Upgrade to Polisy or ISY ZW?

[ErikN]

Hi folks. I have been watching with interest the developments around Polisy for the last few years. At first I didn't quite understand it but I think I do now but hoping for some clarification and advice. I have a basic ISY994 that has served we well for some time. Almost all INSTEON devices plus a couple very old X10. It is interfaced with an iPhone based remote control system (roomieremote.com) and the two generally work well together. However, with the decline in availability and range of INSTEON devices available, I am looking at expanding into using Z-Wave+ (and maybe more?).

This leads me to consider, whether I should upgrade / replace the ISY994 with an ISY994i ZW PRO to provide more capacity and Z-Wave capability, or for a few (well a little more than a few) dollars more make the bigger jump to Polisys with the ZW dongle, which it sounds like is evolving quickly and of course there's always some bugs to but mostly ready for mainstream use now.

Just to clarify, in addition to running on a much more powerful UNIX based platform and the capability to add node interfaces to a virtually limitless array of other devices, it is my understanding that Polisys also hosts essentially the same event/device/node-based programmable application with essentially the same interface that runs on the ISY994, and I can basically import a backup of devices, scenes, scripts, network resources, etc. from my existing ISY (or I can re-develop them manually). So I can basically start by replacing my existing ISY994 and port over pretty much everything as is, and then from there expand and start looking at ways to use the new Polisys functionality.

Is my understanding correct?

Is there anything critical on the ISY that won't port over or won't work at all in this ISY on Polisys environment?

The existing ISY994 API / REST interface that my remote control software uses to collect the manifest of devices and to send commands, control devices, run scripts, and receive device status updates, does that still work the same and use the same command string formats?

Would you recommend making the jump to Polisys +ZW now, or perhaps just getting the ISY994i ZW+ PRO for now, and consider Polisys once it settles in even further?  I am an old-school software developer but have been out of that business for many years and don't have time to join the effort to develop additional node interfaces etc. so I would be paying the full price for Polisys so there is a cost differential between them.

Any clarifications or advice would be much appreciated.

Erik

[DennisC]

I have made the change to Polisy at two locations for both Insteon and Zwave. The Insteon backup and restore works well, although manual intervention is required. Zwave backup and restore is not yet available. If you are going to make the switch I suggest you copy to clip board all programs and paste in text document for reference. Also take screenshots of all Network Resources.

There is nothing I was doing on ISY that I can't do on Polisy.

I believe there is currently a discount on Polisy because of PGC being off line. Check the PGC thread.

[MrBill]

14 hours ago, ErikN said:

This leads me to consider, whether I should upgrade / replace the ISY994 with an ISY994i ZW PRO to provide more capacity and Z-Wave capability, or for a few (well a little more than a few) dollars more make the bigger jump to Polisys with the ZW dongle, which it sounds like is evolving quickly and of course there's always some bugs to but mostly ready for mainstream use now.

While the ISY994 will be around for a long time, if you're upgrading at this point I would move straight to Polisy.

incidentally, you don't need to replace the ISY994 to get a ISY994i ZW PRO... just add the z-wave board and purchase the pro upgrade.... but I wouldn't spend my money that way either.... make the jump.

Edited March 19, 2022 by MrBill

[Bumbershoot]

I don't know about the roomieremote, but it appears to be an IP based control system, so it should work just the same with a Polisy.  Otherwise, if you're all Insteon/X10, you should purchase a Polisy and consider a migration plan.  I doubt there'll be much development other than bug fixes for the ISY994i ZW Pro, as Polisy is the UDI platform going forward, and it's a much more capable device than the ISY994i.

You could simply restore of a backup of your ISY994 on the Polisy and you'd be up and running.  Z-Wave could come in time when you're ready to add devices (some Z-Wave dongles currently in the market are requiring upgrades to get past some issues, so it might be a good idea to wait a bit on that if you don't have an immediate need for it).

If you're going to use the same serial PLM that your ISY994i uses, then I believe there's an issue with the cable that the ISY994i uses (you'll need to use the cable that came in the packaging).  If you have a USB PLM, then no issues at all.

Just keep in mind that IoP is under heavy development at the moment.

 

[brians]

If you currently have Insteon and plan on going to Z-Wave then I would go for the Polisy. If you do not have your serial cable for the PLM it is easy to make one. Since you are running only Insteon, the transition will be easy.

For your roomiermote it should work but since Polisy uses port 8080 for its web interface, you would probably have to add a :8080 to the end of your IP address in the REST commands.

The ISY994i only supports Z-Wave 500 series. The newest Z-Wave standard is 700 series which the Polisy supports via S2 dongle. Looking back at history, people with older 300 series boards on ISY could not upgrade to newer versions of firmware because support was dropped and their Z-Wave stop working. I can see the same thing happening with ISY994i and 500 series boards being left behind. I do believe that all future Z-Wave development at UD is going to be with Polisy only, and we will see no new features on the older ISY994i with 500 series boards.

With Polisy, the Z-Wave is theoretically upgradable in the future so if a new Z-Wave series comes out (eg. 900?!?) you could just insert a new dongle. If you decide to leave Insteon and Polisy for something else in the future, you still have a useable dongle for something else like Home Assistant.

Regarding polyglot node servers, with PG2 being deprecated, future Polyglots will need PG3 which only runs on a Polisy (you cannot install PG3 yourself on your own hardware like you could before with PG2). Right now PG2 are still working but the focus is on PG3. Note that Polisy currently runs both PG2 (for legacy) and PG3 servers so you would have access to everything.

[lilyoyo1]

11 minutes ago, brians said:

If you currently have Insteon and plan on going to Z-Wave then I would go for the Polisy. If you do not have your serial cable for the PLM it is easy to make one. Since you are running only Insteon, the transition will be easy.

For your roomiermote it should work but since Polisy uses port 8080 for its web interface, you would probably have to add a :8080 to the end of your IP address in the REST commands.

The ISY994i only supports Z-Wave 500 series. The newest Z-Wave standard is 700 series which the Polisy supports via S2 dongle. Looking back at history, people with older 300 series boards on ISY could not upgrade to newer versions of firmware because support was dropped and their Z-Wave stop working. I can see the same thing happening with ISY994i and 500 series boards being left behind. I do believe that all future Z-Wave development at UD is going to be with Polisy only, and we will see no new features on the older ISY994i with 500 series boards.

With Polisy, the Z-Wave is theoretically upgradable in the future so if a new Z-Wave series comes out (eg. 900?!?) you could just insert a new dongle. If you decide to leave Insteon and Polisy for something else in the future, you still have a useable dongle for something else like Home Assistant.

Regarding polyglot node servers, with PG2 being deprecated, future Polyglots will need PG3 which only runs on a Polisy (you cannot install PG3 yourself on your own hardware like you could before with PG2). Right now PG2 are still working but the focus is on PG3. Note that Polisy currently runs both PG2 (for legacy) and PG3 servers so you would have access to everything.

Just to add addition information/confirmation- Michel has stated the isy994 will not be receiving any more updates to it's zwave board. 500 series is as high as it'll go. 800 series was just released by the alliance but it'll probably be 3-5 years before we see devices since 700 is just started to become readily available.aybe some of the holdouts will release 800 series but i doubt it.

I do see the 994 receiving firmware updates for the foreseeable future however since they plan on selling it for a while. At the pace UDI does things, i can see this lasting the next few years. I know they mentioned working on moving away from Java. I'd be surprised if the 994 received that as it would be more expedient and less costly to focus on the future vs the past.

All this is my assumption and thoughts except for the 500 board. I hope no one takes it as fact since I do not know myself

Edited March 19, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[ErikN]

Thank you everyone this has been very helpful.

Erik

[Buzzhazz]

Rather than create a new and somewhat similar thread, please permit me to tag on here.

I've previously been an ISY99/994 user for many years, but I was never a power user.  I viewed the ISY worth the price just for Insteon device/scene management and to run what many here would consider to be a few pretty straightforward programs.

Early last summer, we moved, and I left the ISY 994 with the new owners.  With the common history of failure of the PLM serial modem and it's complete lack of availability, I decided to start fresh in the new home with Home Assistant.  At that time, it was not clear how soon Polisy  might become the new home for ISY.

I purchased a Home Assistant Blue when it became available and set it aside.  Now, nine months later, I'm in the new house and ready to start setting things up.  I stumble back here to find the significant advances that have taken place with Policy to include IoP, and I am thinking I jumped the gum with the Home Assistant Blue.  Home Assistant has many more integrations than Polisy has node servers, but Insteon sure seems infinitely easier to manage with IoP.

I have the advantage now of starting from scratch! My new home will incorporate Insteon primarily for lighting/scene control and I do have three Schlage Z-wave locks I'd like to incorporate. There are a lot of smart devices within the home (Ring, Nest E thermostats, smart TVs, AV equipment and even SolarEdge), but like I said, I've never been a power user, and I'm not a fan of automation for automation's sake, so I'm not sure how fancy I'll get, but I do like to tinker, and I do intend to expand the Z-wave network where it makes sense to do so.

Enough background.  Just a few questions, some of which I think I know the answer to.
 

• The Polisy Pro is only slightly more expensive ($30) than the base unit, and for that reason alone, I'm leaning toward it.  But I have data ports throughout the house and will connect Polisy with ethernet.  I know Pro has BT capability, but can anyone provide a real life or even possible future example of how one might incorporate BT capability into anything? 
• I am starting from scratch so I'll need a new PLM.  I plan to use the USB PLM though I see Polisy supports several PLM models.  Any reason NOT to go with the USB PLM?
• And along that same line, I see the 2413u is sold out at SmartHome and other places I've looked.  Any insight on how long they will remain out of stock.  The PLMs sure seem to be the Achilles' heel of any Insteon control system, ISY 994, Polisy, HA or otherwise.
• Along with the Home Assistant Blue, I purchased an Aeotec Z-Stick 7 Plus.  The Zooz Z-7 add on to Polisy is dirt cheap, but I do like the smaller footprint of the Aeotec.   Is anyone using the Aeotec, and if so, how is it working for you?

Thanks in advance.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Buzzhazz

[lilyoyo1]

18 minutes ago, Buzzhazz said:

Rather than create a new and somewhat similar thread, please permit me to tag on here.

I've previously been an ISY99/994 user for many years, but I was never a power user.  I viewed the ISY worth the price just for Insteon device/scene management and to run what many here would consider to be a few pretty straightforward programs.

Early last summer, we moved, and I left the ISY 994 with the new owners.  With the common history of failure of the PLM serial modem and it's complete lack of availability, I decided to start fresh in the new home with Home Assistant.  At that time, it was not clear how soon Polisy  might become the new home for ISY.

I purchased a Home Assistant Blue when it became available and set it aside.  Now, nine months later, I'm in the new house and ready to start setting things up.  I stumble back here to find the significant advances that have taken place with Policy to include IoP, and I am thinking I jumped the gum with the Home Assistant Blue.  Home Assistant has many more integrations than Polisy has node servers, but Insteon sure seems infinitely easier to manage with IoP.

I have the advantage now of starting from scratch! My new home will incorporate Insteon primarily for lighting/scene control and I do have three Schlage Z-wave locks I'd like to incorporate. There are a lot of smart devices within the home (Ring, Nest E thermostats, smart TVs, AV equipment and even SolarEdge), but like I said, I've never been a power user, and I'm not a fan of automation for automation's sake, so I'm not sure how fancy I'll get, but I do like to tinker, and I do intend to expand the Z-wave network where it makes sense to do so.

Enough background.  Just a few questions, some of which I think I know the answer to.
 

• The Polisy Pro is only slightly more expensive ($30) than the base unit, and for that reason alone, I'm leaning toward it.  But I have data ports throughout the house and will connect Polisy with ethernet.  I know Pro has BT capability, but can anyone provide a real life or even possible future example of how one might incorporate BT capability into anything? 
• I am starting from scratch so I'll need a new PLM.  I plan to use the USB PLM though I see Polisy supports several PLM models.  Any reason NOT to go with the USB PLM?
• And along that same line, I see the 2413u is sold out at SmartHome and other places I've looked.  Any insight on how long they will remain out of stock.  The PLMs sure seem to be the Achilles' heel of any Insteon control system, ISY 994, Polisy, HA or otherwise.
• Along with the Home Assistant Blue, I purchased an Aeotec Z-Stick 7 Plus.  The Zooz Z-7 add on to Polisy is dirt cheap, but I do like the smaller footprint of the Aeotec.   Is anyone using the Aeotec, and if so, how is it working for you?

Thanks in advance.

Personally i don't think BT or wifi is needed for Polisy but to each their own. 

I tried the insteon USB stick in my test polisy and it sucked. They've had updates to polisy since then so it may be better but the experience was bad enough that I've never went back to test again.

For some details about my experience, I used my polisy with the USB stick and 2413s. Same location with the same devices. 2413s had zero hiccups. Instantaneous along with 100% communication rate. The USB was noticeably slower to/from polisy. Most times, I'd have to hit a button or switch a couple of times before polisy would see the event. I'd get a red blinking light from failed communication when this happened which let me know the signal wasn't getting through. Your experience could be different however. Like i said, I haven't used it since the latest updates so things may be better. 

I haven't heard anyonensay they use aeotech's stick. Since you already have it, I'd say try it. If it works great, if it doesn't, you know where you can get another one at least. 

[brians]

@BuzzhazzI am curioius how you are going to purchase Insteon for new home when there are no Insteon products available.

If Insteon was still available and 100% certain of its fate, yes I would definitely get a Polisy and use IoP. For switches and lighting, Insteon and IoP/ISY is superior to Z-Wave in setup and manageability. Supplement Insteon network with Z-Wave devices that are not available with Insteon (which is what I do - I run 2413S, have two brand new 2413U as backup, and an Insteon stick also as backup so I am good regarding failing PLM)

If you cannot get Insteon, as far as alternatives to Insteon, Z-Wave seems to be the only other DIY product that one could use in a system with a  local hub/controller (not talking about cloud stuff like Google, Amazon, Homekit, "Matter", or the cheap switches/bulbs purchase from Costco etc.). 

 

[Buzzhazz]

59 minutes ago, brians said:

@BuzzhazzI am curioius how you are going to purchase Insteon for new home when there are no Insteon products available.

 

 

Hmmm.  Good point.  I have a stash of products from a couple of previous sales that I brought with me.  Hadn't realized that the Insteon shortage ran way beyond the PLMs.  Perhaps it's time to just wait and see what happens when and if this chip shortage is over (assuming that's the cause of the shortage).

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Buzzhazz

[JTsao]

8 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I tried the insteon USB stick in my test polisy and it sucked. They've had updates to polisy since then so it may be better but the experience was bad enough that I've never went back to test again.

I would agree that the USB stick is not as good as a PLM, but I have been staying with it since my switch to IoP and overall it seems OK - one thing that happened to me, that may or may not apply to others switching to IoP and trying the stick is that it seemed like the device links were not all what they should have been for a lot of Insteon devices after the IoP change and the restore PLM operation - After checking a lot of device links vs the ISY links and doing a lot of "restore device" operations, things improved (a time consuming task)

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, JTsao said:

I would agree that the USB stick is not as good as a PLM, but I have been staying with it since my switch to IoP and overall it seems OK - one thing that happened to me, that may or may not apply to others switching to IoP and trying the stick is that it seemed like the device links were not all what they should have been for a lot of Insteon devices after the IoP change and the restore PLM operation - After checking a lot of device links vs the ISY links and doing a lot of "restore device" operations, things improved (a time consuming task)

I'm glad it's working for you. Mine was a clean install not ported over. Subsequent restore devices did not change anything. The software is in alpha so I'm certain things will get better which is why I added I haven't tested with the latest updates as things could've changed. 

I tried 2 different USB sticks just in case 1 was bad and continued to have the same issues. Even adding new devices was problematic as I would have to attempt it multiple times to get some devices added. The amount of restores that was needed and lack of confidence in it working is why I abandoned the USB for now. I'll end up testing it again in the future but for now I'm focused on a setup that works for Polisy testing