search for 'ISY'.

 

The old version is still installable....

Hi Michael,

 

This should be fixed now - Amazon told us today it is now removed.

 

Benoit.

[bmercier]

Also, I thought the v2 API combines smarthome and skill APIs - meaning separate modules are not needed anymore. Should we be removing the skill? Or is that still needed for 'ask izzy'?

 

Hi Michael,

 

Now that the V2 API supports thermostats, the older skill (those requiring "ask izzy") is more or less obsolete. It has a bit more functionality, but I doubt many people still use it due to the difficulty being understood. I mean, the skill supports locks, and in regards to thermostats, the control is more granular, you can get current temp, you can get the current setpoints, etc. But is there anyone using it?

 

Benoit.

[stusviews]

I use the skill to run some programs.

[MWareman]

Benoit,

 

I mainly use the IFTTT/Maker skill for programs - and havnt used the ISY skill for a while now. There is probably value though for those that don't use IFTTT.

 

Michael.

[larryllix]

It sure would have been nice to know which one to install. I spent a fair bit of time wondering why the instructions didn't work after I installed "the app".

 

With a label including the "Smart Home" name it really confused me.

When did UDI become "Smart Home"?

Edited June 30, 2016 by larryllix

[bmercier]

It sure would have been nice to know which one to install. I spent a fair bit of time wondering why the instructions didn't work after I installed "the app".

 

With a label including the "Smart Home" name it really confused me.

When did UDI become "Smart Home"?

 

For the purpose of clarification;

"Smart home skill" is Amazon's new name for "Connected Home"

"Custom skill" is Amazon's new name for what we called simply a "Skill",

 

"ISY optimized for Smart Home" is the name of the original UDI Connected Home adapter.

"ISY optimized for Smart Home V2" is the new Smart Home adapter using the new API that supports thermostat.

 

It was planned that Amazon would make the original Smart home skill non-discoverable at the same time as the V2 became available, but they encountered a technical problem which is now resolved as of today.

 

Benoit.

[MWareman]

 

 

It was planned that Amazon would make the original Smart home skill non-discoverable at the same time as the V2 became available, but they encountered a technical problem which is now resolved as of today.

Still not resolved for me this morning...

[Goose66]

Sorry for coming to the party late - my PLM died the day before I upgraded to the V2 API.

 

Anyway, new PLM arrived and I started testing. When I say "Alexa, increase the downstairs thermostat temperature" it says " I can only set the temperature between 32 and 104 degrees." If I say "Alexa, set the downstairs thermostat temperature to 76 degrees", it says "downstairs thermostat is an auto mode, aiming for 76 degrees" and sets the cooling set point to 76, leaving the heating settling at 68.

 

This happens for both my Venstar thermostats and my Smarthome thermostats:

2 x Venstar w/ Insteon Adapter

1 Smarthome Insteon Thermostat

Auto Mode, 78 Cool, 68 Heat Farenheit

Tested between 7:00 and 7:25 EDT on Friday, July 1

Edited July 1, 2016 by kingwr

[Goose66]

A couple of more tests between 7:30 and 7:32 EDT:

 

Tried issuing the command "decrease the downstairs thermostat temperature" with both the thermostat off and the thermostat in Cooling mode (both those modes set by successful voice command). The response to the decrease command was always "I can only set the temperature..." regardless of the mode.

Edited July 1, 2016 by kingwr

[MWareman]

If I say "Alexa, set the downstairs thermostat temperature to 76 degrees", it says "downstairs thermostat is an auto mode, aiming for 76 degrees" and sets the cooling set point to 76, leaving the heating settling at 68.

This would be expected if the temperature at the time you issued the command was warmer than 76 - the algorithm currently turns on cooling mode and air-conditions down to the new setpoint.

 

IMO - this will cause an issue when it's below zero outside, 78 inside (auto mode) and I ask to set the temperature to 76. Currently, ISY will turn on the chiller - potentially damaging it.

 

Only solution is to not use auto mode currently.

Edited July 3, 2016 by MWareman

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi kingwr,

 

At the moment it seems auto mode is the culprit because - and since ISY is not the thermostat itself - our auto mode logic seems to be problematic. I am hoping that Amazon would allow for Cool/Heat set points and not just temperature.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Outlander]

Hello all,

 

If you have a bug to report, in addition to a description to the problem, please add the following information in this thread:

- What thermostat it is (Brand/model)

- If the thermostat is set to Celcius or Fahrenheit

- If the echo app is set to Metric or not (In the echo app, look for Settings / <user>'s echo / Metric measurements)

- When you experienced the problem (date/time and your timezone)

 

Please do not expect a quick response from me as I'm leaving tonight for vacations (I know, certification timing is not great).

 

Thanks,

 

Benoit.

 

Using a Insteon 2441TH thermostat

Thermostat set to Celcius

Echo app set to metric

July 5, 4:30pm PST

 

If I tell Alexa to set the temperature to X degrees, it usually works fine and she responds with the correct number.

If I tell Alexa to increase or decrease the temperature, it also works but she responds with a value exactly double of the set point. (eg. 18 becomes 36 but still correctly shows 18 in ISY)

[Xathros]

V2 seem to be working nicely for the most part but I have discovered that the V2 connected home/smart home adapter does not support "Open" for "Turn On" or "Close" for "Turn Off".

 

-Xathros

Edited July 8, 2016 by Xathros