Grouping Z-wave devices into Scenes

[brians]

@peterathansI have three Zen71 switches but haven't installed any of them other than one in a test box. I did make an ISY scene with another device. I posted this earlier, but will say again here briefly that the Zen71 report their status back almost instantly to the ISY whereas a Jasco equivalent seem to have some firmware issue which takes 2-3 seconds (it is uncertain if we ever got associations to work on these devices if this would become faster or still 2-3 seconds). Regardless, for now I think you could make a scene with a couple Zen71 by adding them both as controller and just using the "Default" in an ISY scene. The speed of all this round-trip to the ISY and back to the other switch is fairly fast - not as fast as Insteon, but still is very fast with a Zen71.

Realize that if you do this method, it requires the ISY to handle the scene, but ISY is reliable - at least my ISY994i I can confirm it runs without errors. My IoP I cannot claim this due to lack of experience/history with it and the stage it is at now there are lots of updates/messing around now but should stabilize - when I leave it alone, it doesn't ever seem to crash for no apparent reason

 

 

[asbril]

43 minutes ago, brians said:

@peterathansI have three Zen71 switches but haven't installed any of them other than one in a test box. I did make an ISY scene with another device. I posted this earlier, but will say again here briefly that the Zen71 report their status back almost instantly to the ISY whereas a Jasco equivalent seem to have some firmware issue which takes 2-3 seconds (it is uncertain if we ever got associations to work on these devices if this would become faster or still 2-3 seconds). Regardless, for now I think you could make a scene with a couple Zen71 by adding them both as controller and just using the "Default" in an ISY scene. The speed of all this round-trip to the ISY and back to the other switch is fairly fast - not as fast as Insteon, but still is very fast with a Zen71.

Realize that if you do this method, it requires the ISY to handle the scene, but ISY is reliable - at least my ISY994i I can confirm it runs without errors. My IoP I cannot claim this due to lack of experience/history with it and the stage it is at now there are lots of updates/messing around now but should stabilize - when I leave it alone, it doesn't ever seem to crash for no apparent reason

 

 

I also noted that a 700 series switch is fast even with a 500 dongle and therefore I suppose that with Polisy and 700 dongle plus 700 switches the  turn-around would be very fast, whether in a scene or a program.

[bhihifi]

I spent entirely too much time going down this rabbit hole, trying to make my Z-wave devices show associations. I have several devices from various manufacturers (Jasco, Linear, Inovelli) that all claim to support associations based on the controller and none of them expose associations as a feature.

I don't plan to use Z-wave association scenes because of the need to manage dependencies at the device level. For me, scenes with Polisy/IOP are more maintainable and the dependencies more explicit.

Other than the possibility of faster response, I don't fully understand why a Z-wave association might be preferable to an ISY scene built in the admin console or a program that accomplishes the same effect.

 

 

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, bhihifi said:

Other than the possibility of faster response, I don't fully understand why a Z-wave association might be preferable to an ISY scene built in the admin console or a program that accomplishes the same effect.

For me, the potential benefit is end-of-day shutdown.  I had noticed that my "whole house" scene takes much longer to turn off, and I believe this to be the result of an increasing number of z-wave devices within that scene.  My hope was to put all z-wave devices into an association  and shut them all off at once, avoiding the time it takes when they are part of an ISY scene.  But...I am reaching the conclusion that this is not likely to happen any time soon.

 

[asbril]

1 hour ago, bhihifi said:

Other than the possibility of faster response, I don't fully understand why a Z-wave association might be preferable to an ISY scene built in the admin console or a program that accomplishes the same effect.

To the best of my understanding, the faster execution would exactly be the objective of association.

My suspicion is that series 700 switches with a 7 dongle (as in Polisy)  will speed up execution already, so maybe association may not be a big deal.

[peterathans]

I finally assembled a test setup to try this out.  Bought two new Zooz Zen71 switches.  The included documentation states "This on/off switch supports Group 1 with up to 1 devices for lifeline communication and Group 2 with up to 5 devices.  You can set direct association to have the switch control another Z-wave device independently of the hub by using Group 2.".

I had asked their tech support about this and got the same answer: "Z-Wave devices can be connected to each other via direct association and there are different groups depending on the device. Group 1 is where a device communicates directly with the hub, this it the main room if you will, where all of the devices meet.  Other groups, like group 2 and group 3, are ways to link Z-Wave devices independently of the hub, they are like separate rooms where the hub doesn't come in but where the devices meet to exchange information directly. This allows for a quicker and more reliable communication between devices. Both the ZEN71 and the ZEN76 support direct association.".

I wired the two switches in a 2-gang box with a pigtail and plugged them in.  Added both to my Polisy (5.4.1), talking to them with a Zooz 700 stick.

Polisy created five nodes for each switch:

- On-Off Power Switch

- Basic Scene Ctl 2

- Basic Scene Ctl 3

- Scene Button 1

- Scene Button 2

I created a new scene called Zwave Test Scene.  I tried adding each of the above-mentioned nodes to the scene, but when in the scene the dropdown box for each node never shows more than "Command / Default / Ignore".  According to what I understand from earlier posts, there should be additional options for Association (or similar).

@Michel Kohanim, am I understanding correctly?  I'm trying to figure out why the devices don't appear as their documents and tech rep report they should - I can only assume it's an issue on the Polisy side (and no complaints if this is an upcoming feature - I'm just trying to understand everything).

 

[asbril]

1 hour ago, peterathans said:

I finally assembled a test setup to try this out.  Bought two new Zooz Zen71 switches.  The included documentation states "This on/off switch supports Group 1 with up to 1 devices for lifeline communication and Group 2 with up to 5 devices.  You can set direct association to have the switch control another Z-wave device independently of the hub by using Group 2.".

I had asked their tech support about this and got the same answer: "Z-Wave devices can be connected to each other via direct association and there are different groups depending on the device. Group 1 is where a device communicates directly with the hub, this it the main room if you will, where all of the devices meet.  Other groups, like group 2 and group 3, are ways to link Z-Wave devices independently of the hub, they are like separate rooms where the hub doesn't come in but where the devices meet to exchange information directly. This allows for a quicker and more reliable communication between devices. Both the ZEN71 and the ZEN76 support direct association.".

I wired the two switches in a 2-gang box with a pigtail and plugged them in.  Added both to my Polisy (5.4.1), talking to them with a Zooz 700 stick.

Polisy created five nodes for each switch:

- On-Off Power Switch

- Basic Scene Ctl 2

- Basic Scene Ctl 3

- Scene Button 1

- Scene Button 2

I created a new scene called Zwave Test Scene.  I tried adding each of the above-mentioned nodes to the scene, but when in the scene the dropdown box for each node never shows more than "Command / Default / Ignore".  According to what I understand from earlier posts, there should be additional options for Association (or similar).

@Michel Kohanim, am I understanding correctly?  I'm trying to figure out why the devices don't appear as their documents and tech rep report they should - I can only assume it's an issue on the Polisy side (and no complaints if this is an upcoming feature - I'm just trying to understand everything).

 

This is helpful and I am sure that UD will follow up.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, peterathans said:

I finally assembled a test setup to try this out.  Bought two new Zooz Zen71 switches.  The included documentation states "This on/off switch supports Group 1 with up to 1 devices for lifeline communication and Group 2 with up to 5 devices.  You can set direct association to have the switch control another Z-wave device independently of the hub by using Group 2.".

I had asked their tech support about this and got the same answer: "Z-Wave devices can be connected to each other via direct association and there are different groups depending on the device. Group 1 is where a device communicates directly with the hub, this it the main room if you will, where all of the devices meet.  Other groups, like group 2 and group 3, are ways to link Z-Wave devices independently of the hub, they are like separate rooms where the hub doesn't come in but where the devices meet to exchange information directly. This allows for a quicker and more reliable communication between devices. Both the ZEN71 and the ZEN76 support direct association.".

I wired the two switches in a 2-gang box with a pigtail and plugged them in.  Added both to my Polisy (5.4.1), talking to them with a Zooz 700 stick.

Polisy created five nodes for each switch:

- On-Off Power Switch

- Basic Scene Ctl 2

- Basic Scene Ctl 3

- Scene Button 1

- Scene Button 2

I created a new scene called Zwave Test Scene.  I tried adding each of the above-mentioned nodes to the scene, but when in the scene the dropdown box for each node never shows more than "Command / Default / Ignore".  According to what I understand from earlier posts, there should be additional options for Association (or similar).

@Michel Kohanim, am I understanding correctly?  I'm trying to figure out why the devices don't appear as their documents and tech rep report they should - I can only assume it's an issue on the Polisy side (and no complaints if this is an upcoming feature - I'm just trying to understand everything).

 

When scene control 2 is used, what options does command give you? 

[brians]

Seems like other systems can do this. 
 

https://www.support.getzooz.com/kb/article/591-how-to-program-your-zen34-remote-switch-on-home-assistant/

However from what I see others showing how to do things in HA (eg YouTube videos) it seems that they just do everything through the controller and spend most of time messing with yaml LOL.

Also read that can get confusing when programming setting associations. The only reason I would use is a virtual 3-way maybe. Also seems limit of 5 associations per device  

i wonder if possible to temporarily put the zwave stick in a windows pc and use other software to like the zwave controller to setup associations. It seems it is independent of the main controller  

 

[peterathans]

@lilyoyo1, when I select Basic Scene Ctl 2, the Command setting has only one option, which is Query

[peterathans]

@brians, I was wondering the same thing - this Association is something that needs to be configured within the two switches and is independent of the controller, so it's a setting that would need to be written to those devices at some point.  Settings that reside within Polisy don't seem to be applicable.

[BamBamF16]

I got a direct scene done with my switches IAW UD directions. 

[mmb]

On 3/25/2022 at 8:03 PM, brians said:

 it seems that they just do everything through the controller and spend most of time messing with yaml LOL.

Yaml ?

[mwester]

Yep.  XML is much better.

[mmb]

1 minute ago, mwester said:

Yep.  XML is much better.

Yup...?

[brians]

1 hour ago, BamBamF16 said:

I got a direct scene done with my switches IAW UD directions. 

Please explain how you have done this, what model of switches, and what IAW means. 

[hart2hart]

In Accordance with

[brians]

31 minutes ago, hart2hart said:

In Accordance with

Ahh ok. Wonder what was the model of switches that work!  Someone here has tried a zooz zen71 without success. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by brians

[Michel Kohanim]

@peterathans,

Working on an updated UI that is less restrictive than what Z-Wave certification requires. Should have something fairly soon.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[brians]

This is interesting reading...

https://drzwave.blog/tag/z-wave/

https://drzwave.blog/2021/02/01/controlling-flirs-via-associations/

 

I have another S2 stick on its way which I will use to experiment with some switches in order to learn more about this.

 

[asbril]

10 minutes ago, brians said:

This is interesting reading...

https://drzwave.blog/tag/z-wave/

https://drzwave.blog/2021/02/01/controlling-flirs-via-associations/

 

I have another S2 stick on its way which I will use to experiment with some switches in order to learn more about this.

 

Interesting reading, but do we translate this into ISY ....

Edited March 29, 2022 by asbril

[brians]

2 minutes ago, asbril said:

Interesting reading, but do we translate this into ISY ....

I think what UD would like to do is make this all seamless using their existing scenes, but I am guessing that the main problem they are probably running into is the various devices out there which may be difficult to query/set the associations in a standard way; probably why other hubs have a "driver" model, or a scene association utility, or just don't bother with direct association and encourage you to use the "central scene" method via the controller?!?

I can see another issue if one has a direct association on a switch with another device, then exclude/include it and node ID changes. Actually this will break Z-Wave scenes and programs in ISY anyways because they use the Z-wave Node ID for creating/naming the device.

[asbril]

37 minutes ago, brians said:

I think what UD would like to do is make this all seamless using their existing scenes, but I am guessing that the main problem they are probably running into is the various devices out there which may be difficult to query/set the associations in a standard way; probably why other hubs have a "driver" model, or a scene association utility, or just don't bother with direct association and encourage you to use the "central scene" method via the controller?!?

I can see another issue if one has a direct association on a switch with another device, then exclude/include it and node ID changes. Actually this will break Z-Wave scenes and programs in ISY anyways because they use the Z-wave Node ID for creating/naming the device.

My nr 1 interest is to "associate" motion  sensors with lights. In these cases time is of the eseence. In other situations such as programmed  3-way (if light A is ON then B is ON), a ISY program is suitable, even if there is a 1 or 2 second delay.

[brians]

4 minutes ago, asbril said:

My nr 1 interest is to "associate" motion  sensors with lights. In these cases time is of the eseence. In other situations such as programmed  3-way (if light A is ON then B is ON), a ISY program is suitable, even if there is a 1 or 2 second delay.

I believe you are running a test Polisy, if so why don't you try taking out the S2 stick and put in your PC. Then try to do the associations based on the info from my links above. The controller and device associations are all store on the stick so you should be able to change settings direct in the PC Z-Wave Controller app. Keep note of the node ID numbers in ISY for reference in the program.

 

[asbril]

6 minutes ago, brians said:

I believe you are running a test Polisy, if so why don't you try taking out the S2 stick and put in your PC. Then try to do the associations based on the info from my links above. The controller and device associations are all store on the stick so you should be able to change settings direct in the PC Z-Wave Controller app. Keep note of the node ID numbers in ISY for reference in the program.

 

I am not sure what it means to have a "test Polisy" (*), but your instructions to change the settings on the PC may be too complicated for me. So, I will wait for what Michel posted earlier.

(*)  If this means having a separate Polisy for testing, then the answer is no.... I only have one Polisy.