ISY and Polisy *OR* ISY on Polisy???

[Wes Westhaver]

I'm still trying to understand the vagaries of these UDI devices and their related documentation. I just read this on the UDI website:

"Note: once Polisy is up and running, it will automatically look for your ISY on the network. As such, it’s best to make sure your Polisy and your ISY are on the same network. Also, please makes sure your ISY firmware is 5.3+."

So, if Polisy is able to replace the ISY, why is the Polisy looking for an ISY on your network? What does it do with the ISY? What if you don't have an ISY, what happens then?

-Wes

 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

See the Polisy sub forum. This topic has been recently covered on there a multitude of times....Including your last post

Edited December 2, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[MrBill]

it's looking for whatever ISY you're using.... likely a 994

ISY on Polisy is still in early alpha testing stages and doesn't automatically run on Polisy.

[Wes Westhaver]

11 hours ago, MrBill said:

it's looking for whatever ISY you're using.... likely a 994

ISY on Polisy is still in early alpha testing stages and doesn't automatically run on Polisy.

But why is it looking for "whatever ISY your using"? What does it do with the ISY?

[Wes Westhaver]

11 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

See the Polisy sub forum. This topic has been recently covered on there a multitude of times....Including your last post

I visited the Polisy sub-forum and couldn't find anything that addressed my question. Now I'll admit that I may have missed it somehow but can you provide a link?

 

[larryllix]

But why is it looking for "whatever ISY your using"? What does it do with the ISY?

polisy watches your ISY event and data stream so it can provide node servers for nonInsteon style devices, if the user installs any.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[MrBill]

9 hours ago, Wes Westhaver said:

But why is it looking for "whatever ISY your using"? What does it do with the ISY?

Polisy is designed for 2 main processes... Running "Polyglot" and running "ISY on Polisy"

Polyglot 2 has been available for several years.  Polyglot 3 is also in the coming soon/testing stage.

Polyglot 2 allows you to run nodeservers.  Nodeservers allow you to add device or online service not native to the ISY to the ISY as long as a developer has created a polyglot nodeserver for the device or service.  Here is a link to the nodeserers currently available: https://polyglot.universal-devices.com/  (note that link will also appears inside the polisy interface in the "store", don't bother downloading repositories from my link here, just look... when you want to install one you'll go to this same list inside the store-- yes, someone did that and PM'd me with what to do next, there's always a reason for the warning sticker--someone did it....)  There are also a limited selection of nodeservers available via the polyglot cloud... log into https://my.isy.io and click "open polyglot" in the upper right corner. (UDI Portal subscription required to make cloud nodeservers work.)   Cloud nodesevers don't need local hardware or local network access.  Polyglot 2/3 nodeservers require local hardware and local network access.

Polyglot creates nodes on the ISY, that's why it needs one...

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by MrBill

[Michel Kohanim]

On 12/2/2021 at 11:18 AM, MrBill said:

ISY on Polisy is still in early alpha testing stages and doesn't automatically run on Polisy.

Not true. ISY on Polisy has been in all packages for the last 3 months. And, it does automatically run when Polisy starts.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Wes Westhaver]

Thanks for the answers. I guess I need to spend some more time looking into Polyglot and node servers. So much of this stuff is super obvious to the old veterans but is clear as mud to the uninitiated like myself. I have a background in software and hardware development so the technical side of things isn't the problem, it's the unfamiliarity with this technology and understanding the problems it seeks to solve.

I don't mean to be critical but when a potential customer can't make heads or tails of what a website is trying to sell then the website is failing.

I think it is unfortunate that people who are newbies like myself aren't listened to when they say that a website is failing to convey an effective sales pitch and therefore is losing sales because a company's products and product features aren't being described in terms that address a potential customer's needs. The usefulness of a newbie's input is fleeting because no one remains a newbie forever. So a company must think of each newbie that reaches out as a tool to measure its effectiveness at communicating with potential new customers.

Grizzled veterans are useless in this regard. They're great to have around because they are loyal customers and they have the battle scars to prove it. They can help others who have entered-in but they too have difficulty remembering what they didn't know when they started and so they often talk over the heads of newbies.

Engineers and techies are horrible marketeers but they can improve if they take the time to acknowledge that newbies (annoying as they are) provide the best insight to how your products are being viewed by people you want to convert into customers.

I apologize for the rant. I've just seen way to many companies with great ideas and engineering that don't flourish because of their inability to convey those ideas effectively to potential customers.

 

[DAlter01]

8 hours ago, Wes Westhaver said:

Thanks for the answers. I guess I need to spend some more time looking into Polyglot and node servers. So much of this stuff is super obvious to the old veterans but is clear as mud to the uninitiated like myself. I have a background in software and hardware development so the technical side of things isn't the problem, it's the unfamiliarity with this technology and understanding the problems it seeks to solve.

I don't mean to be critical but when a potential customer can't make heads or tails of what a website is trying to sell then the website is failing.

I think it is unfortunate that people who are newbies like myself aren't listened to when they say that a website is failing to convey an effective sales pitch and therefore is losing sales because a company's products and product features aren't being described in terms that address a potential customer's needs. The usefulness of a newbie's input is fleeting because no one remains a newbie forever. So a company must think of each newbie that reaches out as a tool to measure its effectiveness at communicating with potential new customers.

Grizzled veterans are useless in this regard. They're great to have around because they are loyal customers and they have the battle scars to prove it. They can help others who have entered-in but they too have difficulty remembering what they didn't know when they started and so they often talk over the heads of newbies.

Engineers and techies are horrible marketeers but they can improve if they take the time to acknowledge that newbies (annoying as they are) provide the best insight to how your products are being viewed by people you want to convert into customers.

I apologize for the rant. I've just seen way to many companies with great ideas and engineering that don't flourish because of their inability to convey those ideas effectively to potential customers.

 

Wes, I have to agree with most of what you say on this one.  I'm experienced with the ISY but knowing exactly what a nodeserver is, Polygot, Polisy, ISY on Polisy, etc. is a little confusing and I haven't found a "big picture"  30k foot description I can understand of how all of this stuff interelates.  I've been able to piece together what I think these terms mean and devices do from the UDI website and these forums, but I'm sure my understanding is not very accurate.  There is further confusion created by frequent incremental statements I read about how device X can now work on device Y but is in Alpha/Beta. 

While some people might be interested, I don't want to attempt integration of equipment that isn't refined enough to be out of Beta and have an official release.  And I haven't found any clear statement of what equipment/protocols are in Alpha/Beta, have an official release, and what they can do in the official release stage.  I have read in these forums that some equipment has an official release, but a certain aspect, which seems integral, is still in Alpha/Beta.....so do I want to attempt integration of that?  Not really since I really don't know what it can do in the official release firmware.

So, while I have a very slick ISY system and have it interacting nicely with an RTI to integrate in some outside servcies such as SONOS, etc., my lack of having a clear picture of what this next generation of UDI equipment can and cannot do has kept me from taking the leap beyond the ISY.  I'm not one that wants to tinker with a new evolution of equipment just to learn.  I want to know it what it can do "reliably", before taking that step.  I don't have that clarity now. 

Don't get me wrong, I think UDI does fantastic work and I believe their focus has evolved to more lucrative work of building equipment and protocols for integration of business/commercial applications.  Bravo to them for that and I wish Michel and the company great success.  I assume one off sales to non-professional integrators what require a lot of hand holding and explanation probably isn't their focus.  But, if that assumption is wrong and they do want to penetrate the market for people like me and @Wes Westhaver,  they should think about a section of their website titled "Polisy, Polygot, ISY and Nodeservers for Dummies" and that section should have a big picture-30k foot section and also an explanation of what each of the key terms mean, and what they can do with their official release firmware.  And, maybe a description of what they can do in Beta but that Beta mention might muddy that water too much. 

Some on these forums say a lot of this can be learned from previous posts or can be learned from the forum.  With hundreds of thousands of posts on the forum someone is supposed to learn the current state of the UDI ecosystem from forum posts?????  I've read thousands i don't have the level of understanding I want/need and could probably get from 30 minutes of studying a well written description of the UDI ecosystem.  So, in my view, forum posts isn't an effective way for this "dummy" to figure it out.  But, maybe I am below average and this stuff is just obvious and easy to everyone else.

Or maybe, regular folks like me should just stay on the ISY until the Polisy is more evolved.  That is my current impression.

Edited December 4, 2021 by DAlter01

[dbuss]

Here's my understanding of Polygot, Polisy, ISY on Polisy, etc.

The dictionary definition of polyglot is a person who knows and is able to use several languages. To ISY, polyglot is the means of allowing ISY to connect to other ecosystems via a nodeserver. Each ecosystem has it's own unique nodeserver. Currently there are 112 nodeservers in the Polyglot Nodeserver Store. You will find nodeservers for such ecosystmes as Hue, Lifx, and many more. A nodeserver is similar to an App on your phone in that they are created by individuals and then placed in the Nodeserver store.

Polyglot needs a device other than ISY on which to run. Initially I, like most, used a Raspberry Pi to run Polyglot. I switched to Polisy when it became available. 

ISY on Polisy adds the ISY to Polisy. Therefore the need for two devices(ISY and Polisy) is eliminated. I haven't moved my ISY to Polisy yet. However, I intend to do so at some point.

 

[larryllix]

If you lose the password to your polyisy then...

.

.

... 'Poly want a hacker?'

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[DAlter01]

8 minutes ago, dbuss said:

Here's my understanding of Polygot, Polisy, ISY on Polisy, etc.

The dictionary definition of polyglot is a person who knows and is able to use several languages. To ISY, polyglot is the means of allowing ISY to connect to other ecosystems via a nodeserver. Each ecosystem has it's own unique nodeserver. Currently there are 112 nodeservers in the Polyglot Nodeserver Store. You will find nodeservers for such ecosystmes as Hue, Lifx, and many more. A nodeserver is similar to an App on your phone in that they are created by individuals and then placed in the Nodeserver store.

Polyglot needs a device other than ISY on which to run. Initially I, like most, used a Raspberry Pi to run Polyglot. I switched to Polisy when it became available. 

ISY on Polisy adds the ISY to Polisy. Therefore the need for two devices(ISY and Polisy) is eliminated. I haven't moved my ISY to Polisy yet. However, I intend to do so at some point.

 

Wow, all in three paragraphs, very, very helpful.  A few follow-ups and restatements to make sure I am clear:

1. Is Polyglot a UDI created/controlled interface program or an open program on the ether similar to Linux?
2. Currently a physical ISY (a node) can interface using a nodeserver with a Polisy (running Polyglot) and that interface is not Beta and, aside from occasional glitches, is fully functional for the ISY through the Polisy to the end user?
3. Currently, a person can eliminate the physical ISY and run "ISY on Polisy" which is a program? that runs alongside or on Polyglot in the Polisy device to emulate the ISY?   And, is the "ISY on Polisy" the code that is still in Beta and not yet as functional as a physical ISY?

 

 

  

[dbuss]

9 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Is Polyglot a UDI created/controlled interface program or an open program on the ether similar to Linux? Yes.

For me, I'm not concerned if something is Beta when related to UDI. I've found anything they classify as Beta to be very stable. I pay more attention to the forum posts on a particular item and when I feel comfortable, I install it.

[DAlter01]

13 minutes ago, dbuss said:

For me, I'm not concerned if something is Beta when related to UDI. I've found anything they classify as Beta to be very stable. I pay more attention to the forum posts on a particular item and when I feel comfortable, I install it.

Ok, considering the great experiences I've had with UDI, I can see that being true.  I've had some poor experiences with Beta before so to preserve my time I've learned to avoid it.  But, those experiences were not with UDI so maybe I'll relax my "rule" on not using Beta if it is a UDI Beta. 

For those that are running ISY on Polisy, it is as full featured and stable (or nearly as stable) as a standalone ISY box?  

[larryllix]

Ok, considering the great experiences I've had with UDI, I can see that being true.  I've had some poor experiences with Beta before so to preserve my time I've learned to avoid it.  But, those experiences were not with UDI so maybe I'll relax my "rule" on not using Beta if it is a UDI Beta. 
For those that are running ISY on Polisy, it is as full featured and stable (or nearly as stable) as a standalone ISY box?  

I haven't found any instabilities in polISY yet.

However I have found features not functioning somewhat and some not at all. I believe most of this have been brought up to 99% with the latest release but have not been local to my polisy to loading test that release yet.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I haven't found any instabilities in polISY yet.

However I have found features not functioning somewhat and some not at all. I believe most of this have been brought up to 99% with the latest release but have not been local to my polisy to loading test that release yet.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

Thank you

[bpwwer]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

Wow, all in three paragraphs, very, very helpful.  A few follow-ups and restatements to make sure I am clear:

1. Is Polyglot a UDI created/controlled interface program or an open program on the ether similar to Linux?
2. Currently a physical ISY (a node) can interface using a nodeserver with a Polisy (running Polyglot) and that interface is not Beta and, aside from occasional glitches, is fully functional for the ISY through the Polisy to the end user?
3. Currently, a person can eliminate the physical ISY and run "ISY on Polisy" which is a program? that runs alongside or on Polyglot in the Polisy device to emulate the ISY?   And, is the "ISY on Polisy" the code that is still in Beta and not yet as functional as a physical ISY?  

Almost right.

ISY is software that manages device nodes and has a rules engine for if/then type programming.  This was developed by UDI and includes management of Insteon, Z-wave type devices nodes.  

i994 is a small hardware device that runs the ISY software.  This hardware was also developed and is sold by UDI.

Polisy is a new hardware device.  It is much more powerful hardware than the i994.  It is also able to run the ISY software. Currently the the ISY software running on Polisy is a pre-production release version (alpha/beta). 

Polygot-V2 is software that interacts between other types of devices and services and the ISY software so that the ISY software sees those devices as device nodes that it can manage.  Polyglot-V2 is open source software.  Polyglot uses a "plug-in" type architecture so that it can expand to support many different types of devices and services.  Those plug-ins are called "node servers".  Typically, third part developers create the "node servers" that Polyglot uses.  UDI has commissioned specific node servers to be written but otherwise is not involved in the development of node servers.  Polyglot-V2 can run on a Polisy, a Raspberry PI, and many other computers.

Polyglot-V3 is an evolution of Polyglot-V2 to provide a better framework with things like a payment processing back-end so that third party developers that create node servers are able to sell them and get compensated for their efforts. Polyglot-V3 is not open source and is being developed by UDI.  Polyglot-V3 will only run on a Polisy.  It is currently a pre-production release (alpha).

And yes, this information should be converted to marketing material and posted on the website, I agree.

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

Is Polyglot a UDI created/controlled interface program or an open program on the ether similar to Linux?

Polyglot is an application.  Polyglot 2 can actually be run a raspberry pi (it's original home) or Polisy.  Polyglot 3 will require Polisy.    All polyglot 2 nodeservers are open source and available on github... so if you know what you're doing and want to change the way the nodeserver works that's currently possible.   With polyglot 3 nodeservers are closed source, and the limitation to polyglot 3 on polisy allows the nodeserver author to charge one-time or recurring fee's.

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

Currently a physical ISY (a node) can interface using a nodeserver with a Polisy (running Polyglot) and that interface is not Beta and, aside from occasional glitches, is fully functional for the ISY through the Polisy to the end user?

correct... except a node isn't the physical ISY, a node is an entry in the Device tree on the 'main' tab of the admin console.

Before node servers the only "node" types were insteon, z-wave, and scenes.... nodeservers can inject more nodes into the device tree....

perhaps a wireless tag placed inside the kitchen refrigerator:

 

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

Currently, a person can eliminate the physical ISY and run "ISY on Polisy" which is a program? that runs alongside or on Polyglot in the Polisy device to emulate the ISY?   And, is the "ISY on Polisy" the code that is still in Beta and not yet as functional as a physical ISY?

correct.

[DAlter01]

6 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Polyglot is an application.  Polyglot 2 can actually be run a raspberry pi (it's original home) or Polisy.  Polyglot 3 will require Polisy.    All polyglot 2 nodeservers are open source and available on github... so if you know what you're doing and want to change the way the nodeserver works that's currently possible.   With polyglot 3 nodeservers are closed source, and the limitation to polyglot 3 on polisy allows the nodeserver author to charge one-time or recurring fee's.

correct... except a node isn't the physical ISY, a node is an entry in the Device tree on the 'main' tab of the admin console.

Before node servers the only "node" types were insteon, z-wave, and scenes.... nodeservers can inject more nodes into the device tree....

perhaps a wireless tag placed inside the kitchen refrigerator:

 

correct.

Very helpful, thank you.  

[DAlter01]

8 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

Almost right.

ISY is software that manages device nodes and has a rules engine for if/then type programming.  This was developed by UDI and includes management of Insteon, Z-wave type devices nodes.  

i994 is a small hardware device that runs the ISY software.  This hardware was also developed and is sold by UDI.

Polisy is a new hardware device.  It is much more powerful hardware than the i994.  It is also able to run the ISY software. Currently the the ISY software running on Polisy is a pre-production release version (alpha/beta). 

Polygot-V2 is software that interacts between other types of devices and services and the ISY software so that the ISY software sees those devices as device nodes that it can manage.  Polyglot-V2 is open source software.  Polyglot uses a "plug-in" type architecture so that it can expand to support many different types of devices and services.  Those plug-ins are called "node servers".  Typically, third part developers create the "node servers" that Polyglot uses.  UDI has commissioned specific node servers to be written but otherwise is not involved in the development of node servers.  Polyglot-V2 can run on a Polisy, a Raspberry PI, and many other computers.

Polyglot-V3 is an evolution of Polyglot-V2 to provide a better framework with things like a payment processing back-end so that third party developers that create node servers are able to sell them and get compensated for their efforts. Polyglot-V3 is not open source and is being developed by UDI.  Polyglot-V3 will only run on a Polisy.  It is currently a pre-production release (alpha).

And yes, this information should be converted to marketing material and posted on the website, I agree.

Very, helpful.  I have a great understanding of it now.  

[DAlter01]

33 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

Almost right.

ISY is software that manages device nodes and has a rules engine for if/then type programming.  This was developed by UDI and includes management of Insteon, Z-wave type devices nodes.  

i994 is a small hardware device that runs the ISY software.  This hardware was also developed and is sold by UDI.

Polisy is a new hardware device.  It is much more powerful hardware than the i994.  It is also able to run the ISY software. Currently the the ISY software running on Polisy is a pre-production release version (alpha/beta). 

Polygot-V2 is software that interacts between other types of devices and services and the ISY software so that the ISY software sees those devices as device nodes that it can manage.  Polyglot-V2 is open source software.  Polyglot uses a "plug-in" type architecture so that it can expand to support many different types of devices and services.  Those plug-ins are called "node servers".  Typically, third part developers create the "node servers" that Polyglot uses.  UDI has commissioned specific node servers to be written but otherwise is not involved in the development of node servers.  Polyglot-V2 can run on a Polisy, a Raspberry PI, and many other computers.

Polyglot-V3 is an evolution of Polyglot-V2 to provide a better framework with things like a payment processing back-end so that third party developers that create node servers are able to sell them and get compensated for their efforts. Polyglot-V3 is not open source and is being developed by UDI.  Polyglot-V3 will only run on a Polisy.  It is currently a pre-production release (alpha).

And yes, this information should be converted to marketing material and posted on the website, I agree.

The clarity that ISY is just software running on an i994 hardware is very helpful.  It provides me the ability to more clearly understand that the Polisy is a more powerful device (upgraded I994 and probably much more) that can run both the ISY program and the Polyglot program to then bring in more capabilties of the ISY program.   

[lilyoyo1]

5 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Wes, I have to agree with most of what you say on this one.  I'm experienced with the ISY but knowing exactly what a nodeserver is, Polygot, Polisy, ISY on Polisy, etc. is a little confusing and I haven't found a "big picture"  30k foot description I can understand of how all of this stuff interelates.  I've been able to piece together what I think these terms mean and devices do from the UDI website and these forums, but I'm sure my understanding is not very accurate.  There is further confusion created by frequent incremental statements I read about how device X can now work on device Y but is in Alpha/Beta. 

While some people might be interested, I don't want to attempt integration of equipment that isn't refined enough to be out of Beta and have an official release.  And I haven't found any clear statement of what equipment/protocols are in Alpha/Beta, have an official release, and what they can do in the official release stage.  I have read in these forums that some equipment has an official release, but a certain aspect, which seems integral, is still in Alpha/Beta.....so do I want to attempt integration of that?  Not really since I really don't know what it can do in the official release firmware.

So, while I have a very slick ISY system and have it interacting nicely with an RTI to integrate in some outside servcies such as SONOS, etc., my lack of having a clear picture of what this next generation of UDI equipment can and cannot do has kept me from taking the leap beyond the ISY.  I'm not one that wants to tinker with a new evolution of equipment just to learn.  I want to know it what it can do "reliably", before taking that step.  I don't have that clarity now. 

Don't get me wrong, I think UDI does fantastic work and I believe their focus has evolved to more lucrative work of building equipment and protocols for integration of business/commercial applications.  Bravo to them for that and I wish Michel and the company great success.  I assume one off sales to non-professional integrators what require a lot of hand holding and explanation probably isn't their focus.  But, if that assumption is wrong and they do want to penetrate the market for people like me and @Wes Westhaver,  they should think about a section of their website titled "Polisy, Polygot, ISY and Nodeservers for Dummies" and that section should have a big picture-30k foot section and also an explanation of what each of the key terms mean, and what they can do with their official release firmware.  And, maybe a description of what they can do in Beta but that Beta mention might muddy that water too much. 

Some on these forums say a lot of this can be learned from previous posts or can be learned from the forum.  With hundreds of thousands of posts on the forum someone is supposed to learn the current state of the UDI ecosystem from forum posts?????  I've read thousands i don't have the level of understanding I want/need and could probably get from 30 minutes of studying a well written description of the UDI ecosystem.  So, in my view, forum posts isn't an effective way for this "dummy" to figure it out.  But, maybe I am below average and this stuff is just obvious and easy to everyone else.

Or maybe, regular folks like me should just stay on the ISY until the Polisy is more evolved.  That is my current impression.

Here's the thing about Advanced controllers- They're considered advanced for a reason. This is why Lutron requires training even for basic level stuff and paid training for advanced stuff. Its not easy. They choose who they want to install homeworks due to its own complicated nature. Ditto for C4, Crestron, Savant, DMX,etc. UDI (and other similar systems) are giving you the power of those types of systems at an affordable price. This goes back to why most dealers wont sell Lutron at a reasonable markup to DIYers. They dont want the headache of calls from that person when stuff isnt working.

Problems arise when non technical people want play in a space that is above their technical expertise without being willing to invest the time and energy that it requires. You (not saying you personally) cannot use the Isy (or any similar system) and think you can walk away and come back however long later and pick it back up. Every single thing in life requires familiarity in order to be proficient with it. Some require more than others. Case in point; If you havent ridden a skateboard in 30 years- get back on it and see what happens.

I remember when I learned how to set up command fusion. I kept messing around until I became proficient with it. I hadnt touched it in years when I tried once last year out of boredom and gave up. While some things were familiar- I felt completely lost. Is that their fault for not making it easier or mine for not using it? It's mine. reality is; if I wanted simple- I could just use mobilinc or some other app already created. Command fusion was hard because you're designing everything yourself. They can't write a book on something that can cover every variable a person can choose without setting limitations on what a person can do.

The same applies to the ISY, Polisy, polyglot, etc. Expecting a sales page to go into details about every little detail means information overload. While they may sell more devices to some who may desire alot more information- they'll probably lose many more who gets turned off by it. The polisy page is there to convey information about the system. Not go into the technical details about how it works etc. Thats like buying an oled tv online from bestbuy expecting the webpage to tell you all about what oled is and how it works.

Based on this conversation, I asked my wife to read the Polisy page. Her initial impression was that I wrote it. She said she can tell a technical person wrote it. I asked her what she thought about Polisy and she said (paraphrasing): A box that connects to the system you have now so that you can control stuff that you normally wouldnt be able to. In the future it'll replace what you use now and be an all in one solution. She didnt care about polyglot or any other technical term. She just wanted to know if it works which is most people are after and what sales pages are for. Had they provided too much information, she wouldnt have read it. Part of the problem on the Polisy page is that somte of the information is not needed. By talking about nodeservers and polyglot, UDI is probably making things more complicated for non technical users. Then again- for technical users (or those willing to invest time to learn) that missing information could keep them from jumping aboard.

If a person wants simplicity, they should get a simple controller that is more forgiving if left alone for some time. Even then, people struggle with Alexa and google home. reality is, the ISY (and similar systems) arent for everyone. Even now, multiple people have tried to explain things and some are still lost. At some point, they need to be real with themselves about their expertise level and either commit to staying on top of things so that they arent lost everytime or look towards something that fits their lifestyle better.

Its easy to say UDI should do a 30k write up for dummies. Who's spending the time and money for something that most will not read? We cant even get people to read the responses to their own forum posts, wiki, isy cookbook, posts on the same subject right below theirs, etc....All information that is already readily available. Technology changes way too fast for UDI (or any company) to do something like that. We tend to forget how fast technology changes. 6-7 years ago, it took a syncrolinc, command fusion, global cache, countless hrs of programming, etc. to get my tvs talking to the isy. Now, I can do it in less than 2 hrs setting up polisy and writing a couple of programs to do what I want accomplished. Once everything is ported over, that time will be even less.

In regards to official and beta- it's all relative. Alot of companies (here's looking at you samsung) push out bug filled "official" software only to send out patches later. UDI labels their patch OS's beta as not every user really needs to be on the latest "official" firmware (set it and forget folks) Because they put their firmware on the forums in the open for anyone to use we get to see advancements as they come vs when they want to send them to us. Because of the costs to certify official releases when it involves zwave, you will see this more often (part of why zwave makers are slow to release new series devices). UDI could potentially lessen confustion by putting a note stating something about that but then again- we get people posting where to find the firmware on the firmware page so I doubt it.

Edited December 4, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Wes Westhaver]

4 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

I'm experienced with the ISY but knowing exactly what a nodeserver is, Polygot, Polisy, ISY on Polisy, etc. is a little confusing and I haven't found a "big picture"  30k foot description I can understand of how all of this stuff interelates.

Exactly! I get so frustrated when company's don't take the time to explicitly state why you need their products and/or services.

A good 30k overview is all that is needed to pull a potential customer into your arena and hold them there.

I am also frustrated when a company offers products with overlapping features and doesn't take the time to create a features comparison table so that a potential customer can cut to the chase and decide which product most closely meets their needs.

Both of the above can be created and posted to a website easily and doesn't cost much in terms of time and effort and yet these two very useful items are neglected.

-Wes

Edited December 4, 2021 by Wes Westhaver

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Here's the thing about Advanced controllers- They're considered advanced for a reason. This is why Lutron requires training even for basic level stuff and paid training for advanced stuff. Its not easy. They choose who they want to install homeworks due to its own complicated nature. Ditto for C4, Crestron, Savant, DMX,etc. UDI (and other similar systems) are giving you the power of those types of systems at an affordable price. This goes back to why most dealers wont sell Lutron at a reasonable markup to DIYers. They dont want the headache of calls from that person when stuff isnt working.

Problems arise when non technical people want play in a space that is above their technical expertise without being willing to invest the time and energy that it requires. You (not saying you personally) cannot use the Isy (or any similar system) and think you can walk away and come back however long later and pick it back up. Every single thing in life requires familiarity in order to be proficient with it. Some require more than others. Case in point; If you havent ridden a skateboard in 30 years- get back on it and see what happens.

I remember when I learned how to set up command fusion. I kept messing around until I became proficient with it. I hadnt touched it in years when I tried once last year out of boredom and gave up. While some things were familiar- I felt completely lost. Is that their fault for not making it easier or mine for not using it? It's mine. reality is; if I wanted simple- I could just use mobilinc or some other app already created. Command fusion was hard because you're designing everything yourself. They can't write a book on something that can cover every variable a person can choose without setting limitations on what a person can do.

The same applies to the ISY, Polisy, polyglot, etc. Expecting a sales page to go into details about every little detail means information overload. While they may sell more devices to some who may desire alot more information- they'll probably lose many more who gets turned off by it. The polisy page is there to convey information about the system. Not go into the technical details about how it works etc. Thats like buying an oled tv online from bestbuy expecting the webpage to tell you all about what oled is and how it works.

Based on this conversation, I asked my wife to read the Polisy page. Her initial impression was that I wrote it. She said she can tell a technical person wrote it. I asked her what she thought about Polisy and she said (paraphrasing): A box that connects to the system you have now so that you can control stuff that you normally wouldnt be able to. In the future it'll replace what you use now and be an all in one solution. She didnt care about polyglot or any other technical term. She just wanted to know if it works which is most people are after and what sales pages are for. Had they provided too much information, she wouldnt have read it. Part of the problem on the Polisy page is that somte of the information is not needed. By talking about nodeservers and polyglot, UDI is probably making things more complicated for non technical users. Then again- for technical users (or those willing to invest time to learn) that missing information could keep them from jumping aboard.

If a person wants simplicity, they should get a simple controller that is more forgiving if left alone for some time. Even then, people struggle with Alexa and google home. reality is, the ISY (and similar systems) arent for everyone. Even now, multiple people have tried to explain things and some are still lost. At some point, they need to be real with themselves about their expertise level and either commit to staying on top of things so that they arent lost everytime or look towards something that fits their lifestyle better.

Its easy to say UDI should do a 30k write up for dummies. Who's spending the time and money for something that most will not read? We cant even get people to read the responses to their own forum posts, wiki, isy cookbook, posts on the same subject right below theirs, etc....All information that is already readily available. Technology changes way too fast for UDI (or any company) to do something like that. We tend to forget how fast technology changes. 6-7 years ago, it took a syncrolinc, command fusion, global cache, countless hrs of programming, etc. to get my tvs talking to the isy. Now, I can do it in less than 2 hrs setting up polisy and writing a couple of programs to do what I want accomplished. Once everything is ported over, that time will be even less.

In regards to official and beta- it's all relative. Alot of companies (here's looking at you samsung) push out bug filled "official" software only to send out patches later. UDI labels their patch OS's beta as not every user really needs to be on the latest "official" firmware (set it and forget folks) Because they put their firmware on the forums in the open for anyone to use we get to see advancements as they come vs when they want to send them to us. Because of the costs to certify official releases when it involves zwave, you will see this more often (part of why zwave makers are slow to release new series devices). UDI could potentially lessen confustion by putting a note stating something about that but then again- we get people posting where to find the firmware on the firmware page so I doubt it.

@lilyoyo1

I here what you are saying.  The dummies comment was a little self defeating humor and was not meaning that UDI should be trying to market their product to average Joe homeowner.  I can handle most of the technical stuff but I hadn't read an overview of how the parts and software all fit together.  

And, in my view, even a very technical person that was looking at the UDI ecosystem from their website for the first time would have a tough time figuring out what parts and pieces were needed and how they related to build a functioning system and what the system could do.  They would essentially have to buy it and use it to learn the "big picture".  That, in my view, isn't how to peak the interest of the technically sufficient buyer pool they are likely targeting.

I want a full rich automation system and will spend the time and money to make it work.  I've had ISY systems for many years and have hundreds of functioning programs.  Some of these are, in my view, fairly complex.  I've reviewed the UDI webpage more than a few times and 've read hundreds of posts on Polisy, Polyglots, nodeserves, Rasberry Pi, etc. and yet I did not have clarity on the big picture of the next generation UDI ecosystem until today.  After all of that time and effort, for this potential buyer to not understand the big picture prior to today makes me think there is something missing in the message.  Or, I am just a little slower than most. 

The thing I thought was missing was the 30k foot overview to understand how the terms related to each other.  And, as it turns out, that was the case for me.  With just a few paragraphs from @dbussand a little more detail from @MrBilland @bpwwer, I believe I understand the big picture.

You mention the time and effort to write up a summary of every little detail in an evolving environement, it being costly, etc.  That is my point, that is what exists today, a lot of details and posts.  In an attempt to learn the big picture I kept ending up back at the UDI wiki which is a mountain of details, which are hard to understand without understading the big picture.  What is lacking, or I couldn't find, is a few paragraphs of overview that were beutifully composed today by the three names I mentioned above.  That overview will be the same for many, many years.  The details will, of course, change.  But that overview will remain for years to come.

In truth, many of the theories I developed through my prior research were mostly correct.  Though, not entirely, and I had no confidence that my theories were accurate enough to go out and start buying new products.   For instance, I  had figured out before today that I can "run an ISY on the Polisy" and that it was different the running "ISY on Polisy".  That is with many, many hours of reading on the forum and figuring out they are different.  Will the person, even a technical person, reading the UDI site or the forums understand with confidence the difference between these two options? Or, will they just think there are linguistic differences in how different people write about how the ISY works with Polisy and there is only one choice?  And, that same person will read in the forums about how there is still some work to be done on getting the ISY on Policy working fully and therefore think they should not run an ISY with a Policy since it isn't done being developed yet?  Even writing the above paragraph will confuse a lot of people that don't realzie that "ISY on Policy" is different than "running an ISY on a Polisy". 

 Anyway, my point was UDI might think about providing a clearer overview of their ecosystem.  In the end, I got the overview I needed today but I'm guessing there are still a lot of people out there that are technically advanced enough to use the UDI ecosystem but they do not understand the overview of how it can work for them, and so they move on.