Grouping Z-wave devices into Scenes

[peterathans]

Been an Insteon user for years and am starting a migration to Z-wave, but something I haven't seen in the forums yet - can Z-wave devices (say, two toggle switches) be grouped together into a Scene (to use Insteon terminology)? 

I think this is one powerful feature of Insteon, and one that I am using (I have a virtual 3-way lighting circuit with multiple switches that follow each other).  It's really nice that this feature is also integrated into the switches themselves and will work in the complete absence of any other programming or computer control.  Would hate to lose it....

[asbril]

I am all Zwave (some 80 Zwave devices) and two weeks ago I started to explore Scenes, as up to now I use only programs.  Michel told me that Zwave scenes should work faster than programs.

Unfortunately so far I have not been very successful in creating Zwave scenes :

(1) I was able to create a scene whereby specified devices went ON (as desired) but not OFF.

(2) Apparently one has to use a scene node of the selected control device which seems to imply a double-click on the switch. I doubt that my wife would remember to double-click.

I am as keen as you to make Zwave scenes work but so far not much success. 

[peterathans]

That does not sound encouraging.

So have you been emulating the Scene behavior by using a program?  How has it been working?  Much noticeable delay?

I'm actually quite amazed at how well the Insteon Scenes work, when I click one switch the other follows almost instantly.

Like you, I can't ask my wife or kids to "remember to double-click the switch when turning off"...

[brians]

I have successfully used z-wave devices as responders into existing Insteon scenes eg. a dimmer lamp controlled by an Insteon switchlinc, but never a 100% z-wave scene.

 

[mmb]

I have a z-wave test scene and it works as expected - off and on work fine. 

I don't have a z-wave wall switch to use as a controller in a full z-wave scene but as you noted an Insteon switch in a scene with Z-wave responders work fine as well.

[Michel Kohanim]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

(1) I was able to create a scene whereby specified devices went ON (as desired) but not OFF.

@asbril, I don't think you're doing it correctly. 

Please see @mmb's image above, note the dropdown with Default. For each device in a scene, you will see at least Default and Command. Now, click on the switches within the scene, in the picture above ZW_024. You will see the same dropdown. Now, if the switch supports Z-Wave scenes, you will see Z-Wave Scene in the drop down (but this is rare). If the device supports it, you will also see Z-Wave Association (much more prevalent). In short, if and only if your device supports it, you should use either Z-Wave Scene or Z-Wave Association. If your device does not support it, you will not see those options.

With regard to On but not Off, most probably the reason is that the switch is only sending On. You can check that on the Event Viewer by looking for DON (on) and DOF (off).

With kind regards,
Michel

[oberkc]

2 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Now, if the switch supports Z-Wave scenes, you will see Z-Wave Scene in the drop down (but this is rare). If the device supports it, you will also see Z-Wave Association (much more prevalent). In short, if and only if your device supports it, you should use either Z-Wave Scene or Z-Wave Association. If your device does not support it, you will not see those options.

I guess none of my devices supports either.  I have a good number of GE/Jasco switches and outlets.  I have a smaller number of Leviton switches.  I have yet to come across a zwave device or node that gives me an option to choose these scene or association options.  Is there a particular brand or model that support these link types?

[Michel Kohanim]

@oberkc,

Are you clicking on the node inside the scene? Also, are you on 5.3.4?

With kind regards,
Michel

[peterathans]

So if I interpret the last two posts correctly, different Zwave toggle switches can (and probably will?) have different features?  

Is there an easy way to tell if a product has the feature I'm looking for?

And what's the difference between the two features mentioned above (Z-Wave Scene and Z-Wave Association)?

[oberkc]

37 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Also, are you on 5.3.4?

On 5.3.2.  Is the association capability only available with the latest version?

 

38 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Are you clicking on the node inside the scene?

Yes.  I have clicked on the primary node, along with various other nodes, including those called "basic scene control".

[asbril]

2 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

il, I don't think you're doing it correctly. 

@Michel Kohanim? I am pretty sure that you are right ! Now I need to find out what I am doing wrong.

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, peterathans said:

So if I interpret the last two posts correctly, different Zwave toggle switches can (and probably will?) have different features? 

That is my understanding, as well

 

1 hour ago, peterathans said:

Is there an easy way to tell if a product has the feature I'm looking for?

The only thing that I have come across is the web page for the Z-wave alliance:

https://products.z-wavealliance.org

This page provides, among other things, a list of certified devices and their features.  Unfortunately, I am not confident in the accuracy of this.  If I read it correctly, the Jasco switches (of which I own a few) have association capabilities.  Despite this, I remain unable to create an association with these devices.

1 hour ago, peterathans said:

And what's the difference between the two features mentioned above (Z-Wave Scene and Z-Wave Association)?

As best I can tell, the zwave feature which allows direct communication and links between two or more zwave devices is known as "associations", which I assume is analogous to Insteon "scenes".  I have not seen the term "scene" in my research of the zwave protocol.  Perhaps someone could clear this up if I misunderstand.

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, oberkc said:

As best I can tell, the zwave feature which allows direct communication and links between two or more zwave devices is known as "associations", which I assume is analogous to Insteon "scenes".  I have not seen the term "scene" in my research of the zwave protocol.  Perhaps someone could clear this up if I misunderstand.

 

Z-Wave Associations are a device to device association and requires a controller to configure those associations.  Setting up a ISY "Scene" is not the same thing.  As far as I know currently the ISY does not support setting up/managing Z-Wave Associations.

The Z-Wave protocol does not support "Scenes".  You will find "Scene Controllers" which are usually keypads or buttons made with the intention of use with direct associations.  

[asbril]

9 minutes ago, simplextech said:

 

Z-Wave Associations are a device to device association and requires a controller to configure those associations.  Setting up a ISY "Scene" is not the same thing.  As far as I know currently the ISY does not support setting up/managing Z-Wave Associations.

The Z-Wave protocol does not support "Scenes".  You will find "Scene Controllers" which are usually keypads or buttons made with the intention of use with direct associations.  

This could explain my lack of success.  The devices that I am using in the scene all have Scene Nodes, but they all only have the option of Default, Command or Ignore.

[simplextech]

1 minute ago, asbril said:

This could explain my lack of success.  The devices that I am using in the scene all have Scene Nodes, but they all only have the option of Default, Command or Ignore.

What devices are you trying to use for a Scene?  Generally Dimmers, Switches, work fine in a ISY Scene for common functions of on/off/dim/bright.  However you won't get the full Insteon functionaity from Z-Wave devices inside a Scene.  You also won't have synchronized lighting control with Z-Wave like you will with Insteon as the Z-Wave protocol doesn't have a multicast or group functionality (yet).

[oberkc]

12 minutes ago, simplextech said:

Z-Wave Associations are a device to device association and requires a controller to configure those associations.  Setting up a ISY "Scene" is not the same thing.  As far as I know currently the ISY does not support setting up/managing Z-Wave Associations.

Perhaps, but I am trying to reconcile that statement with the ISY Advanced User Guide (see a couple of attachments) which suggest (to me) that associations are part of the ISY capability and with the response from @Michel Kohanim below.  

 

3 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Now, if the switch supports Z-Wave scenes, you will see Z-Wave Scene in the drop down (but this is rare). If the device supports it, you will also see Z-Wave Association (much more prevalent). In short, if and only if your device supports it, you should use either Z-Wave Scene or Z-Wave Association.

 

[peterathans]

Curious about the statement "You also won't have synchronized lighting control with Z-Wave like you will with Insteon...".  I currently have 3 Insteon on/off switches controlling 2 circuits, and they are all linked in a scene (any one of the buttons pressed will switch both circuits together).

Are you saying z-wave doesn't support this functionality (yet)?

[simplextech]

11 minutes ago, peterathans said:

Curious about the statement "You also won't have synchronized lighting control with Z-Wave like you will with Insteon...".  I currently have 3 Insteon on/off switches controlling 2 circuits, and they are all linked in a scene (any one of the buttons pressed will switch both circuits together).

Are you saying z-wave doesn't support this functionality (yet)?

With Insteon if you have multiple dimmers in a Scene and you turn them on/off/dim/bright the action happens to all devices simultaneously. 

This is not the case with Z-Wave because Z-Wave is a serial protocol sending commands one at a time to each device.  This is where the "popcorn effect" term comes from.  You can visually notice the on/off of lights not being at the same time.  The more devices you try to control in unison with Z-Wave the more prominent the popcorn effect becomes.  

[simplextech]

14 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Perhaps, but I am trying to reconcile that statement with the ISY Advanced User Guide (see a couple of attachments) which suggest (to me) that associations are part of the ISY capability and with the response from @Michel Kohanim below.  

Then I will stand back and let UD support handle this.  I'm just going based on memory of previous Z-Wave testing.

[asbril]

41 minutes ago, simplextech said:

What devices are you trying to use for a Scene?  Generally Dimmers, Switches, work fine in a ISY Scene for common functions of on/off/dim/bright.  However you won't get the full Insteon functionaity from Z-Wave devices inside a Scene.  You also won't have synchronized lighting control with Z-Wave like you will with Insteon as the Z-Wave protocol doesn't have a multicast or group functionality (yet).

I only have Zwave devices

[brians]

I am using ISY on Polisy 5.3.0 and do not have any of those Z-Wave Scene or Z-Wave association options..

When I create a Z-Wave only scene between a couple Jasco wall switches, it takes about 1-2 seconds for the other zwave switch to respond. Lets hope they fix this in a future update with association options.

But having said that, if I create a program that detects a z-wave switch on, and turns on another z-wave, it is only about half a second in comparison to the scene method, therefore I think something may be wrong with ISY Z-Wave scene handling... there is some overhead there definitely and I think it should be faster.

Also when controlling Z-Wave devices in a scene from an Insteon device eg. a keypadlinc button, it is fast with about the same short half second delay as my program. 

I also notice cosmetically that when adding a Z-Wave as a controller, the ISY does not "remember" it is a controller and I it only shows this device is a responder for.... scene name on the right pane. But there is a difference when looking in the actual scene and shows the pulldown option so it is in fact setting up as a controller. If I remove and re-add as responder only then it does not show the pulldown.

 

[asbril]

15 hours ago, brians said:

I am using ISY on Polisy 5.3.0 and do not have any of those Z-Wave Scene or Z-Wave association options..

When I create a Z-Wave only scene between a couple Jasco wall switches, it takes about 1-2 seconds for the other zwave switch to respond. Lets hope they fix this in a future update with association options.

But having said that, if I create a program that detects a z-wave switch on, and turns on another z-wave, it is only about half a second in comparison to the scene method, therefore I think something may be wrong with ISY Z-Wave scene handling... there is some overhead there definitely and I think it should be faster.

Also when controlling Z-Wave devices in a scene from an Insteon device eg. a keypadlinc button, it is fast with about the same short half second delay as my program. 

I also notice cosmetically that when adding a Z-Wave as a controller, the ISY does not "remember" it is a controller and I it only shows this device is a responder for.... scene name on the right pane. But there is a difference when looking in the actual scene and shows the pulldown option so it is in fact setting up as a controller. If I remove and re-add as responder only then it does not show the pulldown.

 

I have done some reading on this and found out that Zwave Associations do indeed exist, but  I am not sure whether the issue is ISY or the actual devices, depending on  the manufacturers.

ISY is Zwave certified (5.3 or 5.3.3 ?) and  therefore I have some doubt that it would be an ISY issue.

[brians]

@asbrilSince you only use ISY, and have a lot of, Z-wave devices, I am curious why you are not using another controller? For the majority of people that use ISY, it is because they have a lot invested in Insteon.

I just reloaded my old ISY994i with the Z-Wave only firmware. It is on 5.3.4 so I will see if there are any differences. I just got in a couple Jasco Ultra Pro switches I will test later.

I remember now that I added a switchlinc relay to a Jasco switch that was a controller in a scene, and was also slow to respond 1-2 seconds... maybe it is just the keypadlinc that seem faster. A better test is later I will setup an Insteon 2477D as a controller for a Z-Wave lamp dimmer and see if performs the same as a keypadlinc key.

 

[brians]

Ok I have done some tests on my Polisy with Z-Wave and Insteon.

Test 1: With one Insteon 2477D and a GE/Jasco Enbrighten ZW4008 Z-Wave in wall paddle switch - both added to an Insteon scene:

Control from ISY is near instant to either switch, Insteon maybe a bit faster.

Control from the 2477D turns on/off the Z-Wave switch near instant.

Control from the Z-Wave switch takes about 2-3 seconds to turn on/off the 2477D

 

Test 2: I remove both from scene and wrote a program that controls the 2477D from the Z-Wave switch status:

Control from Z-Wave switch takes about the same as scene, 2-3 seconds.

 

Looking at ISY, the on/off update is also slow 2-3 seconds delay from physically turning on/off the Jasco ZW4008 

However, I just started using these Jasco switches and I also remember not as much issue with some other Z-Wave I have.... for example a Zen17 relay I use to monitor a pump I remember was nearly instant when shorting the dry connections with a paperclip testing and watching ISY... so I investigate a bit further because most all of my wall switches are Insteon, and Z-Wave is just used for things like appliance modules, dimmers, water shutoff etc. I am just starting to explore Z-Wave for wall switches so this is a bit new to me.

It seems that these GE/Jasco ZW4008 model are slow sending out Z-Wave updates very slow compared to some other devices I have... in fact a Jasco Enbrighten in-wall motion switch ZW4006 is near instantaneous and is in very same gang box and I think that rules out a routing issue. A Leviton switch I have is also near instantaneous response on ISY when turning on/off physically, which is a surprise since it also has more overhead and processes a hail/query command because no instant status.

I just got two ultra pro ZW4008 less expensive models that GE brand and they have same slow response 2-3 seconds.

The ZW4006 (motion wall switch) would not control an Insteon scene like ZW4008 but a program does still work and is minimal delay.

Update:I tested the same Ultra Pro Jasco ZW4008 on both Polisy with S2 dongle, and my ISY994i with 500 series Z-Wave module - there is no difference and both take 2-3 seconds to receive an update from the switch. I will test a Zooz plug soon in same location, removing and re-adding, and follow-up.

I don't have any other Z-Wave light switches to test but will order one... any suggestions?

Conclusion:

Some Z-Wave devices are slow to report their status, and it seems right now that it is most likely not ISY's fault.

Until more testing, I will not buy anymore Jasco switches for now for anything major...  however I was just getting them for a couple bathrooms that I never bothered to install Insteon in the past, so not really going to be used in scenes. Maybe I will look at a Zooz switch next. Actually the only thing I use scenes for in Insteon is for virtual 3-way and linking keypads to buttons.

Be interesting to hear if others who have issues can also determine if it is a particular brand/model of Z-Wave switch.

Couple videos showing my test with Jasco Ultra Pro ZW4008... will test my Zooz plug which is the only other z-wave device that I have which has instant status. And I said earlier that my Leviton, with a hail program, respond almost instant on ISY when I physically turn on/off switch.

 

 

 

 

[brians]

Got my Zooz ZEN71 and it is way better than the Jasco.

The response when physically turning on/off the ZEN71 is nearly instant to the ISY - similar to Insteon. I added to a scene and perform nearly as fast.

Stay away from the Jasco brand switches.