In this case, you are specifying the scene itself as the controller (i.e. "Scene test") and thus it represents the ISY which already has associations set up so you won't see the 'Z-Wave' entries in the list.

In the device tree, you must select the actual Z-Wave controller inside the scene (e.g. "ZW 005 Binary Switch"), and then select the responder from the list of responders (e.g. "ZW 006 Binary Switch"). If the ISY has detected they are association compatible you will see the 'Z-Wave' entry in the link types available.

1 hour ago, Chris Jahn said:

In the device tree, you must select the actual Z-Wave controller inside the scene

Thanks Chris, I am not sure to understand and I will wait to see @kzboray's results. Right now I tried all the nodes (incl added basic) of a switch that has Association, as Controller, and another switch (with Association) as responder. and no success yet. we will get there. Thanks again.

Edited March 10, 20223 yr by asbril

9 hours ago, Chris Jahn said:

n the device tree, you must select the actual Z-Wave controller inside the scene (e.g. "ZW 005 Binary Switch"), and then select the responder from the list of responders (e.g. "ZW 006 Binary Switch"). If the ISY has detected they are association compatible you will see the 'Z-Wave' entry in the link types available.

I have set up a dummy scene to see if I could get this to work.  Controller is a custom "button press" node I added (existing nodes could not be added as a controller) and responder is, as you suggested, an added "basic" node.   Screen shot provided below.  As I have mentioned in other topics I have never seen the option to have a z-wave association, and this is no exception.  I am willing to accept the possibility that my particular devices don't have the ability for direct association, but my question remains: has anyone actually seen a z-wave device that works with ISY associations and, if so, what brand and model are they?

@Chris Jahn

Chris,

I played with this for about 30 minutes and there is no way that I can find from within IoP to do what you suggested.

Once I put ZW6 into a scene as a controller, there is no option to select other z-wave devices. Right clicking presents me with this.

Could you possibly show us with a step by step including screen shots of what we should be seeing? The three of us in this thread so far can't seem to figure it out.

19 hours ago, kzboray said:

@Chris Jahn

Chris,

I played with this for about 30 minutes and there is no way that I can find from within IoP to do what you suggested.

Once I put ZW6 into a scene as a controller, there is no option to select other z-wave devices. Right clicking presents me with this.

Could you possibly show us with a step by step including screen shots of what we should be seeing? The three of us in this thread so far can't seem to figure it out.

Based on this comment:

3) Both the controller and responder are linked to the ISY at the same security level (i.e S0 security or no security)

I think both of your devices need to be security=S0 or both security=none.  You have one device with none and the other at S0.  I'm not that knowledgeable on Zwave security, so it's possible these are the same, but I didn't think so.

The steps to create a native link if ISY detects that an association is allowed:

1) Add the Z-Wave responder DEVICE A to the scene (may be added as a controller or responder)

2) Add the Z-Wave controller DEVICE B to the scene (must be added as a controller)

3) In the Device tree under the Scene, select DEVICE B

4) In the table of responders select DEVICE A

5) If an association is available between DEVICE A and DEVICE B then you will see a 'Z-Wave' entry as one of the link options.

58 minutes ago, Chris Jahn said:

The steps to create a native link if ISY detects that an association is allowed:

1) Add the Z-Wave responder DEVICE A to the scene (may be added as a controller or responder)

2) Add the Z-Wave controller DEVICE B to the scene (must be added as a controller)

3) In the Device tree under the Scene, select DEVICE B

4) In the table of responders select DEVICE A

5) If an association is available between DEVICE A and DEVICE B then you will see a 'Z-Wave' entry as one of the link options.

Tried and failed.  Again.

And, again, I ask: has anyone actually seen "z-wave" as a link option and, if so, what devices do you have, brand and model.

 

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

Tried and failed.  Again.

And, again, I ask: has anyone actually seen "z-wave" as a link option and, if so, what devices do you have, brand and model.

 

@oberkc, maybe if @Chris Jahn could show up some screen shots and let us know what devices he's using?

12 hours ago, mmb said:

@oberkc, maybe if @Chris Jahn could show up some screen shots and let us know what devices he's using?

There are screenshots in the wiki or user manual so I am not sure I need to see those. I am not sure whether the screenshots in the wiki are simulated or whether they were with actual zwave devices (if so, it would be nice to know which devices, yes)  For me it is mostly a case that I have seen no one around here claim to have successfully done this. In fact, one or more have even claimed that the ISY does not support associations.

I was curious and so gave it a try. I think it works.

I have a Homeseer (I think the model is HS-200 - Older model with the multi-color lights). I added to scene as responder .

The controller is an Aeontec Multisensor 6. I added the motion sensor node to the scene. 

The, I selected the MS6 (Not the scene itself) and see responder table. From here I selected the Homeseer switch in the table. At the bottom of the page, the link-type drop-down now includes "Z-Wave Basic"

The MS6 now seems to control the switch in a "snappy fashion"

 

 

1 hour ago, gviliunas said:

The MS6 now seems to control the switch in a "snappy fashion"

Finally!  ?

3 hours ago, gviliunas said:

I have a Homeseer (I think the model is HS-200 - Older model with the multi-color lights). I added to scene as responder .

I guess I will have to try a couple of homeseer switches.

Based on what gviliunas did, I thought maybe it works with motion sensors... I tried with only motion sensor device and realized that it depends on what node you add for the device and what the device is.

In my case, I am testing a Jasco in-wall motion switch and another Jasco regular switch and I attempt to control the other switch based on an event (hopefully motion) from the controller switch.

I used the Notify Sensor node from the motion switch, which then enabled an additional option in the scene other than the Command, Default, and Ignore. I cannot remember exactly what it was called but was named Z-Wave something and ended with MC... the reason I cannot remember is then everything suddenly went sideways...

It started writing updates to the Z-Wave device... then I would get communication errors on the other device. Then my entire Z-Wave network became unresponsive. I was able to remove both devices however no other Z-Wave would work and would give communication error. Rebooting IoP did not resolve, rebooting entire Polisy did resolve fortunately. I then added back the two switches and strange enough they retained the same Node ID numbers as before - not sure why this is, maybe they were not removed correctly before from the dongle and it recovered them somehow. Anyways I spent about 45 min fixing this so I am hesitant on testing any other Z-Wave stuff right now on Polisy LOL. I have my ISY994i that I will use to test.

 

 

The deeper we get into Z-Wave the more I appreciate Insteon...

not sure it matters - but were the devices added to the isy before or after installing 5.3.4?

 

I definitely want to explore the z-wave scene thing, but I am a little surprised (if not even disappointed) that the association ability does not seem to apply to the ISY (zwave board, or dongle, I guess).  My end-of-day shutdown has grown increasingly long, and this is due (best I can tell) from having to turn off increasingly large number of zwave devices.  I assume these must be done with individual device commands rather than by some group command.

@RPerrault, My devices were all added long ago, well before 5.4.3

It appears that the Aeotec Multisensor 6 motion sensor does indeed work as a controller in a Z-Wave scene.  The motion sensors in my Jasco switches/dimmers to not.  I'm not sure what the difference is, as the Multisensors seem to have mostly the same set of commands that the Jasco switches/dimmers have.

Lots to learn here...

Aeotec Multisensor 6 node details:

Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW 008 Motion Sensor 1
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW008_155 uid=8 security=None type=4.33.1 mid=134 tid=258 pid=100
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] Association Group ID 1
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW008_1 - Primary Isy Node
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x20  V1   BASIC
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5E  V2   ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x86  V2   VERSION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x72  V2   MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x59  V1   ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x85  V2   ASSOCIATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x73  V1   POWERLEVEL
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x71  V3   NOTIFICATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x84  V2   WAKE_UP
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x80  V1   BATTERY
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x30  V1   SENSOR_BINARY
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x31  V5   SENSOR_MULTILEVEL
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x70  V1   CONFIGURATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x7A  V2   FIRMWARE_UPDATE_MD
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  xEF  V0   MARK
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5A  V1   DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] - Secure
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Sun 03/13/2022 06:29:02 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------

Jasco motion sensor node details:

Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW 025 Motion Sensor 1
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW025_155 uid=25 security=None type=4.16.1 mid=99 tid=18765 pid=12338
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] Association Group ID 1
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ZW025_1 - Primary Isy Node
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x20  V1   BASIC
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5E  V2   ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x72  V2   MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x5A  V1   DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x73  V1   POWERLEVEL
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x27  V1   SWITCH_ALL
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x25  V1   SWITCH_BINARY
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x2B  V1   SCENE_ACTIVATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x2C  V1   SCENE_ACTUATOR_CONF
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x70  V1   CONFIGURATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x86  V2   VERSION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x71  V4   NOTIFICATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x60  V4   MULTI_CHANNEL
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x8E  V3   MULTI_CHANNEL_ASSOCIATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x85  V2   ASSOCIATION
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x59  V1   ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x7A  V2   FIRMWARE_UPDATE_MD
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ]    -  x56  V1   CRC_16_ENCAP
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] - Secure
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] 
Sun 03/13/2022 06:30:44 : [ZW-SHOW         ] ----------------------------------------------

 

Edited March 13, 20223 yr by Bumbershoot

11 hours ago, oberkc said:

I definitely want to explore the z-wave scene thing, but I am a little surprised (if not even disappointed) that the association ability does not seem to apply to the ISY (zwave board, or dongle, I guess).  My end-of-day shutdown has grown increasingly long, and this is due (best I can tell) from having to turn off increasingly large number of zwave devices.  I assume these must be done with individual device commands rather than by some group command.

Unfortunately that's zwave for you. Their associations are for device to device communication not controller to device. The closest feature they have for what you're looking for is the deprecated all on/all off command which will turn off every single device that supports it.

17 hours ago, brians said:

Based on what gviliunas did, I thought maybe it works with motion sensors... I tried with only motion sensor device and realized that it depends on what node you add for the device and what the device is.

In my case, I am testing a Jasco in-wall motion switch and another Jasco regular switch and I attempt to control the other switch based on an event (hopefully motion) from the controller switch.

I used the Notify Sensor node from the motion switch, which then enabled an additional option in the scene other than the Command, Default, and Ignore. I cannot remember exactly what it was called but was named Z-Wave something and ended with MC... the reason I cannot remember is then everything suddenly went sideways...

It started writing updates to the Z-Wave device... then I would get communication errors on the other device. Then my entire Z-Wave network became unresponsive. I was able to remove both devices however no other Z-Wave would work and would give communication error. Rebooting IoP did not resolve, rebooting entire Polisy did resolve fortunately. I then added back the two switches and strange enough they retained the same Node ID numbers as before - not sure why this is, maybe they were not removed correctly before from the dongle and it recovered them somehow. Anyways I spent about 45 min fixing this so I am hesitant on testing any other Z-Wave stuff right now on Polisy LOL. I have my ISY994i that I will use to test.

 

 

I must admit that I did not try any motion sensors in my experiments.  Because of your experience, I tried linking one of my motion sensors to one of my switches (both z-wave).  Amazingly, I now had the "z-wave association" as an option for link type.  I selected this link type and updated.  Wow!

As a further test, I triggered the motion sensor to see if the switch would respond.  Nope.  

Baby steps, I suppose.  

1 hour ago, oberkc said:

I must admit that I did not try any motion sensors in my experiments.  Because of your experience, I tried linking one of my motion sensors to one of my switches (both z-wave).  Amazingly, I now had the "z-wave association" as an option for link type.  I selected this link type and updated.  Wow!

As a further test, I triggered the motion sensor to see if the switch would respond.  Nope.  

Baby steps, I suppose.  

so far I have no luck. I ordered a Zwave 700 sensor and when I receive it, then I will try again.

I have a "test" scene with a z-wave motion sensor and a z-wave switch.  To that scene I have also added a basic node to that switch and also included this node into the scene.  The link type for the two switch nodes are "z-wave association" but the switch does NOT respond to a motion sensor trigger.  I wonder if the"action" column in the scene table is an indication of the problem.  The action says "no parameters".  

So far here the only devices that are reported in this thread which add the z-wave options in a scene are motion sensors.

From reading here, looks as if other hubs like hubitat can do...

https://support.inovelli.com/portal/en/kb/articles/how-to-use-the-z-wave-association-tool-hubitat

This is a support from inovelli on hubitat, but I get the impression that hubitat can work with any brand of switch that supports associations.

An acknowledgement from UD regarding this support in IoP would be nice... whether or not they plan to support this.

 

Edited March 13, 20223 yr by brians

Good find @brians.  Something interesting in that support page is they make a distinction between a Source device and a Destination device, and they specifically say the Source is "the device that does not have the “load” (or light) attached to it" and the Destination "is the switch or dimmer that has a “load” (light) attached to it".  This makes me wonder if this association is a true controller-responder connection like the Insteon products have, where each on/off toggle switch both controls and responds to the other(s).

This is exactly my situation, where I have two different circuits and I want them to follow each other.  I'm getting worried I won't be able to keep this functionality if I move from Insteon to Zwave.

I'm hoping to buy a couple Zooz ZEN71 switches and see what I can do.

1 hour ago, brians said:

So far here the only devices that are reported in this thread which add the z-wave options in a scene are motion sensors.

From reading here, looks as if other hubs like hubitat can do...

https://support.inovelli.com/portal/en/kb/articles/how-to-use-the-z-wave-association-tool-hubitat

This is a support from inovelli on hubitat, but I get the impression that hubitat can work with any brand of switch that supports associations.

An acknowledgement from UD regarding this support in IoP would be nice... whether or not they plan to support this.

 

The Hubitat instructions appear not complicated, but what about adding the Inovelli code ?