Automatic Backups for ISY

[IT Solutions]

I notice from the admin console I can manually back the ISY to my computer.  Is there a way to automate this process so it backs up once a day?

Thank you.

[Michel Kohanim]

@IT Solutions,

There's no need to auto backup daily because configurations are static. Once you are done with your configurations, back it up. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[IT Solutions]

@Michel Kohanim That will work if one remembers to do that, which is not a reliable way of backing up critical information.  Also, while configurations are static, data, like variables, are not.  Does the backup save the values in variables?

[Michel Kohanim]

@IT Solutions,

Variable values? Or Variables? The former is meaningless since, if you restore a backup from yesterday, those variable values mean nothing. If you are talking about variables themselves, of course they are backed up. The short answer, we have no plans of supporting automatic backup in the near future. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[larryllix]

To further exemplify that I have a lot of lighting scenes, including WiFi device levels, and colours, that are dependent on variable values. If I ever restored a backup containing variable values my lights and some other devices would go to some previous value.

[IT Solutions]

@Michel Kohanim It all depends on what one is storing in the variable.  If one is keeping track of the number of times something happens in a variable, and that value is backed up automatically on a regular schedule, that value will be restored when the backup is reloaded.  If it is not, the information is lost.

If one is storing a value in a variable that is likely to change between the backup and the restore, yes it is useless.

I have programmed my ISY to control my floor heating system (the my ELK).  It needs to keep track of the number of zones that are turned on. Each time the ISY startes it updates that counter as it is likely that something changed while it was off.  I still set the init for the variable to the value of the variable so it will be close to what it was last at at start up.

ISY is very powerful, and I still have a lot to learn, but am making progress with help from others on the forum.  Thank you.

Here is some code I wrote to keep email updates when the zone count changes to no more often than every 5 minutes.  Is there a better way to do this?

--------------------------------------------------------------

Zone Change Email Notification - [ID 0021][Parent 0015]

If
        $S.FH.Zone.Count >= 0
    And $I.FH.Zone.Change.Wait is 0
 
Then
        Send Notification to 'ELk Logs' content 'Floor Heat Notification'
        $I.FH.Zone.Change.Wait  = 1
        Run Program 'Wait 5 Min' (Then Path)
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

------------------------------------------------------------

Wait 5 Min - [ID 0027][Parent 0015]

If
   - No Conditions - (To add one, press 'Schedule' or 'Condition')
 
Then
        Wait  5 minutes 
        $I.FH.Zone.Change.Wait  = 0
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

[Screw Loose Dan]

This is an interesting conversation.  I've never thought of variables as something I'd like to back up.  And, off hand, for my personal use I can't think of any reason I would want to keep them in backups.  I can't see the usefulness being a widespread need either.

However, there is a backup polyglot (I believe written by @bpwwer).  It takes a "backup" of "lighting type device status and can then later restore the devices to those values."  I'm fairly certain it doesn't backup variables. but my guess is it wouldn't be hard to modify it to do what you are looking to do. And to be clear, the "backup" it takes is not saved to a file, but to the polyglot (database?), so that might need to be changed for your purpose.

[MrBill]

I agree with @Screw Loose Dan there's really no values that I need to persist a restore of a backup.  Actually (knock wood) I've never had to restore a backup (yet). I do make them fairly frequently if I've made changes and I know that if I was that deep in the hole and had to restore from one of the backups that I'd probably also have to spend some time making tweaks and adjustments.

Since reading @Michel Kohanim reply above in this thread has made me wonder tho if the INIT values of variables are stored in backups with the names for each slot.  Anyone know?  I would think INIT values likely are stored in a backup but I've never had reason to find out.  If not, then those of us that use integer variables as constants should definitely keep a separate list somewhere.  $cTrue and $cFalse are easy to manually restore, but something like $cRed, etc would be difficult on the fly, and remembering which like variables $sFireplace.setpoint that need a default value,  if the INIT values didn't persist a restore.  So I would hope that INIT values are part of a backup.

As for @IT Solutions worries about losing values, you should of course save/write the INIT value of anything you want to persist an ISY reboot.  For example I have a few counters, and every single time they increment the INIT value gets saved.     Second point, is that once you've got your system set up the way you want it, the ISY is very stable.  I can go months without rebooting.  (before nodesevers, and when i was still on v4 firmware I once went nearly a year without rebooting.)

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, IT Solutions said:

@Michel Kohanim It all depends on what one is storing in the variable.  If one is keeping track of the number of times something happens in a variable, and that value is backed up automatically on a regular schedule, that value will be restored when the backup is reloaded.  If it is not, the information is lost.

If one is storing a value in a variable that is likely to change between the backup and the restore, yes it is useless.

I have programmed my ISY to control my floor heating system (the my ELK).  It needs to keep track of the number of zones that are turned on. Each time the ISY startes it updates that counter as it is likely that something changed while it was off.  I still set the init for the variable to the value of the variable so it will be close to what it was last at at start up.

ISY is very powerful, and I still have a lot to learn, but am making progress with help from others on the forum.  Thank you.

Here is some code I wrote to keep email updates when the zone count changes to no more often than every 5 minutes.  Is there a better way to do this?

 

 

Why would your Isy need to be rebooted? Outside of firmware updates, your Isy should always stay running. If you're constantly rebooting it then you need to solve the underlying issues. 

The key to ensuring what you are trying to do is to have a strong and stable system. As long as communication is good and the Isy is running, it'll keep track of everything properly. 

[IT Solutions]

@lilyoyo1  Tell that the everyone in TX that has been without power for days.

[larryllix]

5 hours ago, MrBill said:

<snipped>

Since reading @Michel Kohanim reply above in this thread has made me wonder tho if the INIT values of variables are stored in backups with the names for each slot.  Anyone know?  I would think INIT values likely are stored in a backup but I've never had reason to find out.  If not, then those of us that use integer variables as constants should definitely keep a separate list somewhere.  $cTrue and $cFalse are easy to manually restore, but something like $cRed, etc would be difficult on the fly, and remembering which like variables $sFireplace.setpoint that need a default value,  if the INIT values didn't persist a restore.  So I would hope that INIT values are part of a backup.

<snipped>

I would say yes they are saved in the backup. When you restore a backup file the init to variables are restored like is was  part of the programming.

[DennisC]

If you feel it is critical to have regular backups of variables, as others have stated, take a look at the Backup Nodeserver in the Polyglot store. It will do the job.

[lilyoyo1]

13 hours ago, IT Solutions said:

@lilyoyo1  Tell that the everyone in TX that has been without power for days.

Anything you restore after days of no power would be completely wrong anyway so what would be the point?

After no power or water for days, I would think the last thing a person would be worried about is their Isy and the last count of some equipment. 

An act of God will always throw anything for a loop. No amount of planning and programming will overcome that. It's the daily happenings that cause the most problems which an automatic backup would probably hurt more than it helps. 

All of this is moot since Michel has stated it's not going to happen

[Michel Kohanim]

@MrBill,

Init values are stored on the SD Card, backed up, and restored. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[MrBill]

15 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

@MrBill,

Init values are stored on the SD Card, backed up, and restored. 

With kind regards,
Michel

...and that is all I would ever care about.

[IT Solutions]

On 2/20/2021 at 8:18 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

An act of God will always throw anything for a loop. No amount of planning and programming will overcome that. It's the daily happenings that cause the most problems which an automatic backup would probably hurt more than it helps. 

 

My business has two data centers.  They are in two different cities, on two different electrical grids, both have redundant battery backups, generators, and redundant Internet, with a total of 3 different ISPs between the two.  When the derecho came through Iowa in August 2020 both locations lost utility power, one for 2 days and one for 5 days, and two of the three ISPs went down.  Since we had battery backups and generators, neither data center ever lost power, and our primary ISP to our primary datacenter never went down (their building is built to withstand an F5 tornado), so we as a company never went down.  We watched the storm live on security cameras from an underground shelter designed to withstand anything except a direct missile strike.

So yes, the right amount of planning will overcome, "An act of God", if one plans well. 

Also, a properly implemented backup system will always help.

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, IT Solutions said:

My business has two data centers.  They are in two different cities, on two different electrical grids, both have redundant battery backups, generators, and redundant Internet, with a total of 3 different ISPs between the two.  When the derecho came through Iowa in August 2020 both locations lost utility power, one for 2 days and one for 5 days, and two of the three ISPs went down.  Since we had battery backups and generators, neither data center ever lost power, and our primary ISP to our primary datacenter never went down (their building is built to withstand an F5 tornado), so we as a company never went down.  We watched the storm live on security cameras from an underground shelter designed to withstand anything except a direct missile strike.

So yes, the right amount of planning will overcome, "An act of God", if one plans well. 

Also, a properly implemented backup system will always help.

That's a ridiculous statement. So you believe because your system did not fail, it can never fail? Our condo in California survived a 6.4 earthquake a few years ago (and many others before it), does that mean no earthquake will bring it down? How many neighborhoods have you seen leveled by tornadoes yet some of the houses survive intact?

Yes you can build things to with stand a great deal but don't fool yourself into thinking something cannot happen. As it stands you have billion dollar companies spending tens of millions designing systems to never fail yet they do. 

Once again all this is moot since Michel said it's not happening

[IT Solutions]

On 2/20/2021 at 8:18 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

An act of God will always throw anything for a loop.

 

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's a ridiculous statement. So you believe because your system did not fail, it can never fail?

Your statement, "An act of God will always (emphasis added) throw anything for a loop." is the ridiculous statement as I (and many others) have already proven it wrong.

I never stated, "it can never fail"

My point is simple.  One should include a reasonable amount of monitoring, redundancy and backups in any plan to minimize the chance of failure from anything. What is reasonable for one, my not be reasonable for another.  Also, different people will vary in their abilities to implement these safe guards.

BTW, backing up to an SD card in the ISY is not a good solution as a power surge can easily fry both, and then one will have lost everything.  Have fun recreating all your programming from scratch after that.  I backup with the Administrative Console to a computer and it replaces off site automatically.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello all,

Can we please cool it down. No Ad Hominem attacks please. @IT Solutions, as I mentioned before (and as @lilyoyosuggested) unfortunately we don't have any plans for automatic backup. If this is a hard requirement for you, then - as others suggested - you can either use Polyglot backup node server or develop your own (it's not that difficult). 

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

40 minutes ago, IT Solutions said:

 

Your statement, "An act of God will always (emphasis added) throw anything for a loop." is the ridiculous statement as I (and many others) have already proven it wrong.

I never stated, "it can never fail"

My point is simple.  One should include a reasonable amount of monitoring, redundancy and backups in any plan to minimize the chance of failure from anything. What is reasonable for one, my not be reasonable for another.  Also, different people will vary in their abilities to implement these safe guards.

BTW, backing up to an SD card in the ISY is not a good solution as a power surge can easily fry both, and then one will have lost everything.  Have fun recreating all your programming from scratch after that.  I backup with the Administrative Console to a computer and it replaces off site automatically.

An act of God does not mean any and everytime something happens in nature, a terrible result will occur. It's implying an uncontrollable natural event which has the potential for destruction despite everything done.

You do realize when you back up your Isy to the computer, you're backing up the isy sd card?

[Teken]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:35 AM, lilyoyo1 said:

An act of God does not mean any and everytime something happens in nature, a terrible result will occur. It's implying an uncontrollable natural event which has the potential for destruction despite everything done.

You do realize when you back up your Isy to the computer, you're backing up the isy sd card?

I'll have to begrudgingly agree with @lilyoyo1 to a certain extent ? 

I'll add my $0.00000000000000000000002 to this discussion with points which many can relate to. The fact anyone is here on this specific forum places you in the 1% of the humans who have taken the notion of automating their homes. This percentage gets to the 0.1% by the shear fact you're using one of the most powerful home automation controllers in the world.

Assuming a person is interested in Home Automation one of the first controllers people will read about is Smartthings.

Regardless, this puts the very people into the same category of *Die Hard, Fanatics, Over the Top* etc. I personally don't see a problem asking for the controller to offer the ability to complete a auto back up.

It's only 2021 for God's sakes, it can be done, it really comes down to the team having the time to do so . . . Given, the demand is quite low that's not going to happen along with Michel affirming this isn't something on the road map for the ISY-994. I would hope the Polisy at some later date would be capable of doing so seeing its a real computer that has plenty of horse power to do the same!

Ultimately, if there are no changes to the system a one time backup that is stored on different mediums & locations is just fine. If people want to complete a monthly backup where nothing ever changes I don't see the value in doing so! With respect to *Act of God* events @lilyoyo1 is correct in stating one can always try their very best to plan, implement, and hopefully mitigate losses. The reality is we all live on this blue planet and if anyone truly believes Mother Nature can't wipe you out in a single breath.

These same people haven't taken the time to learn history. ?

Some would probably say I am the epitome crazy, over the top, and nuts. Given, all the things I have done when my home was built along with the never ending projects under way to offer more resilience in the face of so called *Act of God* events. Speaking for myself only, I do these things because I can, because these *Industry Best Practices* have allowed my family to be secure & safe. It has also reduced the incidence of failures because the internal systems are so robust which have backup, redundancy, and fail over designed as the prime objective.

With all this investment in time, material, and resources none of this supersedes the fact all I am doing is buying time. Sometimes buying time is what matters whereas in other cases buying time simply delays the inevitable outcome.

In closing, people need to roll a hard 8 and do what they believe matters to them  . . . ?

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, Teken said:

 

Some would probably say I am the epitome crazy, over the top, and nuts.  

We all say that. ???

[Teken]

We all say that.

Can’t be
Surprised it’s all
Then again crazy just works
What have I done
Oh wells