I/O Lincs.... are killing me

[bcdavis75]

So I just bought 4 brand spanking new units for an application.  I got them added to ISY no problem.  Wired up still no problem.  Then 30 minutes later.... problems.  Communication is suddenly extremely erratic.  For the most part, I'm just getting communication error popups in the ISY console now.

I was a little worried about a powerline only unit but I have others (appliance linc etc) that operate quite well.  I'm guessing this will boil down to the classic line noise issue.  But has anyone had problems that specifically seem to impact the IO Lincs more then other devices?  Have you come up with any settings (retry's ??) or other solutions?

Other info:

• I'm Running V5 on the ISY. 
• I am not plugging the IO lincs into a powerstrip (although since I need to have 4 of them that need to be fairly close together, I'm using 2ft Y extensions)
• I have a phase bridge and it appears to be functioning fine.  I have 2 actually.
• It's a big house with an ungodly amount of things plugged into it.  Buying enough filterlincs to cover everything doesn't feel practical... I have 3 garage doors alone.
• There are a done of other dual band device in the house.  I do occasionally get communication error message in the console but but to date, that hasn't seemed to result in things not working.

[Michel Kohanim]

@bcdavis75,

IOLincs are not dual band. So, you have to make sure you use dual band devices for extending the range. I very much doubt the old Access Points (or phase bridge) will work for that purpose.

With kind regards,
Michel

[larryllix]

Try unplugging all three GDOs as a very cheap and easy test.

I found it hard to believe my latest high tech GDO crippled my system. 2 filterLincs cured it.

Sent using Tapatalk

[bcdavis75]

28 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Try unplugging all three GDOs as a very cheap and easy test.

Easy enough.  I'll give that a try.

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

So, you have to make sure you use dual band devices for extending the range. I very much doubt the old Access Points (or phase bridge) will work for that purpose.

Just want to make sure I under this--And it's likley that I don't .   In my house, I have a 1st generation 'Bridge'... the one with only the white LED to tell you if the phases are bridged.  In another area of the house I have a latest gen Bridge which I have been using to to extend rand to my garage which is 60 feet from my house.  

Throughout the house, I have roughly 50 dual band dimmers.  Almost certainly a pretty equal distribution across both phases.

That all should be sufficient yes?

 

I have 400amp service from the utility and I also have solar (just ancillary facts for whatever that's worth).

 

[larryllix]

7 minutes ago, bcdavis75 said:

Easy enough.  I'll give that a try.

Just want to make sure I under this--And it's likley that I don't .   In my house, I have a 1st generation 'Bridge'... the one with only the white LED to tell you if the phases are bridged.  In another area of the house I have a latest gen Bridge which I have been using to to extend rand to my garage which is 60 feet from my house.  

Throughout the house, I have roughly 50 dual band dimmers.  Almost certainly a pretty equal distribution across both phases.

That all should be sufficient yes?

 

I have 400amp service from the utility and I also have solar (just ancillary facts for whatever that's worth).

 

That many dimmers along with CFL or LED bulbs may be a source of concern. A solar PV system with inverters could also be a problem, although my two OB 3600W units don't seem to bother my Insteon comms, so far.

It should be easy enough to shut all the inverters down (battery system? or straight to grid?) and pull all the dimmer tabs to create air gaps everywhere for sleuthing.

[bcdavis75]

5 minutes ago, larryllix said:

That many dimmers along with CFL or LED bulbs may be a source of concern. A solar PV system with inverters could also be a problem, although my two OB 3600W units don't seem to bother my Insteon comms, so far.

I prob have 200ish LEG bulbs in this house.  But yeah, your sleuthing procedures should be achievable.  Although if that's the problem, I have no idea what the solution would be since nothing of those things can be removed or filtered. 

[larryllix]

6 minutes ago, bcdavis75 said:

I prob have 200ish LEG bulbs in this house.  But yeah, your sleuthing procedures should be achievable.  Although if that's the problem, I have no idea what the solution would be since nothing of those things can be removed or filtered. 

Well you should start with everything and see if it works. Then put on groups of things and test again. If and when you find the problem starting again, back up and add one device at a time...or half those devices.

You could have a bad dimmer, one or a group of bulbs that have developed noise problems, GDOs, an appliance or a neighbour with a bad appliance etc..

Break the job down into small sections or keep breaking it in half and re-evaluate to find it. Hopefully it is not an accumulation of things as that can be hard to find.

It can all be fixed but you have to find it first. You can do this.

[bcdavis75]

Other then the device in question just working again... are there other methods of monitoring line noise?  This issue seems intermittent which will make the comprehensive testing you suggest pretty challenging.  Are there devices that can actually measure powerline noise?

[Brian H]

Many Insteon devices have a flash the built in LED on power line traffic option. Flashing LED may start to give you a clue when there is noise. I believe the I/OLinc may.

If  you can find one. The X10 power line testers will show power line noise. Since X10 is 120KHz power line and Insteon 131.65KHz power line. Noise on X10 usually will also effect Insteon power line signals. 

Some electronic devices may not make noise but absorb power line signals {Signal Suckers}. Some manufacturers put a nice Across Power Line capacitors on their devices line power input. Kills the internal electronics noise fine but also absorbs Insteon and x10 power line signals.

Disconnecting possible problem units can sometime help you find things.

[bcdavis75]

Hey guys.  So today I open up the Admin console and I've got a ton of "Cannot communicate with....." messages.  I unplugged the PLM for 30 secs as well as the ISY.  After restart, more popups and my device tree is full of red exclamations.  Nothing seems to work now except scene buttons themselves.

 

Now I'm thinking PLM death.  My PLM is 2413S V 2.2  1617

Any thoughts on how to verify this before buying a new one?

 

 

[larryllix]

I would get one underway anyway. If it is something else you will have a spare. If no fix is found you will know for sure.

[bcdavis75]

I just posted a new thread but the PLM is out of stock! ?

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, bcdavis75 said:

I just posted a new thread but the PLM is out of stock! ?

I don't know how you would find out the Rev but...

https://www.amazon.com/Insteon-2413S-Serial-Interface-Dual-Band/dp/B002X8W4SI/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Insteon+PLM&qid=1601179275&sr=8-1

 

UPDATE:Amazon ad states Rev2.3

[bcdavis75]

5 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I don't know how you would find out the Rev but...

https://www.amazon.com/Insteon-2413S-Serial-Interface-Dual-Band/dp/B002X8W4SI/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Insteon+PLM&qid=1601179275&sr=8-1

 

UPDATE:Amazon ad states Rev2.3

Not my day.

[larryllix]

6 hours ago, bcdavis75 said:

Not my day.

From the linked advert.
"New revision (2.3) addresses issues with hardware longevity "

Insteon has a bad habit of not maintaining a consistent revision numbers system. Likely each manufacturer keeps it's own rev number system, and they conflict between manufacturers.

[Brian H]

My last 2413S is a revision 2.5.

V2.3 has a new series capacitor of C7 and C13. Made to be in a switching power supply. It also has a serial port chip. With a better ESD rating.

V2.4 and V2.5. Have the same new version C7 and C13. The serial port daughter board is a new design. With the later serial interface chip. The serial input and output signals have some surge suppression on them.

[garybixler]

@bcdavis75 You mentioned having a solar system. If it is the grid based Enphase micro inverter system it could be injecting a lot of x10 like communications into your power line. I had to isolate the monitor and filter out that communications at the solar breaker panel.

This of course would mostly be occurring when the panels are active.

Gary

 

[bcdavis75]

Well, so far, the new PLM seems to have solved the issue!  I rolled the dice and ordered from amazon.  Despite the description saying it was rev 2.3, it was rev 2.5.  So far so good!  Thanks for all the suggestions.