Double/Dual Switches

[jadesse]

All of this is new to me. I have been looking at installing some device for a few months now. However I am not looking for this to be a full-time job either. Right now I am only looking integrate a few light which are primarily exterior. Obviously I am looking at the ISY994i but I have also thought about going with the Insteon Hub. I really have no programming or controls experience and this is why I was considering the Insteon Hub but it has been testing some very mixed reviews. I guess what I am asking is, am I better off with the ISY994i?

 

The other issue is that some of the lights that I want to start with are on double/dual switch's. I believe that I can use these.

 

http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2443-222-micro-on-off-module.html

Do I need 1 or 2 for each double/dual switch? These are just on/off so I would need something else to dim the lights correct?

[G W]

By double/dual switches, do you mean there are two switches on one device?

 

Best regards,

Gary Funk

[KeviNH]

The other issue is that some of the lights that I want to start with are on double/dual switch's.

 

When you say "double switches" are you talking about 3-way switches (multiple switches in different parts of the house, both controlling the same light), or do you have two switches, controlling two different lights, in a single-gang box?

 

Double switch: 

My previous home had a bunch of these installed (usually rotated 90 degrees), and they were a pain as were the very cramped single-gang shallow steel junction boxes they were installed in.

[Brian H]

They also make a dimmer version of the Micro Modules. That can be triggered by a mechanical switch if needed.

Not sure if it can do what you want.

http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2442-222-micro-dimmer-module.html

 

One point on the HUB. It can't do conditional programming like you can with an ISY994i.

[stusviews]

You would need two Micro Modules for each duplex switch. You may or may no be able to fit both in the switch box, but one or both can be installed in the fixture box. But if you're going to start HA, IMO you'll be better served by installing a Keypad on one Micro Module.

 

The ISY does require some skills, but this forum is a great place to learn. That's because, unlike a class that provides general knowledge, each specific situation is tackled. OTOH, you may want to start with the Hub due to its low cost. If you decide that you need more, than it's not much of a loss. You gain quite a bit of knowledge of how the Insteon protocol works with either choice.

[jadesse]

When you say "double switches" are you talking about 3-way switches (multiple switches in different parts of the house, both controlling the same light), or do you have two switches, controlling two different lights, in a single-gang box?

 

Double switch: 

My previous home had a bunch of these installed (usually rotated 90 degrees), and they were a pain as were the very cramped single-gang shallow steel junction boxes they were installed in.

That is exactly what have. Two switches that controling two different lights in the same box.

[jadesse]

You would need two Micro Modules for each duplex switch. You may or may no be able to fit both in the switch box, but one or both can be installed in the fixture box. But if you're going to start HA, IMO you'll be better served by installing a Keypad on one Micro Module.

 

The ISY does require some skills, but this forum is a great place to learn. That's because, unlike a class that provides general knowledge, each specific situation is tackled. OTOH, you may want to start with the Hub due to its low cost. If you decide that you need more, than it's not much of a loss. You gain quite a bit of knowledge of how the Insteon protocol works with either choice.

When you say "fixture box" I assume you mean at at the light instead of the switch box?

[stusviews]

When you say "fixture box" I assume you mean at at the light instead of the switch box?

 

Yes. Virtually all ceiling boxes are round/octagonal and have adequate room for a Micro Module.

[jtara92101]

You could use a KeypadLinc in the box, and use the dimmer on the KeypadLinc to control one of the circuits.

 

For the other circuit, wire the circuit to hot in the switch box, and install a micro-dimmer in the fixture box.

 

You can assign one of the buttons on the KeypadLinc to control the micro-dimmer. And of course you can also include the second circuit in a scene or scenes.

 

Alternately, you could use a SwitchLinc to control one of the circuits. Install a (wireless only, internal battery) Mini Remote with a wall bracket next to the SwitchLinc. You then use a 2-gang screwless plate cover, and nobody will be any the wiser that it isn't a 2-gang switch. Well, except that the appearance and feel of the SwitchLinc and Mini Remote are somewhat different. (Mini Remote has an LED at the top, and doesn't show dimming level. You snap it out a couple times a year and charge it from USB.)

 

I haven't done the fake dual-gang setup, but some complain about it feeling a bit hinkey. I would recommend screwing the bracket to the wall, ignoring the instructions to only secure it to the screwless plate backing. But I haven't tried a dual-gang setup like this. You will have to measure/mark carefully to pull off screwing it to the wall for dual-gang.

 

I had a glass globe fixture in a walk-in closet with a pull chain. Glass globe in a closet is NOT code! And pull-chain is inconvenient. I maxed-out the storage in the closet with Elfa shelving from the Container Store. You wouldn't believe how many flip-top keep boxes I can get in that small walk-in (with 9-ft ceiling)!

 

I installed a very flat LED-panel fixture in place of the glass globe fixture, and installed a Mini Remote on the wall outside of the closet. (Home Depot now has some great flat-panel LED fixtures good for this type of use in various sizes of round, square, and rectangular... They use the same light-pipe technology used in LED TVs. Well, those light-pipes need to be repurposed, since LED TVs will go the way of the Dodo Bird with OLED...)

 

Some complain the mini-remote doesn't work well over a box. (Not an issue for your case.) It can get dislodged and push into the box, and feels insecure in any case. Those people don't read the instructions or sales literature! It's meant only to mount directly to the wall, not over a box! But can be ganged to look seamless.

 

I like to install a KeypadLinc in every room, if there is a place for it. There are some issues with using the dimmer to control both a load and a scene, (if you set default brightnesses different, can run out of range) so best if there is a blank space and you just don't use the dimmer. There is a mini-remote switch, as well (two versions, different number of buttons) but, again, no status lights, no not quite as nice as a SwitchLinc and different feel to the switch.

 

You don't need ISY for any of this. But it sure comes in handy for configuration! (vs. running all over the place pushing buttons for setup, and then trying to remember what you did when you want to change things.)

Edited July 6, 2016 by jtara92101

[jadesse]

Yes. Virtually all ceiling boxes are round/octagonal and have adequate room for a Micro Module.

The issue here would be that each switch controls multiple lights. These lights are all exterior. Switch 1 controls two lights out at the end of the driveway. Switch 2 controls two exterior house lights. So this would work but would want to install it in the first light in the circuit. Please see the attached to make sure I am think about this the right way.Micro Mod.pdf

[stusviews]

Nope. The Micro Module is not connected to the KeypadLinc at all. The Micro Module gets uninterrupted line and neutral and a button on the KeypadLinc is linked as a controller of the Micro Module.

[jtara92101]

So this would work but would want to install it in the first light in the circuit

 

 

That's one way.

 

Alternately, you could use two micro modules, one per each light. That way, you can set the brightness levels independently. (SwitchLinc or KeypadLinc controls a scene. Each device in the scene can have a different brightness level, and when you change brightness they change proportionately.)

 

Any switch can control any module or modules.

 

You do have to have white neutral available where-ever you place the micro module(s).

 

You can completely ignore existing switch wiring. First thing I do is wire any switched outlets to hot in the switch box, as I will use a LampLinc, etc. to serve that function. And any 3-way or 4-way wiring isn't used at all, as Insteon uses signaling instead of travelers. Free yourself from any consideration of the connection (if any) between switch box and load.

[jadesse]

So I have installed a micro Dimmer at the switch for the light my kitchen sink. Everything appears to be working. I can turn the light on both locally and with software. However, is there a way to have it work like a 3-configuration. When the switch is turned on locally, then it cannot be turned from the sofware. Some goes it the light is turned on via softwore, it cannot be turned off locally.

[lilyoyo1]

That's not possible. The ISY will always be able to issue commands just like the switch will always be able to work locally.

 

With that said, if you're trying to keep programs from running if you manually turn a switch on (such as an auto timer), you could disable a program if a switch is manually turned on

Edited September 10, 2016 by lilyoyo1

[larryllix]

Insteon does not use a three-way configuration like the exclusive Or function of hardwired switches.

 

Insteon uses logically OR connected switches to operate the bulbs.

Either can turn the lights on, and either can turn the lights Off.

[stusviews]

I'm not experiencing any difficulty turning a Micro Module on or off manually or via the Admin Console no matter how it was last controlled.

[steelman58]

Stusviews, what UDI firmware release were you using for the Insteon Micro On-Off 2443-222 or the Insteon Micro Dimmer 2442-222? Will they be compatible with release 5.x?

[larryllix]

Stusviews, what UDI firmware release were you using for the Insteon Micro On-Off 2443-222 or the Insteon Micro Dimmer 2442-222? Will they be compatible with release 5.x?

You may have to quote Stu's text to get his attention like I just did to you.

[steelman58]

Stusviews, what UDI firmware release were you using for the Insteon Micro On-Off 2443-222 or the Insteon Micro Dimmer 2442-222? Will they be compatible with release 5.x?

Stusviews, what UDI firmware release were you using for the Insteon Micro On-Off 2443-222 or the Insteon Micro Dimmer 2442-222? Will they be compatible with release 5.x?

 

Larryllix - Thanks.