zxplod Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 And to the initial point. It blows my mind that no one makes a higher power rated fan/motor control. Fans has to be the second most controlled device after lights. How are their not more devices to support them? It’s weird.
larryllix Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, zxplod said: And to the initial point. It blows my mind that no one makes a higher power rated fan/motor control. Fans has to be the second most controlled device after lights. How are their not more devices to support them? It’s weird. If you focused your anger issues on Zwave you would be able to find many more problems. 5 years ago Zwave devices were not even compatible between brands and had to be polled. A very lousy HA system. I don't have any Zwave. I am waiting until they mature as a protocol, and make nice looking wall switches that fit into existing boxes, and work more than 30 feet away. Zwave hasn't progressed in 10 years.
asbril Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 As was mentioned, we are blessed to have ISY allowing us to use both technologies. I recognize that Insteon is better at some features than Zwave, but I must agree with zxplod that I see much more future in Zwave than in Insteon. LILYOYO1 and I have this ongoing (but friendly) debate on whether having one versus multiple manufacturers is good or not. While there are some less good apples in he Zwave market, overall I find it a great advantage that there is competition and innovation. After my PLM blew after a few months only, I gave up on Insteon even though I read good comments on where Insteon does better than Zwave. Many here have invested a lot in their Insteon setup and are largely happy. Why would they change, other than for specific Zwave devices that outperform Insteon (such as locks)? Because I only had a few Insteon devices when the PLM blew, I preferred to switch to Zwave all together. But if someone starts HA from zero (and as lilyoyo1 said can not afford Control4) I am all for going with Zwave. I have more than 60 Zwave devices, including lights, fans, curtains etc and have no regrets. 1
asbril Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 1 minute ago, larryllix said: I don't have any Zwave. I am waiting until they mature as a protocol, and make nice looking wall switches that fit into existing boxes, and work more than 30 feet away. Zwave hasn't progressed in 10 years. My dear Canadian friend, with my 60+ Zwave devices I have ZERO communication issues. 1
mwester Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) I too have wondered why Insteon hasn't licensed the technology -- if they don't have the desire or capacity or capability or funds or whatever, perhaps someone else does. On the other hand, perhaps nobody is that interested in power-line signaling anymore -- it has some serious issues when it comes to co-existing with modern energy-efficient appliances, devices, and even bulbs. But that's an academic question in that I'd love to know the answer, but the answer isn't going to change what I have to do (which is, I have to figure out how to make the most of my existing Insteon investment while gradually migrating to a technology that looks like it has active support, innovation, and a future). As for the fan question -- I wonder if it's as simple as the fact that the old-fashioned AC motor ceiling fan is on the way out, being replaced with more efficient DC motors? The best one can do with generic switches of any type or manufacture on those DC fans is to turn them on or off entirely -- you can do that with a simple relay. They all use proprietary (usually RF) means to switch speeds and direction, alas. Still, despite that inconvenience, I'd not swap my ceiling fans for those old AC fans! I use an Insteon SwitchLinc on the one in the master bedroom, but I could have easily tucked an Inline-Linc in the canopy if I needed to (oops - they discontinued the Inline-Linc, I think -- so hopefully your fan motor won't overload the micro on-off which apparently replaces it...) Edited: "Zwave hasn't progressed in 10 years" says a poster on this thread... I think that about wraps it up for this topic -- the IDF (Insteon Defense Force) has been fully activated and mobilized, and all dissenters from the One True Insteon Way(tm) will be silenced! Edited October 11, 2019 by mwester 1
larryllix Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, asbril said: My dear Canadian friend, with my 60+ Zwave devices I have ZERO communication issues. I agree. Both systems have good and bad but to compare two cars, one that has already arrived, with one that is just starting, is a silly argument to point out that one hasn't moved, and imply there is something wrong with it. Edited October 11, 2019 by larryllix 1
asbril Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, larryllix said: I agree. Both systems have good and bad but to compare two cars, one that has already arrived, with one that is just starting, is a silly argument to point out that one hasn't moved, and imply there is something wrong with it. I read so many comments of people who are very happy with their Insteon setup, and I respect that. I see the comments about the better execution speed of Insteon, but the PLM dependency is a weakness and because the underlying technique is RF and powerline, Insteon should be able to work even without a PLM, which it does not. Your assumption is that Insteon is a better car, but if I buy a new car today to keep for quite a few years then I prefer to trust a brand that is widely supported (and that innovates) over a stagnant largely not responsive manufacturer. I think Yahoo vs Google, with the former once being the leader of the pack and now hardly keeping up with the pace. Whatever Yahoo does is solid, but I trust Google more for the future. Again, I know that Insteon works very well and makes many very happy, but for someone starting from zero, Zwave makes more sense. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 34 minutes ago, zxplod said: Not really. Z wave has multiple thermostats. RGBWW control (although basic). In wall motion. Locks. Etc. Plus literally every device that Insteon has. Z wave **was** catching up but passed them years ago when they stopped devolving. Protocol wise z wave 2 is pretty darn good. Even if there is staggered device response at least there are devices to respond. But again, my main point is ZERO literally ZERO changes in 3-5 years. Maybe longer. As a business owner I know that complacency = closure. It is a shame that Insteon just dropped the ball and surrendered to other technologies. It is hard to compete with a technology that multiple manufactures use but heck, why don’t they license it out if that’s the issue? I just don’t get what their deal is. A bunch of half baked products that barely work well. What you say is closer to being a fanboy than me. I'd rather use hue or lifx which offer 10x better experience than zwave counterparts. Give me an ecobee or nest thermostat over a zwave thermostat anything. I'd love to use glas if they had an API but since they don't I leave them out. End the end, a fan boy is one who will use a product no matter what. Hmmm sounds like someone should look in the mirror. Zwave has improved over the years yet they are still playing catch up when it comes to making a high quality system. They've made great strides in some places but not in those that matter in regards to passing the eye test I'll be more willing to use them for lights when they get to the point where 2 different lights will turn off at the same time or me not needing a manual just to make a simple change....if it can be done at all.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, asbril said: I read so many comments of people who are very happy with their Insteon setup, and I respect that. I see the comments about the better execution speed of Insteon, but the PLM dependency is a weakness and because the underlying technique is RF and powerline, Insteon should be able to work even without a PLM, which it does not. Your assumption is that Insteon is a better car, but if I buy a new car today to keep for quite a few years then I prefer to trust a brand that is widely supported (and that innovates) over a stagnant largely not responsive manufacturer. I think Yahoo vs Google, with the former once being the leader of the pack and now hardly keeping up with the pace. Whatever Yahoo does is solid, but I trust Google more for the future. Again, I know that Insteon works very well and makes many very happy, but for someone starting from zero, Zwave makes more sense. All systems need some type of card. For insteon it's the plm and zwave it's the dongle. I do like your analogy but when I look at your posts over the years, while you've kept the same car, you constantly had to buy new parts to keep it running. Just in your inovelli products alone, you've spent more on that than on a new plm. To each their own. At the end of the day as long as we're happy with our choices it's all a moot point 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 38 minutes ago, mwester said: I too have wondered why Insteon hasn't licensed the technology -- if they don't have the desire or capacity or capability or funds or whatever, perhaps someone else does. On the other hand, perhaps nobody is that interested in power-line signaling anymore -- it has some serious issues when it comes to co-existing with modern energy-efficient appliances, devices, and even bulbs. But that's an academic question in that I'd love to know the answer, but the answer isn't going to change what I have to do (which is, I have to figure out how to make the most of my existing Insteon investment while gradually migrating to a technology that looks like it has active support, innovation, and a future). As for the fan question -- I wonder if it's as simple as the fact that the old-fashioned AC motor ceiling fan is on the way out, being replaced with more efficient DC motors? The best one can do with generic switches of any type or manufacture on those DC fans is to turn them on or off entirely -- you can do that with a simple relay. They all use proprietary (usually RF) means to switch speeds and direction, alas. Still, despite that inconvenience, I'd not swap my ceiling fans for those old AC fans! I use an Insteon SwitchLinc on the one in the master bedroom, but I could have easily tucked an Inline-Linc in the canopy if I needed to (oops - they discontinued the Inline-Linc, I think -- so hopefully your fan motor won't overload the micro on-off which apparently replaces it...) Edited: "Zwave hasn't progressed in 10 years" says a poster on this thread... I think that about wraps it up for this topic -- the IDF (Insteon Defense Force) has been fully activated and mobilized, and all dissenters from the One True Insteon Way(tm) will be silenced! There are fans and then there are haters. Insteon doesn't work for everyone and you are one it didn't work for. There are many that zwave doesn't work for. Doesn't make it a bad system. By the way. The inlinelinc has not been discontinued. https://www.smarthome.com/in-linelinc-relay-insteon-2475sdb-remote-control-in-line-on-off-switch-dual-band.html You're funny, insteon disco's a few non selling devices and you act like everything is gone, yet whole zwave companies have folded yet say nothing about that. Edited October 11, 2019 by lilyoyo1
mwester Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: There are fans and then there are haters. Insteon doesn't work for everyone and you are one it didn't work for. There are many that zwave doesn't work for. Doesn't make it a bad system. By the way. The inlinelinc has not been discontinued. https://www.smarthome.com/in-linelinc-relay-insteon-2475sdb-remote-control-in-line-on-off-switch-dual-band.html You're funny, insteon disco's a few non selling devices and you act like everything is gone, yet whole zwave companies have folded yet say nothing about that. I'll ask you, once again, to please put me on your ignore list. You'll be happier, your blood pressure will be lower, and since basically all you ever do is highlight how worthless, pointless, or in-error my posts are, you'll clearly not be missing anything if you ignore them. You clearly are unable to ignore or pass on by posts you don't like, that's exactly why the "ignore" option exists. Please - help us all be a happier bunch -- put me on your ignore list, and let's move on. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, mwester said: I'll ask you, once again, to please put me on your ignore list. You'll be happier, your blood pressure will be lower, and since basically all you ever do is highlight how worthless, pointless, or in-error my posts are, you'll clearly not be missing anything if you ignore them. You clearly are unable to ignore or pass on by posts you don't like, that's exactly why the "ignore" option exists. Please - help us all be a happier bunch -- put me on your ignore list, and let's move on. My blood pressure is right where it's supposed to be. Thanks for your concern. These forums are for open debates. I don't call you names, abuse you, berate you, etc. I've actually agreed with you from time to time and given you credit when credit is due. I don't need to put you on ignore. If you don't like people calling you out or open debates without being offended then it's a simple fix.....don't post. You want to come on here, RESPOND and say your peace but can't handle it when someone responds back. That's your issue not mine. Edited October 11, 2019 by lilyoyo1
mwester Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 21 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: My blood pressure is right where it's supposed to be. Thanks for your concern. These forums are for open debates. I don't call you names, abuse you, berate you, etc. I've actually agreed with you from time to time and given you credit when credit is due. I don't need to put you on ignore. If you don't like people calling you out or open debates without being offended then it's a simple fix.....don't post. You want to come on here, RESPOND and say your peace but can't handle it when someone responds back. That's your issue not mine. Actually, some of your posts HAVE been quite abusive -- in subtle, passive-aggressive manners. Also, quite a number are rather offensive. And as for agreeing -- I quite recall a recent post where you flew in with a response deriding me for things that, in fact, were not even present in the post! I don't doubt that YOU think your posts are all fine -- in fact, I'm certain you do think that. I see it quite differently, and find your attitude and approach, especially when it comes to my posts, to be "trollish" -- in particular, I can guarantee that ANY post of mine that contains either the words "Insteon" or "ZWave" will elicit an immediate negative counterpost, whether appropriate or not! This doesn't add value to the board, and serves to annoy not only me but I'm quite certain others are weary of it as well. But you're quite right -- just like the loud boorish person at the other table in the restaurant, you have the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want, and however you want. I've asked you several times now to cease, and have offered a suggestion that I think would help. That's all. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 1 minute ago, mwester said: Actually, some of your posts HAVE been quite abusive -- in subtle, passive-aggressive manners. Also, quite a number are rather offensive. And as for agreeing -- I quite recall a recent post where you flew in with a response deriding me for things that, in fact, were not even present in the post! I don't doubt that YOU think your posts are all fine -- in fact, I'm certain you do think that. I see it quite differently, and find your attitude and approach, especially when it comes to my posts, to be "trollish" -- in particular, I can guarantee that ANY post of mine that contains either the words "Insteon" or "ZWave" will elicit an immediate negative counterpost, whether appropriate or not! This doesn't add value to the board, and serves to annoy not only me but I'm quite certain others are weary of it as well. But you're quite right -- just like the loud boorish person at the other table in the restaurant, you have the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want, and however you want. I've asked you several times now to cease, and have offered a suggestion that I think would help. That's all. I'll tell you what. If you don't respond to posts I won't respond to yours. However, since I don't mind disagreements (I feel they are learning experiences and open to free expression) feel free to post rebuttals to my posts anytime. I don't get offended by passive aggresibe childish name calling. See was that so bad?
zxplod Posted October 11, 2019 Author Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) Honestly just curious... Not meaning to be mean or argumentative or anything at all. But, protocol and all aside, even if Insteon was the king of kings and had every device that anyone else has, (obviously not the case but just to focus), wouldn’t you still find it concerning for a tech company to not make any changes or progression once so ever in nearly 5 years? That’s a lifetime in the tech world. I like Insteon too but I think it’s a valid indisputable concern that all us Insteon folk should start calling them out on. It’s like your friend is passed out on the ground... just let em die or give him a good smack and go “breath damn it breath”! They need a wake up call. Coddling them isn’t doing them any favors. Their biggest fans need to give them some tough love and tell them to get on it before they go the way of the dinosaur. Edited October 11, 2019 by zxplod
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, zxplod said: Honestly just curious... Not meaning to be mean or argumentative or anything at all. But, protocol and all aside, even if Insteon was the king of kings and had every device that anyone else has, (obviously not the case but just to focus), wouldn’t you still find it concerning for a tech company to not make any changes or progression once so ever in nearly 5 years? That’s a lifetime in the tech world. I like Insteon too but I think it’s a valid indisputable concern that all us Insteon folk should start calling them out on. It’s like your friend is passed out on the ground... just let em die or give him a good smack and go “breath damn it breath”! They need a wake up call. Coddling them isn’t doing them any favors. Their biggest fans need to give them some tough love and tell them to get on it before they go the way of the dinosaur. Truthfully, I don't care about the underlying company. My whole house is done. At this point I replace devices simply to keep up with how stuff works, compatibility, and what they can do. For me, a switch is a switch. They turn on, off, and dim. Should insteon or any company go out of business my stuff will still work. The magic isn't in the switch itself. It's in the programming and how it fits your life. This is why I chose insteon for actual lights. I live that everything is in sync not 1 device at a time. In ways it's amazing when it happens. Especially when you consider how zwave works. Should I need to replace all of my devices, (which will happen in the next few years) I will look at what available and choose what's best at that time. If it's insteon then so be it. If they aren't around, I'd probably go with Control4. I truly believe in choosing the best technology period for what you're willing and able to spend. Regardless of company... Any can go out of business. If your whole house is ge and they stopped making stuff what are you going to do? But something else. No difference at all
asbril Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 7 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: Just in your inovelli products alone, you've spent more on that than on a new plm You make a good point, though I have a specific reason why I use Inovelli switches. I have 1 switchbox in my home where an auxiliary switch does not fit because it is a concrete wall and they made the space just enough for a "dumb" switch. As it is part of a 3-way, using the Inovelli as the main switch, I can keep the "dumb" switch which then works as a 3-way. But yes indeed I have had to replace the Inovelli switch several times. And yes, I have had to replace a few other Zwave switches over the 5 years that I have my ISY setup. If Insteon switches have a longer life span then definitely kudos to Insteon. On the other hand Zwave manufacturers keep innovating . As an example the Homeseer 200 dimmer switches allow you to program the sentinel lights to tell you something. I have one such switch in my bedroom and each of the 7 sentinel lights is linked to part of my home, and if lights are left on in any of those locations then the sentinel light goes from green to red. And if someone enters my home, then one of those lights starts blinking lights for 1 minute. Coming back to the specific topic of this chapter, I have four fans in my home (here in South Florida) and because Zwave does currently not have a single switch to control the fan and its light, I just added another switch so that the light and the fan can each be controlled by ISY. Not as sophisticated as Fanlinc.
lilyoyo1 Posted October 11, 2019 Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) To be honest, I'm happy for 5 years out of any of these companies. I understand the whys of inovelli, just pointing out that anything can fail. I have a keypad in certain rooms that's there for status and control of devices outside of the room that does what your sentinel lights do. The only difference is mine tells me what I'm looking at and I can take action right then if I choose. No one has to remember what a certain dot stands for (Though I do wish insteon would make the back lights color changing). Whole not color changing, it is a place where insteon isn't playing catch up Does your fan location have 2 switches or 1? Do you actually change the speeds often Edited October 11, 2019 by lilyoyo1
brians Posted October 12, 2019 Posted October 12, 2019 (edited) New FanLinc arrived yesterday and I installed last night. Seems to work good and fixed problem with old FanLinc not working on all settings. I made a mistake in ISY and replaced the new one with the old in ISY (backwards LOL) then spent an hour or so after fixing all my scenes, programs etc. New FanLinc says v.45 in ISY and on the label is Rev 3.1 4318. Fan still makes hum at low and med speed but that is not necessarily FanLinc's fault. I have Alexa spoken setup to turn fan and light on/off... works great except I have three spokens... "Bedroom Fan" (set to low speed scene), "Bedroom Fan Low", "Bedroom Fan Medium" and Alexa doesn't recognize the medium one and turns on "Bedroom Fan" unless I change first to something like "Bedroom Fan Low" or the medium spoken to something completely different. However it still recognizes the difference with "Bedroom Fan Hi" - that's an Alexa issue though probably something to do with too many similar devices and order of picking. Edited October 13, 2019 by brians
larryllix Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 9 hours ago, brians said: New FanLinc arrived yesterday and I installed last night. Seems to work good and fixed problem with old FanLinc not working on all settings. I made a mistake in ISY and replaced the new one with the old in ISY (backwards LOL) then spent an hour or so after fixing all my scenes, programs etc. New FanLinc says v.45 in ISY and on the label is Rev 3.1 4318. It also mentions in the documentation that it is Dual Band. Fan still makes hum at low and med speed but that is not necessarily FanLinc's fault. I have Alexa spoken setup to turn fan and light on/off... works great except I have three spokens... "Bedroom Fan" (set to low speed scene), "Bedroom Fan Low", "Bedroom Fan Medium" and Alexa doesn't recognize the medium one and turns on "Bedroom Fan" unless I change first to something like "Bedroom Fan Low" or the medium spoken to something completely different. However it still recognizes the difference with "Bedroom Fan Hi" - that's an Alexa issue though probably something to do with too many similar devices and order of picking. You have the same Bedroom Fan words in all commands. Try using Bedroom Fan high/medium/Low/off so they are all the same word count and consistent adverb usage.
brians Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, larryllix said: You have the same Bedroom Fan words in all commands. Try using Bedroom Fan high/medium/Low/off so they are all the same word count and consistent adverb usage. Yes that works but I was trying to have option to just tell it to turn on/off the Bedroom Fan without specifying a speed and have it default to Low. I am going to try adding an additional "Bedroom Fan Low" along with "Bedroom Fan" and see what happens. 1
asbril Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 8 hours ago, larryllix said: You have the same Bedroom Fan words in all commands. Try using Bedroom Fan high/medium/Low/off so they are all the same word count and consistent adverb usage. I use Zwave to control my fans and I have Google Home. To control the fan speed, I use commands such 'set the bedroom fan to 33 percent' . or 67 % or 100 %'. These percentages are the ones for low, medium and high. 1
larryllix Posted October 13, 2019 Posted October 13, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, asbril said: I use Zwave to control my fans and I have Google Home. To control the fan speed, I use commands such 'set the bedroom fan to 33 percent' . or 67 % or 100 %'. These percentages are the ones for low, medium and high. Yes. I think these boxes try to translate each word separately and then make the best sense out of the words they can. When you use phrases like Turn on XXX YYY as well as just Turn On XXX, the interpreter is never sure whether it just didn't hear the YYY, or not (mixed in with ambient noises) so they do their best, amounting to guessing. This is compared against previous commands remembered, which adds to the confusion because some have, and some don't have, the YYY word. Edited October 13, 2019 by larryllix
palayman Posted November 14, 2020 Posted November 14, 2020 Anyone using the Leviton ZW4SF-1BW fan controller. Don't think this was available when the last post to this thread was made. Only $49.99 so seems like a good value over the GE which goes for about $99. Paul
Bumbershoot Posted November 14, 2020 Posted November 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, palayman said: Only $49.99 so seems like a good value over the GE which goes for about $99. Sorry, I don’t use the Leviton switch, so I can’t answer your question. Here’s a switch for a competitive price. I think it’s identical to the GE switch. https://ezzwave.com/honeywell-z-wave-plus-wall-smart-fan-control
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