chris.com Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 I just wanted to offer my thoughts regarding my experience trying to figure out what software I should be running. I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the topic; I am not a super-passionate power user and and I don't tend to stay extremely up-to-date on the latest UD goings-on. I'm a conservative user. I don't have a desire to be experimenting with alpha / beta software or test builds. If I'm going to install software updates on my isy994i, I want to be certain that I'm installing an official release that is fully supported. In my opinion, trying to figure out what version of the software is the latest official release isn't easy. The official Universal Devices Wiki simply has a link to the Current Release, Betas, and Bug Reports forum. Once in the forum, there doesn't seem to be a thread that clearly states what version is the latest official version. Am I understanding correctly that 5.3.0 is still the latest official release? I do see a thread for 5.3.4 at the top, but it clearly states that's a test build. I would like to suggest to the forum moderators that there be a sticky post that officially states what the official, fully-supported versions are and provide download links. I'm happy to read the threads on the alpha, betas, and test builds, but I would like to wait until a version has UD's official blessing before I take the plunge.
lilyoyo1 Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, chris.com said: I just wanted to offer my thoughts regarding my experience trying to figure out what software I should be running. I apologize in advance for my ignorance on the topic; I am not a super-passionate power user and and I don't tend to stay extremely up-to-date on the latest UD goings-on. I'm a conservative user. I don't have a desire to be experimenting with alpha / beta software or test builds. If I'm going to install software updates on my isy994i, I want to be certain that I'm installing an official release that is fully supported. In my opinion, trying to figure out what version of the software is the latest official release isn't easy. The official Universal Devices Wiki simply has a link to the Current Release, Betas, and Bug Reports forum. Once in the forum, there doesn't seem to be a thread that clearly states what version is the latest official version. Am I understanding correctly that 5.3.0 is still the latest official release? I do see a thread for 5.3.4 at the top, but it clearly states that's a test build. I would like to suggest to the forum moderators that there be a sticky post that officially states what the official, fully-supported versions are and provide download links. I'm happy to read the threads on the alpha, betas, and test builds, but I would like to wait until a version has UD's official blessing before I take the plunge. Any official release must go through official zwave certification which costs thousands of dollars...UDI has stated a few times that official releases will only be for major releases due to that. In the mean time all current releases will be a test release. If seeing the word official is that important, then 5.3 is what you'll want to use (along with it's bugs that have been subsequently fixed in later releases). It will be a long while before you'll be upgrading again though Edited January 17, 2022 by lilyoyo1 1
larryllix Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 ISY V5.3.4 has the least bugs of any ISY version, official or not. 1
Teken Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 In case you’re not aware when the ISY Series Controller has an official major firmware release the same will be presented in the Admin Console via the upgrade tab. No guessing or having to wade through 999999999 pages of threads.
MrBill Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 There's only one "official" release in version 5, and that is 5.3.0. It's called "official" because it follows the beta's AND it went through the z-wave certification process with costs in excess of 10K for any release UDI submits, as @lilyoyo1 mentioned. There are a couple of releases after that labeled "test build" that does not translate to beta... that translates to "bug fix". 5.3.4 is currently the most stable build in the version 5.x line. Unfortunately version 5 hasn't used (yet) the firmware release notifications mentioned by @Teken. If you're already on the V5 branch V5.3.4 is where you want to be. If you're on the version 4.x branch you can upgrade manually to version 5, but there might be manual program conversation required. Or if you don't need any of the v5 features, just stay on version 4 and you'll get notifications in the admin console if any official maintenance releases are made. 1
Geddy Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 11 hours ago, chris.com said: I would like to suggest to the forum moderators that there be a sticky post that officially states what the official, fully-supported versions are and provide download links. I'm happy to read the threads on the alpha, betas, and test builds, but I would like to wait until a version has UD's official blessing before I take the plunge. @chris.com typically the latest release will be pinned to this area for "Current Release, Betas, and Bug Reports". As such the current 5.3.4 release is the latest/current release for ISY994i (and those with Z-wave 500 series controllers). If you only have the 300 series z-wave then you must stay at the other pinned topic for 5.0.16C (RC1). Since those versions are the current supported releases they are pinned as such. The 5.3 "official release" thread has been moved to "prior releases" because the updates to get to 5.3.4 fixed some issues found in 5.3 and others along the way. Universal Devices support all of the Firmware releases and the forums help augment that support with user-to-user support. It's been stated many times (yes, maybe deep in the seemingly endless posts on the forums) that many "beta" builds and "test builds" are more stable than most beta/test builds that many software companies release. If there's a huge bug found/reported then UDI is very quick in resolving and releasing an update. While your request is valid it's just not feasible to keep an outdated "official release" thread pinned when there are clearly updates in subsequent releases that would help most users. Think of it from the support side. If you only installed the 5.3 release and had issues, the support side (as well as most users here offering support) would tell you "Step 1: Upgrade to 5.3.4". If you kept your heels in the ground and said, "I'm not upgrading to a test build.", you probably wouldn't get much more support to fix a problem that very well might have been addressed in the releases since 5.3 was labeled "official". The best suggestion would be to wade into the (fully) supported waters of what you consider "risky" by using "test builds", but know that UD Support as well as the user-to-user support here on the forums are here to help you should you run into any issues. That's why there are thousands of posts from other users to get help when they need it. You will also note the many posts on this forum that clearly point out that UDI has top notch support system that if you ever have a major issue that the forums cannot help you just open a support ticket and you'll be personally assisted to resolve you issues in a very timely manor. 2 1
MrBill Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Geddy said: It's been stated many times (yes, maybe deep in the seemingly endless posts on the forums) that many "beta" builds and "test builds" are more stable than most beta/test builds that many software companies release. If there's a huge bug found/reported then UDI is very quick in resolving and releasing an update. Keep in mind there is a difference between "Beta" and "Test"... they really shouldn't be lumped into the same slashed category. A "beta" build may have new features and may have stability issues. A "test" build should be stable and only include bug fixes since the last "official" build. The only reason they are not Official is because they lack z-wave certification. It's too bad they got labeled "test builds" as it causes much confusion, "minor release" may have been a better name. Also "test builds" are only going to be a risky thing to try during the first weeks of it's life. After that IF there is a big problem it will be known. V5.3.4 was released July 30th, so we are coming up on the 6 month mark with no known major issues or instabilities.
larryllix Posted January 17, 2022 Posted January 17, 2022 5 hours ago, MrBill said: Keep in mind there is a difference between "Beta" and "Test"... they really shouldn't be lumped into the same slashed category. A "beta" build may have new features and may have stability issues. A "test" build should be stable and only include bug fixes since the last "official" build. The only reason they are not Official is because they lack z-wave certification. It's too bad they got labeled "test builds" as it causes much confusion, "minor release" may have been a better name. Also "test builds" are only going to be a risky thing to try during the first weeks of it's life. After that IF there is a big problem it will be known. V5.3.4 was released July 30th, so we are coming up on the 6 month mark with no known major issues or instabilities. Holy Joseph and Mary! People throw this word "stable" around like ISY may crash with new (beta) releases. I have never heard of one ISY crash yet (IIRC), or experienced an ISY crash once in 8 years now, and I have run every alpha, and beta release UDI has ever put out, since ISY v3.xxx. I would even trust UDI with my personal credit cards! Some bugs yes, but never a crash, and therefore, I consider every version produced as "stable", so far. YMMV. 3 1
MrBill Posted January 18, 2022 Posted January 18, 2022 16 hours ago, larryllix said: Holy Joseph and Mary! People throw this word "stable" around like ISY may crash with new (beta) releases. I have never heard of one ISY crash yet (IIRC), or experienced an ISY crash once in 8 years now, and I have run every alpha, and beta release UDI has ever put out, since ISY v3.xxx. I would even trust UDI with my personal credit cards! Some bugs yes, but never a crash, and therefore, I consider every version produced as "stable", so far. YMMV. I don't think that not being stable means it may crash.... Or re-worded a programs stability has nothing to do with possible abnormal termination. I went looking for an online definition of software stability, its some what subjective or opinion based, but there are some attempts at definition, such as: Quote Expectations of Stability A reasonable first definition of "stable" is that an average user should be able to follow the documented process of obtaining, configuring, and building the software on a supported platform. After that, the user should expect that the automated tests pass. There may be glitches in that process, but any software release for which the developers cannot make that guarantee is not stable. That quote continues on for another few thousand words. So in ISY terms I think we say it's stable when there are no major bugs created from the prior version. 1
larryllix Posted January 19, 2022 Posted January 19, 2022 (edited) Here is a description that complies with the standard English definition dictionaries, and makes an easily understood analogy with construction. "A stable building is one that will not collapse" From https://bitdepth.thomasrutter.com/2010/04/02/stable-vs-stable-what-stable-means-in-software/ Quote Another meaning of stable exists in common use, where people take it to mean “working reliably” or “solid”. That is, people refer to software that runs consistently without crashing as stable. You can see why they may use the word in this way: in real life, when something can be described as stable, it won’t fall over. If a chair is stable enough, you can sit in it and it won’t topple or collapse. However, confusion arises when people use this form of the word stable to refer to software that isn’t stable in the earlier sense. For example, it’s why you see comments like “I’ve been using the beta version since February and it is very stable” or “the newer version is more stable”. The point that these comments make is not that the software is final and unchanging, as in a stable software release, but more that the software is stable like a chair might be stable. It seems reliable, and the user hasn’t experience any major problems. I would never use the term "unstable" to describe software that contains a few bugs unless it crashed due to those bugs. ISY has always contains some bugs but being called "unstable" would just scare most people away, as it has with so many users in the past ISY versions. "Beta"?, yes...."unstable"?, never. Edited January 19, 2022 by larryllix
chris.com Posted January 21, 2022 Author Posted January 21, 2022 A huge thank you to everyone who responded in this thread. It has helped me understand the nomenclature and I hope it has helped others to as well. I am running 5.3.0. Based on the information in this thread, I now feel confident about installing 5.3.4 and future "test builds" by letting a satisfactory amount of time transpire after their release. I will continue to opt out of alpha and beta releases. 1
io_guy Posted January 22, 2022 Posted January 22, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 8:46 AM, MrBill said: There's only one "official" release in version 5, and that is 5.3.0. It's called "official" because it follows the beta's AND it went through the z-wave certification process with costs in excess of 10K for any release UDI submits, as @lilyoyo1 mentioned. There are a couple of releases after that labeled "test build" that does not translate to beta... that translates to "bug fix". 5.3.4 is currently the most stable build in the version 5.x line. @Teken Note sure this is correct. Initial certification for 500 or 700 should cost this but maintenance releases shouldn't trigger a recertification. Take Hubitiat for example. They got 700 certification, which doesn't link to a specific software version, and they update their software as frequently as the wind changes. https://products.z-wavealliance.org/products/3921?selectedFrequencyId=2 1
Michel Kohanim Posted January 24, 2022 Posted January 24, 2022 @io_guy, Do they call their releases official? If so, they are 100% in violation of Z-Wave certification. Or, at least that's what we tried to do and they refused at least 3 times. With kind regards, Michel 1
io_guy Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 On 1/23/2022 at 11:30 PM, Michel Kohanim said: @io_guy, Do they call their releases official? If so, they are 100% in violation of Z-Wave certification. Or, at least that's what we tried to do and they refused at least 3 times. With kind regards, Michel Yep, every release including major revisions and minor patches. Here's the latest example with many maintenance releases: https://community.hubitat.com/t/release-2-3-0-available/83731/6
Michel Kohanim Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Do they install this firmware on what they sell on Amazon? With kind regards, Michel
Geddy Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 15 hours ago, io_guy said: Yep, every release including major revisions and minor patches. I don't dispute your claim, but where do you consider them calling each release "official"? Nowhere on the link you gave does it have the word "official" or "certified". To me it just seems that they're putting out releases and not identifying them in any capacity. So you (or the user(s) in general) assume they're "official". Of course @Michel Kohanim would know better how z-wave certification would need to identify versions, but simply by the link @io_guy provided I don't know if I'd consider any release they put out as "official". Also very strange that "Release 2.x" dates back to Aug 2019 and they just recently went to 2.3.0. So there are a bunch of minor builds along the way. That would drive me nuts considering an update that often. 2 1
Michel Kohanim Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 Just to reiterate, we were adamantly told that we could NOT sell Z-Wave Plus Certified products without recertifying for each official release. That's why what we sell on Amazon still has 5.3.0. And, thus my question. With kind regards, Michel 1
larryllix Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said: Just to reiterate, we were adamantly told that we could NOT sell Z-Wave Plus Certified products without recertifying for each official release. That's why what we sell on Amazon still has 5.3.0. And, thus my question. With kind regards, Michel So the next official release would be ISY V6.0.x then, or would it have to involve the tens digit ?? Edited January 27, 2022 by larryllix
lilyoyo1 Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 I think a good way to put an end to this same argument would be to stop giving them a name unless its specifically an alpha, beta, or official. The next release would be 5.3.5> 5.3.6> and so forth. 1
simplextech Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 27 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I think a good way to put an end to this same argument would be to stop giving them a name unless its specifically an alpha, beta, or official. The next release would be 5.3.5> 5.3.6> and so forth. I agree with this. V 5 is the "official" every other version would be a feature or minor/patch update. 5.x.x = Major 5.3.x = Feature 5.3.x = Patch 1 1
blueman2 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 On 1/16/2022 at 7:20 PM, chris.com said: I would like to suggest to the forum moderators that there be a sticky post that officially states what the official, fully-supported versions are and provide download links. I'm happy to read the threads on the alpha, betas, and test builds, but I would like to wait until a version has UD's official blessing before I take the plunge. Great comments and help by everyone here. This is what is so unique about this ISY community. People are willing to help others, we have experts here who can go as deep as you need in order to really understand something, all while not being demeaning or dismissive of anyone asking basic questions. But I still want to get back to the OP's original point. We should have a Pinned post, always kept as the very top post in this subforum, that is titled something like "Current firmware". That post should list the most recent firmware that we suggest people use (e.g. 5.3.4), along with the pros and cons of other potential firmware options. It should be a closed post without discussion. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 18 minutes ago, blueman2 said: Great comments and help by everyone here. This is what is so unique about this ISY community. People are willing to help others, we have experts here who can go as deep as you need in order to really understand something, all while not being demeaning or dismissive of anyone asking basic questions. But I still want to get back to the OP's original point. We should have a Pinned post, always kept as the very top post in this subforum, that is titled something like "Current firmware". That post should list the most recent firmware that we suggest people use (e.g. 5.3.4), along with the pros and cons of other potential firmware options. It should be a closed post without discussion. I thought that's how it was now except people have commented on it? The 5.3.4 is at the top of current releases and the other firmwares are under the previous releases subforum 3
Geddy Posted January 30, 2022 Posted January 30, 2022 On 1/28/2022 at 11:49 AM, blueman2 said: It should be a closed post without discussion. I agree with closing the post after announcement. Perhaps in the future we can manage that. Just it’s been generally accepted to troubleshoot issues in the same thread in the past (and current). It means learning a few new “tricks” by us to post new threads for problems rather than having one mega long thread with lots of different issues and general discussion. I, like many, appreciate the general discussions and back and forth in helping others, but sometimes fixes are lost in the shuffle, and even worse when others chime in (sometimes months later) that they have “the same issue”, but not the original issue the troubleshooting process starts all over. By closing announcement posts it would keep it “clean”. 1
lilyoyo1 Posted January 30, 2022 Posted January 30, 2022 9 hours ago, Geddy said: I agree with closing the post after announcement. Perhaps in the future we can manage that. Just it’s been generally accepted to troubleshoot issues in the same thread in the past (and current). It means learning a few new “tricks” by us to post new threads for problems rather than having one mega long thread with lots of different issues and general discussion. I, like many, appreciate the general discussions and back and forth in helping others, but sometimes fixes are lost in the shuffle, and even worse when others chime in (sometimes months later) that they have “the same issue”, but not the original issue the troubleshooting process starts all over. By closing announcement posts it would keep it “clean”. I think we should start putting these ideas to use in the future. The next release could drop the labels and be immediately closed (though i found the bug posts afterwards useful). Maybe a combination of the 2 would suffice. A sticky that's closed for the firmware and a new post immediately afterwards labeled for bugs to keep it all in 1 place. 1
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