Insteon being discontinued?

[larryllix]

Just now, upstatemike said:

There are no cities near me. I am not interested in any technology that requires an urban environment to be viable.

All dependent on visual systems. or some type of electronic tracking in the roads, or on the roads. I wonder how the GPS references work for accuracy. At first I figured they would all have to be but maybe the GPS satellites or I guess internal database, would tell them the exact locations of the beacons, and then the car could visually detect locating patterns  on the beacons and determine corrections. Farmers use relative GPS to plough fields accurately within an inch, or less.

[larryllix]

1 minute ago, apostolakisl said:

Yeah they will, this decade even.  Tesla has cars that see like people.  Just like a person they see the stripe when it is there, but they also see the curbs and the edge of a roadway.  They see objects that look like kids, dogs, bikes, etc and they recognize them as such.  They see signs of various shapes and colors and recognize them.   They don't require GPS maps to know where the road is because, of course, those things change from time to time.  The camera always see what is actually there.  Cars that drive by wires in the roads would be a horrible idea.  The billions of miles of roads in this world were designed for people to drive using their eyeballs and that is the only way AI is going to do it. And no, Tesla should not be sued for calling it autopilot, it is made quite clear when you buy the car what it can and can't do.  Perhaps we should all sue all the car companies for selling us automobiles, since, you know, the word automobile means it "mobiles" all on its own.  The same technology is going to be doing a whole lot more than driving cars.  Tesla is going to become so powerful that it will get broken up.  And this is from a guy who does not own a Tesla.  The other car companies are locking themselves into very rigid "rules of engagement" when it comes to driving.  Tesla is making cars that drive the way people do, but without emotion, distraction, and impairment.

Tesla can't even make their car park itself in a garage without running over toys in testing environments. Visual isn't going to work and other companies have all told them that already.

Driving down a lane on a highway with clearly marked lanes  is a much simpler task.

 

[DAlter01]

7 minutes ago, larryllix said:

All dependent on visual systems. or some type of electronic tracking in the roads, or on the roads. I wonder how the GPS references work for accuracy. At first I figured they would all have to be but maybe the GPS satellites or I guess internal database, would tell them the exact locations of the beacons, and then the car could visually detect locating patterns  on the beacons and determine corrections. Farmers use relative GPS to plough fields accurately within an inch, or less.

Yep, the GPS is there to give it a general area, but the mapping system with an internal database knowing where points of reference items are is what gets them to be super accurate.  I'm not sure how accurate but I suspect an inch or less.  

[DAlter01]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Tesla can't even make their car park itself in a garage without running over toys in testing environments. Visual isn't going to work and other companies have all told them that already.

Driving down a lane on a highway with clearly marked lanes  is a much simpler task.

 

Today isn't tomorrow.  And, today isn't 10 years from now by a LONG shot.   We can say it isn't going to happen but it will happen very, very soon weather we like it or not.  Just about everyone under 30 doesn't care a lick about cars, they just want transportation.  

[upstatemike]

They just resurfaced the main road near my house. It will probably be be a few weeks before they get around to painting the stripes on the new surface. I wonder how a self-driving Tesla would handle that?

[larryllix]

2 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Yep, the GPS is there to give it a general area, but the mapping system with an internal database knowing where points of reference items are is what gets them to be super accurate.  I'm not sure how accurate but I suspect an inch or less.  

Yeah. I know GPS is accurate to about 3m, IIRC. In the relative system, an electronic beacon is positioned as a reference and sends it's co-ordinates to the mobile GPS so that, in theory, both receivers will calculate the same errors from the satellites. Then a correction can be applied to the moving GPS, and a correction can be made. Surveyers have told me they have systems that can correct to 1/8" or finer. That takes smart beacons though, so the system you are talking about must be different technique but a similar correction technique.

Thanks for that info.

[DAlter01]

They don't use just one point of reference for the location.  In fact, I doubt they use the lines to any great degree.  From what I understand the system is simultaneously tracking many fixed points to figure out where they are.  If one is not there it doesn't stop working.  

Edited September 14, 2021 by DAlter01

[larryllix]

4 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

They just resurfaced the main road near my house. It will probably be be a few weeks before they get around to painting the stripes on the new surface. I wonder how a self-driving Tesla would handle that?

Telsa owners I have talked to say it doesn't work without lines.  Telsa's system works the same as every other car system to date.

My Honda has some problems with a single line in the centre of the road or no line at all, going by the gravel shoulder. Even some dirt or a bug on the window cam can throw it off, but it usually knows it, not always, but usually.

Anybody using a GPS in a large city will know they can suddenly think they are blocks away on another street when the GPS signals get blocked or reflect off metal coated glass on large buildings.

Highways? Yes working now
Ramps and city streets or intersections? Not likely for a long time without a central smart system and tracking wires or possibly tracking beacons.

[Teken]

I feel like it'll be a have vs have nots since there well be limited desire to innovate beyond whatever a standard sets forth. Look at ZigBee and all the complaints people have from it. C4 uses a forked version of ZigBee and avoids the headaches that people talk about. Because they want to iterate and keep it desirable, they add stuff and improve on it regularly. Because of that look at what it can do compared to those systems who simply make devices based off the standard itself. Do you think any of them would take the time, money and effort to differentiate their products from one another?
This can be seen with zwave. All these products but what's different about any of them? Nothing really special. Sure, some might have the ability to change sentinal light colors but does any truly stand out?
You lost me with the rest of your post. You're much better than your present example.

Maybe I’m just taking you too literally as to the whole standards thing?!? I’ve presented no less than five examples as to how and why standards first exist. Along with affirming standards in no way impede upon innovation vs sets basic rules, methods, process, so anyone can integrate.

Anyone can see how the ongoing development of BLE has ushered in so many things not available to the public in the past.

Think wireless headsets, location beacons, environmental sensors, I/O to computer systems. The latest WiFi 6 standard has increased bandwidth and capacity that previous generations could not. There are no less than five major companies making their routers / AP to support this standard which obviously hasn’t impacted anyone from innovating.

My reference to EV’s (Tesla) autopilot was to show case why the lack of standards has allowed this incredible technology to be abused.

None of this is surprising to me given mans ability to create vs fully grasping how any technology can be abused or misused! This time two years ago I blogged about how this whole stupid AI technology would usher in mans demise and make Terminators Judgment Day a reality.

It’s only been two years and now we have robots & drones running around pretending to offer security or dropping bombs around the world!

Man has proven there are only two things he’s good at: Taking & Killing

In between this man has tried to create and build great things from art, music, structures, to every known thing to simply make life easier and fun. Standards are created and followed so others may do the same. When none of exists it be hooves us to fall back to industry best practices and standards.

Will HA ever have one major standard or protocol?!?

I doubt it, but the fierce competition in the future may very well strengthen one over the other. One only needs to see how cloud first has literally supplanted local first.

Why?!?

Easy, lazy, low cost, complete control over your audience!

[Michel Kohanim]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

This is why I posted that.  A different sensor system of navigation needs to be created. GPS is not accurate enough and gets fooled by tall building reflections, anything visual can get fooled. Mapping system with massive details would have to be updated daily and cause many accidents in construction or even possible potholes or damaged guardrails and signs.

GPS is only for the path. Self driving cars use a variety of tech including AI based image processing to see speed limit or stop signs. This already exists and doesn't needs street sensors. An example: Graphic Eye (Intel).

With kind regards,

Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

@Teken,

I think you're conflating and combining policy mandates (safety, health, security) and communication standards (Bluetooth,WiFi, TCP, IP, http, SSL, TLS) and content representation (HTML, XML, JSON), and content itself (web page, a service, WiKi) and lumping them all into a Standard. Precisely what I disagree with.

A system, such as ISY, should NOT need a standard to define a dimmer a priori. It only needs a standard to a) communicate securely b) explore (not a priori) what the thing can do and what it can do to it.

a) Communicate securely: HTTPS, MQTTs, or something similar ... Already exists

b) Node Meta model in XML or JSON or binary ... Already exists

With a and b, ISY can communicate and integrate with literally anything in the world without knowing anything about it. And the same ISY with the same firmware can communicate with anything else that may be invented in the future.

All the above already exists in your 5x ISY firmware. And can exist in anything else.

With kind regards,

Michel

[Bumbershoot]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

 A different sensor system of navigation needs to be created.

https://www.transportation.gov/research-and-technology/how-connected-vehicles-work

Not a navigation system, but another tool to avoid vehicular calamities, using dedicated public safety spectrum.

[larryllix]

48 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

https://www.transportation.gov/research-and-technology/how-connected-vehicles-work

Not a navigation system, but another tool to avoid vehicular calamities, using dedicated public safety spectrum.

Wild concept but I don't see 5.9GHz seeing around corners of brick buildings and I don't see bicycles and dogs wearing transponders everywhere.

Thanks

[asbril]

6 hours ago, larryllix said:

Wild concept but I don't see 5.9GHz seeing around corners of brick buildings and I don't see bicycles and dogs wearing transponders everywhere.

@larryllix We seem to disagree..... While I have no idea about this particular  5.9GHz technology, I am a firm believer that the principle of everybody and everything (including dog leashes) connected is where we are going. Some may object and resist, but that is our future. We are already partially there with our phones to connect to almost everything.

Edited September 14, 2021 by asbril

[larryllix]

24 minutes ago, asbril said:

@larryllix We seem to disagree..... While I have no idea about this particular  5.9GHz technology, I am a firm believer that the principle of everybody and everything (including dog leashes) connected is where we are going. Some may object and resist, but that is our future. We are already partially there with our phones to connect to almost everything.

We just need to get deer, raccoons, groundhogs, foxes, skunks, and wolves to wear them now.
Great concept. Time will tell.

[asbril]

8 minutes ago, larryllix said:

foxes, skunks, and wolves

you mean politicians ?

[lilyoyo1]

10 hours ago, larryllix said:

Self driving cars will never happen in this century. Signal tracing wires in the roadways will need to be installed first. Telsa should be sued for using their misnomer "autopilot" . Telsa oweners will tell you it does nothing more than any other car with ACC, LKAS, and lane deviation.  Many people think this means self-driving. It doesn't. It is only driver assist. Other car manufacturers have told Tesla it is impossible without LIDAR and Telsa disagrees.

This all works by visual appearance of lines on the road. Lines can be covered by dirt, dust, or snow or may not have ever existed. Ours are repainted about twice per year. None of them can navigate an intersection properly. People think they can do something else while "autopilot" is engaged but typically the cars will warn you you cannot for an extended period. Mine will purposely go off the road into the ditch if you ignore the warning systems too long. Better than going into oncoming traffic though.

They'll happen this century and if i was a betting man, id say in the next 10-20 years. We went from wood and fabric planes to breaking the sound barrier by multiple times to visiting other worlds....in less than 100 years. 

When you have some of the brightest minds focused on making this happen it'll happen. Especially when there's enough money behind it. 

Just looking at my cats, i went from a2015 BMW 535 with adaptive cruise control, to a 2021 Genesis GV80 which allowed me to take a 2hr trip with me only having to provide input to change lanes and once at a busy freeway interchange due to me not wanting to chance an accident. Judging by how quickly the technology has changed from then to now, my 2027 Lyriq will be that much more capable. 

Now, the govt. may mandate people be behind the wheels or auto companies may require people behind the wheels so they don't get sued but the ability to go from location to location with minimum to no input will happen. I can see older generations not trusting the technology but younger drivers embracing it. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Bumbershoot]

7 hours ago, larryllix said:

Wild concept but I don't see 5.9GHz seeing around corners of brick buildings and I don't see bicycles and dogs wearing transponders everywhere.

Thanks

Imaging systems will have to handle some of this.  An additional feature of connected vehicles is that they can connect to the wayside, influencing traffic control systems, and making it possible for 5.9 GHz to see around brick buildings.  IMHO, the aggregate tools and technologies are becoming available to make this work.  Now the task is to coordinate it all, make it scale affordably and reliably.

<topic=on>I see the model looking something like and the ISY/polyglot model.</topic>

[apostolakisl]

10 hours ago, larryllix said:

Tesla can't even make their car park itself in a garage without running over toys in testing environments. Visual isn't going to work and other companies have all told them that already.

Driving down a lane on a highway with clearly marked lanes  is a much simpler task.

 

Tesla currently drives down roads without line markings just fine (FSD beta).   This is "9", they are on "10" now.

Here is a dirt road, again, V9.

Comparing companies as they currently sit, Tesla beats all of them on random open roads by a lot.  This is like Boeing making fun of SpaceX.  Who is laughing now?  

Whatever car running over toys in the garage you saw, it is likely that it isn't FSD but rather auto-pilot.  

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, larryllix said:

Wild concept but I don't see 5.9GHz seeing around corners of brick buildings and I don't see bicycles and dogs wearing transponders everywhere.

Thanks

Humans can't see around buildings either but that doesn't stop us from being able to drive. The idea of any technology isn't to stop accidents from happening completely, it's to minimize the opportunities for it to happen. 

It's similar to seat belts and air bags. They don't stop people from dying in wrecks. They're there to lessen the chances. If we can cut down on accidents by 50% due to the technology, how much better are we because of it?

[apostolakisl]

16 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

Imaging systems will have to handle some of this.  An additional feature of connected vehicles is that they can connect to the wayside, influencing traffic control systems, and making it possible for 5.9 GHz to see around brick buildings.  IMHO, the aggregate tools and technologies are becoming available to make this work.  Now the task is to coordinate it all, make it scale affordably and reliably.

<topic=on>I see the model looking something like and the ISY/polyglot model.</topic>

The other thing I'm sure will happen is drafting.  When you get on the highway at high speeds drafting will dramatically increase range.  Like double or more.  When the cars are all computer driven, they can talk to each other and effectively become a single minded vehicle.  So you can go 80mph 18 inches behind the guy in front of you who is 18 inches behind the guy in front of him and so on since every car in the "train" will be able to brake precisely the same.

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

@larryllix We seem to disagree..... While I have no idea about this particular  5.9GHz technology, I am a firm believer that the principle of everybody and everything (including dog leashes) connected is where we are going. Some may object and resist, but that is our future. We are already partially there with our phones to connect to almost everything.

So applying that idea to home automation Tuya Smart Life should come to dominate the industry and all devices will be connected in the cloud because there is no other common playing field that everything can gain access to connect to.

This means Wi-Fi in some form will become the defacto standard HA protocol. There may even need to be legislation to outlaw NAT so that all devices are directly accessible from the cloud.

[apostolakisl]

4 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Humans can't see around buildings either but that doesn't stop us from being able to drive. The idea of any technology isn't to stop accidents from happening completely, it's to minimize the opportunities for it to happen. 

It's similar to seat belts and air bags. They don't stop people from dying in wrecks. They're there to lessen the chances. If we can cut down on accidents by 50% due to the technology, how much better are we because of it?

Well, I would say the IDEA of the technology is to stop accidents completely.  Just that reality gets in the way so your expectations set the bar a bit lower.

[upstatemike]

6 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

The other thing I'm sure will happen is drafting.  When you get on the highway at high speeds drafting will dramatically increase range.  Like double or more.  When the cars are all computer driven, they can talk to each other and effectively become a single minded vehicle.  So you can go 80mph 18 inches behind the guy in front of you who is 18 inches behind the guy in front of him and so on since every car in the "train" will be able to brake precisely the same.

Until you hit a patch of ice that cannot be predicted or corrected for in the time available when going 80 with 18 inches separation. Probably set a new record for multi-car pileups.

[DAlter01]

18 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

The other thing I'm sure will happen is drafting.  When you get on the highway at high speeds drafting will dramatically increase range.  Like double or more.  When the cars are all computer driven, they can talk to each other and effectively become a single minded vehicle.  So you can go 80mph 18 inches behind the guy in front of you who is 18 inches behind the guy in front of him and so on since every car in the "train" will be able to brake precisely the same.

I've been thinking about drafting/packing for a while.  I think that may be in the future.  But, it will be second or third generation.  That can't come until all the manually piloted vehicles are off the roadway.