Don't want to open this can of worms but curious about the ISY part of the PolIsy

[hart2hart]

So is the concept/conjecture for POLISY architecture:

1. Abstracted Devices
2. Protocol specific and mixed scenes including keeping up with membership for things like replace device
3. Programs
4. Variables
5. Nodeservers that directly update devices through memory on SSD instead of network overhead calls
a. lnsteon
b. Zwave
c. IP
d. Many others as now exist for specific devices and protocols including things like network resource
e. Zigbee
f. Lutron


Programs would interact with Devices, Scenes, variables in a abstracted fashion

REST interface on a direct to POLISY or via a nodeserver interface

The million dollar question is how current setups could be migrated to this type architecture?

[Blackbird]

To be honest Ive been so busy I forgot I posted this question.  Now after reading the responses Im shocked and afraid.  Am I understanding correctly that the PolIYS may not support Insteon?  If so why did I even buy it?  All of my devices are Insteon so where would that leave me?  Please tell me I'm reading this wrong.

[carealtor]

53 minutes ago, Blackbird said:

To be honest Ive been so busy I forgot I posted this question.  Now after reading the responses Im shocked and afraid.  Am I understanding correctly that the PolIYS may not support Insteon?  If so why did I even buy it?  All of my devices are Insteon so where would that leave me?  Please tell me I'm reading this wrong.

And if I'm honest, I'm feeling rather duped for buying a Polisy.  Had I known there was any question whatsoever about it supporting Insteon, I never would have been an early adopter.  As it is, I've had the Polisy for over 8 months waiting for the changeover.  I had Polyglot happily running on a VM, but I was excited about the prospect of everything in one box (some day) and I wanted to support UD, so I purchased the Polisy.  Now, as I already said, I'm feeling a bit duped, but I will continue to wait, and now hope.

In fairness to Michel, I will say, I didn't realize until this thread that there was no support from Smartlabs, and that the Insteon integration was reverse engineered.  What a pain that has to be.  Grateful to Michel and crew for all the work over the years.

Edited March 16, 2021 by carealtor
spelling

[hart2hart]

To be honest Ive been so busy I forgot I posted this question.  Now after reading the responses Im shocked and afraid.  Am I understanding correctly that the PolIYS may not support Insteon?  If so why did I even buy it?  All of my devices are Insteon so where would that leave me?  Please tell me I'm reading this wrong.

I had the same reaction initially. I now believe UDI is attempting to abstract out direct interaction with all specific HA protocols (Insteon , zwave, zigbee, IP, etc) into nodeservers that interact with device and scene nodes within the Polisy for common functions like programs etc. this provides a foundation to add more protocols and isolate differences without ending up with complex spaghetti coding

Smart labs has become more and more difficult to obtain information from to support their Insteon protocol. Therefore UD seems to be saying they will support what exists now and more assuming smartlabs communicates needed information.

Not an expert just my hypothesis based on reading here. Obviously only UDI and someone like [mention]Michel Kohanim [/mention] can confirm deny or defer until more is know.

[Blackbird]

33 minutes ago, carealtor said:

And if I'm honest, I'm feeling rather duped for buying a Polisy.  Had I known there was any question whatsoever about it supporting Insteon, I never would have been an early adopter.  As it is, I've had the Polisy for over 8 months waiting for the changeover.  I had Polyglot happily running on a VM, but I was excited about the prospect of everything in one box (some day) and I wanted to support UD, so I purchased the Polisy.  Now, as I already said, I'm feeling a bit duped, but I will continue to wait, and now hope.

In fairness to Michel, I will say, I didn't realize until this thread that there was no support from Smartlabs, and that the Insteon integration was reverse engineered.  What a pain that has to be.  Grateful to Michel and crew for all the work over the years.

My feelings exactly.  I would never have purchased the PolISY and I too have been waiting for it to be used as an ISY.  I hope I am proven wrong as I have too much money invested in this.  Very unhappy right now!

[larryllix]

Don't do anything rash! UDI has no reverse-engineered all the Insteon things. This has only happened lately and Insteon hasn't put out anything new, except the selfish (Hub only) messed up version of the MS II.

All the Insteon support drivers are already there and are not going anywhere. If Insteon revoked licensing from UDI they would likely collapse. Newbies are not going to buy Insteon modules for $40-$60 anymore when they are not available in stores where the dozen of other brands are for $10-$25 each. Insteon is only bought by people like ISY994 users and other that understand the value of the Insteon protocol system and will pay 2-3 times the dollars.

For the time being, my Insteon stuff works fine and likely always will with UDI.  UDI is slow with development but polisy will come...just much later than everybody wants.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Don't do anything rash! UDI has no reverse-engineered all the Insteon things. This has only happened lately and Insteon hasn't put out anything new, except the selfish (Hub only) messed up version of the MS II.

All the Insteon support drivers are already there and are not going anywhere. If Insteon revoked licensing from UDI they would likely collapse. Newbies are not going to buy Insteon modules for $40-$60 anymore when they are not available in stores where the dozen of other brands are for $10-$25 each. Insteon is only bought by people like ISY994 users and other that understand the value of the Insteon protocol system and will pay 2-3 times the dollars.

For the time being, my Insteon stuff works fine and likely always will with UDI.  UDI is slow with development but polisy will come...just much later than everybody wants.

Insteon's business is not dependent on the isy no more than UDIs business is tied to insteon. Both would survive without each other.

There are a large number of insteon/ISY users so it would be a hit but at the same time, many of those users already have their devices so they've already gotten their money. Back when smarthome sold the isy, it was outsold by the hub by a large number (I'm only counting smarthome sales). Many of the employees pushed the isy because they felt it was a better system (it's definitely the best) than the hub, indigo, homeseer, etc. What ended up happening is that users would start with the hub and then upgrade to more advanced systems later.

They have a symbiotic relationship and it's my hope that both see that it can be mutually benefictial to both. At the end of the day, both companies will survive without the other....it's the end users who will pay the price for them not working together

[Blackbird]

2 hours ago, larryllix said:

Don't do anything rash! UDI has no reverse-engineered all the Insteon things. This has only happened lately and Insteon hasn't put out anything new, except the selfish (Hub only) messed up version of the MS II.

All the Insteon support drivers are already there and are not going anywhere. If Insteon revoked licensing from UDI they would likely collapse. Newbies are not going to buy Insteon modules for $40-$60 anymore when they are not available in stores where the dozen of other brands are for $10-$25 each. Insteon is only bought by people like ISY994 users and other that understand the value of the Insteon protocol system and will pay 2-3 times the dollars.

For the time being, my Insteon stuff works fine and likely always will with UDI.  UDI is slow with development but polisy will come...just much later than everybody wants.

In the past when Michael was in the forums talking about the upcoming Polisy and answering questions, at no time was it mentioned that UDI may not support Insteon or the PolISY would not be used as an ISY.  If he did then I for one never would have bought one and Im sure alot of others wouldnt have either.  I only currently use the Polisy for Ecobee and Harmony and those I could have lived without for the price I paid.  Now I am hearing this information for the first time they may have  plans of not supporting insteon and it does very much worry and upset me.  I bought it for the future of  a more powerful ISY which I am happy to hear Michael giving us some details about how good it is.  I didnt buy it as a RPI replacement because I never owned a RPI.  Maybe it is not UDI's fault the way Insteon treats them and by the sounds of it Insteon isnt very smart, not supporting UDI.  I dont own a single Zwave product and own probably 40 Insteon devices and I have always been happy with both.  I have recommended to 3 family members and 4 friends to buy both Insteon and ISY but now I am not so sure.  As I said I hope I can continue to enjoy insteon and ISY and hopefully soon, get my money's worth out of the PolISY soon.

[Michel Kohanim]

@Blackbird,

1. Existing INSTEON devices shall be supported either natively or through node servers. Cannot guarantee that migration is going to be as easy as migrating ISY to another ISY but we'll do our best
2. We have not been privy to any new INSTEON protocol changes/products. And, many sources (except one) tell me that they do not want to integrate with or support third parties. So, I hope you do NOT think we are going to sacrifice ourselves (again) just to support them. We won't. Never again. Unless they provide us with meaningful documentation/specs and commitment for support. e.g. we spent months reverse engineering MSII, gave them a list of bugs, and at the end got blamed for not supporting it properly by our customers. I want to set the expectations again:

We shall NOT support New INSTEON devices without proper documentation/specs and their commitment for Support.

With kind regards,
Michel

[asbril]

19 hours ago, Blackbird said:

In the past when Michael was in the forums talking about the upcoming Polisy and answering questions, at no time was it mentioned that UDI may not support Insteon or the PolISY would not be used as an ISY.  If he did then I for one never would have bought one and Im sure alot of others wouldnt have either.  I only currently use the Polisy for Ecobee and Harmony and those I could have lived without for the price I paid.  Now I am hearing this information for the first time they may have  plans of not supporting insteon and it does very much worry and upset me.  I bought it for the future of  a more powerful ISY which I am happy to hear Michael giving us some details about how good it is.  I didnt buy it as a RPI replacement because I never owned a RPI.  Maybe it is not UDI's fault the way Insteon treats them and by the sounds of it Insteon isnt very smart, not supporting UDI.  I dont own a single Zwave product and own probably 40 Insteon devices and I have always been happy with both.  I have recommended to 3 family members and 4 friends to buy both Insteon and ISY but now I am not so sure.  As I said I hope I can continue to enjoy insteon and ISY and hopefully soon, get my money's worth out of the PolISY soon.

I don't use  Insteon and it does not affect me, but I would like to clarify a few things, based on all that has been written on the topic.

Existing Insteon devices will continue to be supported.

UDI is more than willing to continue the support of new Insteon devices, as long as Smarthome cooperates with UDI, and that cooperation seems to be deficient. Don't blame UDI.

Polisy is the Tesla of home automation, allowing the integration of multiple protocols. If not mistaken, Michel also leaves the door open for a nodeserver to be developed that would work, if possible, with new Insteon products. This being said, my understanding is that Insteon is not exactly an active developer of new devices.

I don't think that it is right to blame UDI / Polisy for the Insteon issue.

Edited March 17, 2021 by asbril
grammatical

[smokegrub]

I appreciate the clarity added by the last few posts. I have two homes. Both have ISYs and all the devices at both are Insteon. I haven't counted them but I suspect I have about 80! My setup is solid. I am technologically challenged so I avoid change as much as possible. Thus, I have avoided the Polisy to this point because I foresaw it to be an emerging technology--the cost was not an issue. I understand UDI's business decision to move to a system based almost exclusively on node servers. However, I can already see that each node server, at least at this point in time, represents a technical challenge to the developer and the end user. So, I will be waiting until the "dust settles" on this issue. I am thankful that at present, at least, I can expect my Insteon systems will continue to function. One Insteon device, the SynchroLinc, already presents a problem to me. Insteon has dropped it, and I can't find it anywhere. Fortunately, my neighbor is very talented at replacing the caps in such devices. Perhaps he can resurrect it. 

[carealtor]

On 3/9/2021 at 10:58 AM, Michel Kohanim said:

What's not there:

2. INSTEON: we are debating whether or not we want to support it at all

With kind regards,
Michel

I think our nervousness is justified.

[Michel Kohanim]

@carealtor,

You are right. I should have been clear. As I mentioned to someone else, we have PTSD when it comes to INSTEON. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[Brian H]

If memory serves me. The 2867-222 Alert and 2868-222 Siren modules. You where not given good information on how they work either.

I also understand if new Insteon modules are released and you get no good documentation. They will not be supported. My blame will be on Smartlabs and Richardson Capital Partners. Not UDI!!

[oberkc]

3 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

And, many sources (except one) tell me that they do not want to integrate with or support third parties.

This makes me wonder how long will the PLM be available.  I don't think there is any smarthome device or software that uses the PLM.  Only third-party devices use the PLM, right?  Ugh.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by oberkc

[Brian H]

Since Smarthome backed out of the promised firmware files or programmed controllers. The UDI PLM never saw the light of day.

Knowing how UDI designs electronics. I am sure it would be many times more reliable over the 2413 PLM with power supply issues.

There is a new Insteon Module in the FCC database that looks like a better replacement for the PLM. Though who knows if it will ever see the production line.

[MrBill]

16 hours ago, Brian H said:

There is a new Insteon Module in the FCC database that looks like a better replacement for the PLM. Though who knows if it will ever see the production line.

And if it does, who knows if Smartlabs will share the technical data and documentation that UDI needs to support its usage with UDI products.

[jwagner010]

Personally, if the current Insteon support can be built as a Node Server and that node server is done in a way where the community can add to the node server for new devices, taking the load off UDI, I think that is a good compromise.  Just my personal opinion.  But there would have to be a governance process in place where UDI could take input from the community for new devices and review them before updating the node server.  I know it is not a simple thing, there are likely to be conversion issues, but thats home automation, its never seamless as we all know, but thats the price you pay for progress.

 

re: The PLM going out of production, yes that does worry me, so I for one will be making sure I have a replacement or two in the cupboard next time Smarthome have a sale.  Should it go out of production I am sure someone way way smarter than I will find a way to take the Smarthome hub and turn it into a PLM should this occur.

 

My biggest concern is Smarthome going under or just killing off Insteon.  Again my personal view, is while I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, it will happen, that is a given, technology always becomes obsolescent at some point, whether in a year or 20 years, it will happen, by that time there will be other options out there for us that meet all our needs and an upgrade path so as devices die we can introduce other options.

Short story for me:

1) Insteon as Node Server (with process for community input for new devices)

2) Port over Network Resources, not everyone has the ability to write Node Servers and Network Resources are an easy way to set up simple calls to third party devices

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by jwagner010

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, MrBill said:

And if it does, who knows if Smartlabs will share the technical data and documentation that UDI needs to support its usage with UDI products.

Who knows it Insteon actually has any documentation to share? Judging by the previous actions of the company it is a one man operation in somebody's garage and all the technology is inside somebody's head, with the greatest of intent to write it all down some day.

These devices are all manufactured and tested in China, and likely all the design, and misleading docs for US patent faking was done by the same Chinese workers that built them. A fancy building warehousing parts in California, can give the impression of an established  American company and bypass many taxation and political border blockades. Why would Insteon be any different than so many other products in the tech world these days?

[jackal]

I am going to get lots of flak for this...but I say this considering the life span of product support, I would classify native Insteon support to be "end-of-life".  I would support Michel from not migrating native support to polisy (just an insteon node server supporting existing Insteon devices).   This frees up Michel's time that would have been gone to support something that is increasingly irrelevant by the day.   For existing users, just continue to use the old ISY for your insteon.  And start porting to Polisy and new non-insteon devices henceforth (and migrate old insteon when appropriate).  That's my 5 cents.  I am so ready to move on from Insteon platform and its PLM which continually needs replacement.

Edited March 18, 2021 by jackal

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

Who knows it Insteon actually has any documentation to share? Judging by the previous actions of the company it is a one man operation in somebody's garage and all the technology is inside somebody's head, with the greatest of intent to write it all down some day.

These devices are all manufactured and tested in China, and likely all the design, and misleading docs for US patent faking was done by the same Chinese workers that built them. A fancy building warehousing parts in California, can give the impression of an established  American company and bypass many taxation and political border blockades. Why would Insteon be any different than so many other products in the tech world these days?

here's my reaction because I still can't react....... or like.... or whatever you call clicking the heart...  I agree with you 100% tho... they never have been good at "documentation" or "communication".

I tried signing out, clearing cookies, signing in... several times...  been like that since yesterday...  Not sure what the definition of "Today" is but it's been 24 hours since it started telling me that...

[Teken]

here's my reaction because I still can't react....... or like.... or whatever you call clicking the heart...  I agree with you 100% tho... they never have been good at "documentation" or "communication".
I tried signing out, clearing cookies, signing in... several times...  been like that since yesterday...  Not sure what the definition of "Today" is but it's been 24 hours since it started telling me that...

The Matrix is telling you something!

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, Teken said:

The Matrix is telling you something!

yupp.... yesterday my conclusion was it meant "shut up" ???

[mango]

Interesting thread all, thank you.

I'm towards the lower end of the intellect here and usually just lurk and 'steal' (borrow / learn) ideas for ISY functionality. For that I thank you all. I am not a coder or programmer and am still fumbling with the basics of conditional logic. As a complete outsider to the Polisy debate I would like to offer my fly-on-wall take:

I've been on the scene quite some time, started with X10 and enjoyed using the ISY99 when Insteon was on the up. Now I have two properties both with ISY994s and quite a bit of kit.

It is Insteon, not UDI who are the catalyst for this issue. Insteon have failed in so many respects, in pretty much everything they do. A company that used to be a leader in the field has just shriveled up and is (in my view) continuing to slide lower into obscurity. The writing is on the wall. For those of you who have invested heavily into Insteon, keep buying up all the spare stuff you can and run your system(s) for many more years to come, but be understanding that it will come to an end.

If UDI is to keep its head above water, it need not attempt to throw precious development time into supporting new Insteon products (I doubt any are coming anyway). It's pure economics. They will support existing kit and assign Insteon functionality to the Polisy. That's pretty much it.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by mango
typo

[asbril]

40 minutes ago, mango said:

I'm towards the lower end of the intellect here and usually just lurk and 'steal' (borrow / learn) ideas for ISY functionality.

That is pretty much where I was a few years ago but, with the superb UDI customer support and the extraordinary help from so many in this forum, I am now an "advanced novice".  I am also not a programmer and definitely not a smart techie, but I now know how to  manage most of my ISY and Polisy needs.