With Insteon in limited supply, what to do with ISY and Polisy?

[telljcl]

I have a large number of insteon devices, and have been using it since it's inception - 15 years maybe?

Don't have many spares left in my inventory, either.

ZW has been very hit and miss for me (mostly miss - I have the ZW500 board in my 994) and I don't think that is a viable alternative as my Insteon devices die off.

I bought a Polisy when they came out to run an app to control my Venstar T.Stats instead of running it on my PC, but the app never came out for Polisy so I haven't used it.

So - what is the future, if any, for ISY / Insteon / Polisy?

I see something about running ISY FW on the Polisy? I'm way out of the loop I guess, so any help bringing me to the present WRT the whole situation would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[JTsao]

In my opinion, Insteon is still the best option for in wall switches - I plan to continue using mine for a long time.  Also, with ISY on Polisy, you can upgrade to a much better Z-wave controller (Zooz USB stick) - with this controller Z-wave works much better - I am in the process of adding some additional Z-wave equipment including a motion sensor, in-wall outlet and plug in smart outlet - some of this type of Z-wave equipment may be a better option going forward than the Insteon counterparts - for example the Insteon on-off module plastic always breaks and I think the battery life on a 700 series Z-wave motion detector will be longer than the old Insteon MDs - not to mention, supply chain problems preventing the ability to buy the Insteon parts - so far all of my old Z-wave locks (300 series) and other Z-wave plus equipment has been working WAY better than with the ISY z-wave module

[lilyoyo1]

There's the UD Mobile app which has been out for over a year that can be used with the Isy and polisy. I'm not a fan of the interface so I don't use it but there are many others here that use it successfully and are happy with it. 

I'll be the first to say that zwave sucks for lighting but it's usable to a certain degree depending on what matters to you and how you use it. The problem with most new zwave users (especially those with existing systems) is that most do not take the time to invest in build a strong mesh network. They'll get 1-3 devices and think everything should be perfect. Users who invest in building out their network normally do not have system issues though the experience itself is lacking. This holds true with any automation system. If deployed improperly, even pro level systems such as Ra2 will leave a bad taste. 

The future is unknown but at the same time comes down to the individual and what best fits their needs, finances, and commitment level. The main thing is being willing to fully research the pros and cons of any system. Investing the time, money, and effort to see if it meets your needs and how to deploy it to achieve maximum results and grow into future expansion and capabilities. 

Controllers such as the Isy actually make things easier since you aren't bound to just insteon and zwave. With the way I control my home, i could get away with any supported switch to control hue bulbs. My actual plan is to use Lutron radio ra3 with polisy (if it supports it) or Control4 (potentially with Ra3).

[bgrubb1]

and you mentioned Venstar

I am running the Venstar Node server  works great, its part of my energy management

[MrBill]

2 hours ago, telljcl said:

but the app never came out for Polisy so I haven't used it.

It's been around for at least 2 years.  it's available in the polyglot2 store.

it will be a long time before i retire my Insteon system.

I also suspect you'll be able to buy Insteon switches again.

[telljcl]

58 minutes ago, MrBill said:

It's been around for at least 2 years.  it's available in the polyglot2 store.

it will be a long time before i retire my Insteon system.

I also suspect you'll be able to buy Insteon switches again.

I used to use "Venlink" for PC, then I think "ioguy", IIRC, changed it to "Nodelink", which I still use on PC, but I read off and on about issues with using it with Polisy, and why ioguy said he was running into issues, but apparently that has been rectified - good to know for sure.

As far as "ISY on Polisy" - what does this mean? Can I replace the ISY with Polisy, and still use programs etc?

If this is possible, is there a way to use another PLM instead of the 2413s (I think that is the one), since they are hard to come by and apparently also discontinued?

Sorry for basic questions - my system has actually been running pretty well for years now (excepting zwave wonkiness) so haven't been keeping up.

Thank you

 

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, telljcl said:

As far as "ISY on Polisy" - what does this mean? Can I replace the ISY with Polisy, and still use programs etc?

ISY is a software application which runs alongside Polyglot on Polisy.   It essentially replaces your isy994 hardware.  ISY on polisy is much faster than ISY994.   You can restore your ISY994 backup on polisy, and probably make a few minor adjustments.

5 minutes ago, telljcl said:

If this is possible, is there a way to use another PLM instead of the 2413s (I think that is the one), since they are hard to come by and apparently also discontinued?

ISY on Polisy can use 1) 2413s 2)2413u or 3) 2448A7 as the PLM.  None of which are currently in stock at smarthome.  None of which have been officially "discontinued" either.  Supply chain issues have his smarthome hard, but they aren't out of business, nor have they removed these products from the sale pages.   To illustrate the difference... Insteon 2845 Hidden door sensor was officially discontinued-- it no longer shows on smarthomes pages as an Insteon product.   So while you may be certain that Insteon is a done deal... no one else is.   Smartlabs is owned these days my Richmond Capital Partners... they have cash to spend, and RCP has investment that they shouldn't want to lose... I seriously doubt inseon is dead, but if that's what you want to believe... Please move on to something bigger and better for you.

13 minutes ago, telljcl said:

Sorry for basic questions - my system has actually been running pretty well for years now (excepting zwave wonkiness) so haven't been keeping up.

I expect I'll be able to keep my system running for many years to come.  I have some spares, but I expect product will be available again.

Oh by the way... PLMs are repairable in most cases, and there's a guy on ebay that will repair PLMs for a fee, or another guy on ebay that sells capacitor kits if you want to DIY the repair.

[dbwarner5]

17 hours ago, telljcl said:

As far as "ISY on Polisy" - what does this mean? Can I replace the ISY with Polisy, and still use programs etc?

Just to echo what @MrBill said above, in slightly more words as it IS confusing if you are just catching up to Polisy:

• ISY is a software package
• For the last ~12 years, it has run on a piece of hardware called the 994i
• The Polisy is a new much much faster (with more memory) piece of hardware.
• The ISY software can run on the Polisy hardware and hence we now have the Isy on Polisy, or IoP.
• Additionally, the Polisy can also run other software packages called Polyglots. 
• There are currently two different Polyglots that can run on the Polisy: PG2 and PG3
• PG2 is being phased out as PG3 continues to reach stability. Currently PG3 is in Alpha stage, hopefully moving to Beta soon. 
• These Polyglots run additional software packages called node servers.
• node servers allow other third party products, other than Insteon and zwave, to be incorporated into the ISY as "nodes", ie a new switch in your tree, which then allows for monitoring, control and programming of these third party devices via the ISY software.
• node servers are currently free on PG2.
• PG3 will allow developers the option to charge for their Node server work in the future.
• (Lastly, there is an additional Polyglot package called PG Cloud. This was an initial attempt for running Polyglot w/o a Polisy and the software resided on a UDI server and hence the "cloud". This has been discontinued recently due to unresolvable security issues.)

In summary, the Polisy hardware is a far superior hardware device compared to the 994i and with the inclusion of Polyglots, expands the utility of the ISY software dramatically with over 100 different node servers currently on PG2 and >60 on PG3.

However, please note, the 994i was and is a FANTASTIC piece of hardware that most users would agree, has been ROCK solid for so long and will continue to be for ISY only, but it does not have the ability to take advantage into the future of the third party home automation proliferation.

Hope that helps!

[upstatemike]

It would also be good to note that IoP is not exactly the same as ISY on a 994i especially if you use Elk integration. I am a heavy user of Elk connected motion sensors and use my ISY as the bridge to trigger Alexa routines with them. I also use Elk voice responses to Insteon actions quite a lot. I probably can replicate all of this with an Elk Node server but I don't know that for sure or what kind of time investment would be required to reconfigure everything if it is possible.

[dbwarner5]

19 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

It would also be good to note that IoP is not exactly the same as ISY on a 994i especially if you use Elk integration. I am a heavy user of Elk connected motion sensors and use my ISY as the bridge to trigger Alexa routines with them. I also use Elk voice responses to Insteon actions quite a lot. I probably can replicate all of this with an Elk Node server but I don't know that for sure or what kind of time investment would be required to reconfigure everything if it is possible.

Mike, I was in the same boat. The switch to the Elk Node server wasn't too bad. Key was to do a copy / paste of all your programs into a text editor, then its easy to see what you need to fix. I have not found any shortcomings, but have seen other users comment about the lack of elk keypad feedback to the NS, but I didnt use that feature before so its not a problem. My elk integrates garage doors, sprinklers, motion sensors, voice pages etc and it all works great and at times I think it has a faster response to turning on lights via motions sensors than 994i / ISY/ Elk module, probably due to the speed and power of the Polisy. 

[telljcl]

18 hours ago, MrBill said:

ISY is a software application which runs alongside Polyglot on Polisy.   It essentially replaces your isy994 hardware.  ISY on polisy is much faster than ISY994.   You can restore your ISY994 backup on polisy, and probably make a few minor adjustments.

ISY on Polisy can use 1) 2413s 2)2413u or 3) 2448A7 as the PLM.  None of which are currently in stock at smarthome.  None of which have been officially "discontinued" either.  Supply chain issues have his smarthome hard, but they aren't out of business, nor have they removed these products from the sale pages.   To illustrate the difference... Insteon 2845 Hidden door sensor was officially discontinued-- it no longer shows on smarthomes pages as an Insteon product.   So while you may be certain that Insteon is a done deal... no one else is.   Smartlabs is owned these days my Richmond Capital Partners... they have cash to spend, and RCP has investment that they shouldn't want to lose... I seriously doubt inseon is dead, but if that's what you want to believe... Please move on to something bigger and better for you.

I expect I'll be able to keep my system running for many years to come.  I have some spares, but I expect product will be available again.

Oh by the way... PLMs are repairable in most cases, and there's a guy on ebay that will repair PLMs for a fee, or another guy on ebay that sells capacitor kits if you want to DIY the repair.

It does appear to me that Insteon is down and/or out, but I always defer to experts on the forum such as yourself. I'm asking for information here, not trying to supply it to others in this case, because, as you point out, I don't know much about it.

So, no, I don't want to move on to bigger and better things as you mention, just trying to get a handle on the current landscape and learn what I can do with my present system (which works pretty well, as I mentioned), or learn what options are available should I not be able to replace failing modules etc...

Could you be so kind as to point me to a resource link for running "ISY" on the Polisy, restoring a ISY backup to it, and then using my 2413s (or my spare which I re-capped some time ago) with it? 

[telljcl]

1 hour ago, dbwarner5 said:

Just to echo what @MrBill said above, in slightly more words as it IS confusing if you are just catching up to Polisy:

• ISY is a software package
• For the last ~12 years, it has run on a piece of hardware called the 994i
• The Polisy is a new much much faster (with more memory) piece of hardware.
• The ISY software can run on the Polisy hardware and hence we now have the Isy on Polisy, or IoP.
• Additionally, the Polisy can also run other software packages called Polyglots. 
• There are currently two different Polyglots that can run on the Polisy: PG2 and PG3
• PG2 is being phased out as PG3 continues to reach stability. Currently PG3 is in Alpha stage, hopefully moving to Beta soon. 
• These Polyglots run additional software packages called node servers.
• node servers allow other third party products, other than Insteon and zwave, to be incorporated into the ISY as "nodes", ie a new switch in your tree, which then allows for monitoring, control and programming of these third party devices via the ISY software.
• node servers are currently free on PG2.
• PG3 will allow developers the option to charge for their Node server work in the future.
• (Lastly, there is an additional Polyglot package called PG Cloud. This was an initial attempt for running Polyglot w/o a Polisy and the software resided on a UDI server and hence the "cloud". This has been discontinued recently due to unresolvable security issues.)

In summary, the Polisy hardware is a far superior hardware device compared to the 994i and with the inclusion of Polyglots, expands the utility of the ISY software dramatically with over 100 different node servers currently on PG2 and >60 on PG3.

However, please note, the 994i was and is a FANTASTIC piece of hardware that most users would agree, has been ROCK solid for so long and will continue to be for ISY only, but it does not have the ability to take advantage into the future of the third party home automation proliferation.

Hope that helps!

Yes indeed - it helps a lot! Thank you for taking the time to post it!

 

[telljcl]

53 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

It would also be good to note that IoP is not exactly the same as ISY on a 994i especially if you use Elk integration. I am a heavy user of Elk connected motion sensors and use my ISY as the bridge to trigger Alexa routines with them. I also use Elk voice responses to Insteon actions quite a lot. I probably can replicate all of this with an Elk Node server but I don't know that for sure or what kind of time investment would be required to reconfigure everything if it is possible.

I do have an ELK, and have various sensors etc... driving ISY programs, so this could certainly be an issue. I don't have ELK providing any voice feedback though, other than programs residing solely on ELK.

I've got a lot to learn here apparently, so I'll appeal again for any basic links on how to convert over to Polisy and away from the ISY.

My system consists mainly of Insteon, with Zwave where there was no alternative (locks, a few watt-counting modules), an ELK (alarm features plus controls some valves, garage doors, etc...) and Alexa integration via the ISY portal. So I'll need to figure out how to put all of this together on the Polisy some how.

Thanks for all the detailed responses provided here!

 

[brians]

@telljclThere is a pinned thread about migrating to Polisy here...

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, telljcl said:

I do have an ELK, and have various sensors etc... driving ISY programs, so this could certainly be an issue. I don't have ELK providing any voice feedback though, other than programs residing solely on ELK.

I've got a lot to learn here apparently, so I'll appeal again for any basic links on how to convert over to Polisy and away from the ISY.

My system consists mainly of Insteon, with Zwave where there was no alternative (locks, a few watt-counting modules), an ELK (alarm features plus controls some valves, garage doors, etc...) and Alexa integration via the ISY portal. So I'll need to figure out how to put all of this together on the Polisy some how.

Thanks for all the detailed responses provided here!

 

There's a whole subforum dedicated to polisy/IOP (it states polisy). Its easily found on the forum homepage. I would recommend reading all of the different subjects so that you know it's history and journey. 

The most recent topics will educate you on where it's at currently if you do not want to take the time to read everything

[telljcl]

46 minutes ago, brians said:

@telljclThere is a pinned thread about migrating to Polisy here...

 

 

Thank you - excellent!

 

[telljcl]

16 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There's a whole subforum dedicated to polisy/IOP (it states polisy). Its easily found on the forum homepage. I would recommend reading all of the different subjects so that you know it's history and journey. 

The most recent topics will educate you on where it's at currently if you do not want to take the time to read everything

Very good to know - thanks!

 

[Geddy]

2 hours ago, telljcl said:

Could you be so kind as to point me to a resource link for running "ISY" on the Polisy

There is also the documentation in the Wiki for Polisy User Guide - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Polisy:User_Guide

I think the post by @dbwarner5 helps fill in some tips/tricks found while doing the real life migration at that time. It was also started before the User Guide had been added to the Wiki. 

 

 

[telljcl]

6 minutes ago, Geddy said:

There is also the documentation in the Wiki for Polisy User Guide - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Polisy:User_Guide

I think the post by @dbwarner5 helps fill in some tips/tricks found while doing the real life migration at that time. It was also started before the User Guide had been added to the Wiki. 

 

 

Excellent - thanks.

It says in that guide to migrate with the ISY on 5.3.4 FW and I'm on 5.0.16C. Is this required? The 5.3.4 page makes it sound like updating may cause issues, so I'd like to change as little as possible and still get a solid migration.

My Polisy is also apparently very "old". There is no ISY on it, and none of the "upgrade" functionality works. Appears I'll have to SSH some code to it to make it into a "newer" Polisy.

The post by @dbwarner5 shows appears to show a 1.21 version file in the SSH instructions - is this still the one to use at this point?

Thanks

 

[lilyoyo1]

15 minutes ago, telljcl said:

Excellent - thanks.

It says in that guide to migrate with the ISY on 5.3.4 FW and I'm on 5.0.16C. Is this required? The 5.3.4 page makes it sound like updating may cause issues, so I'd like to change as little as possible and still get a solid migration.

My Polisy is also apparently very "old". There is no ISY on it, and none of the "upgrade" functionality works. Appears I'll have to SSH some code to it to make it into a "newer" Polisy.

The post by @dbwarner5 shows appears to show a 1.21 version file in the SSH instructions - is this still the one to use at this point?

Thanks

 

When you upgrade your polisy, it'll  update to the latest releases. Update polisy first via ash, and then restore your backup.

If you're not comfortable taking chances, you're better off waiting until they are out of this phase and things progress to the next level. While myself and many others are using polisy successfully, there are still issues that can impact those who are less aggressive in running the latest and greatest

[Geddy]

6 minutes ago, telljcl said:

to migrate with the ISY on 5.3.4 FW and I'm on 5.0.16C. Is this required?

I do not know. Perhaps @Michel Kohanim can chime in to confirm. Otherwise, email support@universal-devices.com and ask about upgrading from 5.0.16.C. Support will get back to you fairly quick during the week.

Do you have (and use) Z-wave and have the z-wave 300 series controller?  If you don't use z-wave or have a z-wave 500 series controller in the ISY994 you should upgrade to 5.3.4 first. But, if limited to 5.0.16C because of your z-wave controller you need to check with support if the migration path is acceptable to attempt. 

10 minutes ago, telljcl said:

appears to show a 1.21 version file in the SSH instructions

I'm not sure where you see this mentioned or what you're referring to. If there's a file version referenced in early January odds are it has been updated as PG3 has been updated several times since that post was made. I did a search in that post for 1.21 and didn't find any mention of it. Where did you see that?

11 minutes ago, telljcl said:

My Polisy is also apparently very "old"

How do you figure that? Follow the steps in this part of the Wiki - https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Polisy:User_Guide#Polisy_OS_Versions_Below_13

What version do you have when you run the "sudo uname -a" command?

I just checked my system and have:

Follow the steps in the Wiki to upgrade OS to 13. From there upgrades can be done using the multi function button on the front of the Polisy.

 

[telljcl]

10 minutes ago, Geddy said:

I do not know. Perhaps @Michel Kohanim can chime in to confirm. Otherwise, email support@universal-devices.com and ask about upgrading from 5.0.16.C. Support will get back to you fairly quick during the week.

Do you have (and use) Z-wave and have the z-wave 300 series controller?  If you don't use z-wave or have a z-wave 500 series controller in the ISY994 you should upgrade to 5.3.4 first. But, if limited to 5.0.16C because of your z-wave controller you need to check with support if the migration path is acceptable to attempt. 

I'm not sure where you see this mentioned or what you're referring to. If there's a file version referenced in early January odds are it has been updated as PG3 has been updated several times since that post was made. I did a search in that post for 1.21 and didn't find any mention of it. Where did you see that?

 

 

I upgraded to the 500 Zwave board when it came out.

The SSH and "1.21" etc... is mentioned in this thread about how to SSH over to the Polisy (SSH is not something I've done before, but if I don't make a typo or reference an old version looks simple enough if his instructions are still valid...)

I'm not sure the link below is going to the correct post, but the germane text is:

At this point you are ready to start updating your Polisy. Copy and past the first line below, then when that has completed, copy and paste the second line and then allow 10minutes for your Polisy to completely update and reboot.

curl -s https://pkg.isy.io/script/update121.sh | sudo bash
sudo shutdown -r now 

Once it has fully rebooted, you will need to open a new SSH Command prompt. Follow the same procedure as list above, however this time you won't be prompted to accept the key. This is normal, that only happens the first time you SSH to a new device.

Now that you are connected to the Polisy once again via SSH, copy and paste the following one line at a time again.

cat /usr/local/etc/udx.d/static/update13.sh | sudo bash
sudo shutdown -r now

You will once again have to wait while the Polisy updates and reboots. Once this update has been completed  you should be able to simply use the Polisy web interface to update.

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, telljcl said:

I upgraded to the 500 Zwave board when it came out.

The SSH and "1.21" etc... is mentioned in this thread about how to SSH over to the Polisy (SSH is not something I've done before, but if I don't make a typo or reference an old version looks simple enough if his instructions are still valid...)

I'm not sure the link below is going to the correct post, but the germane text is:

At this point you are ready to start updating your Polisy. Copy and past the first line below, then when that has completed, copy and paste the second line and then allow 10minutes for your Polisy to completely update and reboot.

curl -s https://pkg.isy.io/script/update121.sh | sudo bash
sudo shutdown -r now 

Once it has fully rebooted, you will need to open a new SSH Command prompt. Follow the same procedure as list above, however this time you won't be prompted to accept the key. This is normal, that only happens the first time you SSH to a new device.

Now that you are connected to the Polisy once again via SSH, copy and paste the following one line at a time again.

cat /usr/local/etc/udx.d/static/update13.sh | sudo bash
sudo shutdown -r now

You will once again have to wait while the Polisy updates and reboots. Once this update has been completed  you should be able to simply use the Polisy web interface to update.

 

 

You're posting all over the place which will only cause confusion for yourself and others. Take the time to read all of the posts since all of your questions and steps are highly detailed in the first few forum posts. If you follow the instructions in all of the posts that were linked to you throughout your posts, you'll find it's actually pretty easy to setup and get going. @asbrilwill lie to you and tell you how non technical he is... Yet he's been able to follow these same instructions (as most of us) to get up and running. 

If it's too much at this time, my recommendation would be to wait until you have had time to research the information in front of you and are comfortable with the process and potential issues that can arise. As great as everything is for most of us, there's still work to be done. 

[Geddy]

1 hour ago, telljcl said:

I upgraded to the 500 Zwave board when it came out.

Then you should be upgraded to 5.4.3 on your 994. If you're on 5.0.16C you're on an old firmware that has many updates and upgrades since. That's step #1.

Follow the steps outlined in the release post - https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/33287-534-update-for-isy994-july-30-2021/

Then, as @lilyoyo1 suggests, read and understand the process. Read the wiki. It has commands you posted above. So, all the information is there to be consumed. You've just got to take the time to read it and understand what the steps do before you get too far down a path. Don't just read a line and do it. Know your plan for upgrading. Just in case you get interrupted in the middle of a step.

The key is...always allow plenty of time to pass before proceeding. Sometimes the update can take a while to download and install. So don't expect each step to take 30 seconds and try to perform the next before the system is ready to proceed. There was a report that one of the updates took ~10 minutes before the Polisy was ready to move ahead. I forget when/what that was, but just be prepared to wait until you hear beeps and have steady lights on the Polisy. 

Post (in one place) when you have more questions. Bouncing back and forth aren't doing you any favors. 

[telljcl]

5 minutes ago, Geddy said:

Then you should be upgraded to 5.4.3 on your 994. If you're on 5.0.16C you're on an old firmware that has many updates and upgrades since. That's step #1.

Follow the steps outlined in the release post - https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/33287-534-update-for-isy994-july-30-2021/

Then, as @lilyoyo1 suggests, read and understand the process. Read the wiki. It has commands you posted above. So, all the information is there to be consumed. You've just got to take the time to read it and understand what the steps do before you get too far down a path. Don't just read a line and do it. Know your plan for upgrading. Just in case you get interrupted in the middle of a step.

The key is...always allow plenty of time to pass before proceeding. Sometimes the update can take a while to download and install. So don't expect each step to take 30 seconds and try to perform the next before the system is ready to proceed. There was a report that one of the updates took ~10 minutes before the Polisy was ready to move ahead. I forget when/what that was, but just be prepared to wait until you hear beeps and have steady lights on the Polisy. 

Post (in one place) when you have more questions. Bouncing back and forth aren't doing you any favors. 

Appreciate the confirmation and tips on waiting etc...

One thing I know from owning an ISY for 12+ years I think is that the procedures to do things change along the way. So yes - I need to read through all those threads to make sure I don't miss something, and that I'm following the procedure for my FW etc...

BTW, I updated the 994i to 5.4.3 w/out any apparent issues. Step one, anyway.

Thanks