Matter... And why do we care?

[Bumbershoot]

9 hours ago, ryarber said:

So, we should be able to control devices across platforms through ISY but this might not make homebridge obsolete… That’s my real question.


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It still seems fairly speculative as to how this will all knit together, but I would imagine that if your HomeKit devices are upgraded to support Matter/Thread, then all you would need is Thread boarder router that's visible to those devices, and they will be able to interact with each other directly (or with another Matter controller that's NOT an ISY).  If not, then you'd likely still need the HomeBridge/ISY combination.

I'm assuming that the Matter board in the Polisy/eisy will make the ISY a Matter controller, so all the complicated logic can still reside there.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/19/23269460/thread-1-3-0-matter-border-routers-homepod-mini-echo-nest

[lilyoyo1]

If everyone does things the way they say matter should work then we'll have an integrated system with compatible devices. Until then- no one will know until it's released. Personally, I don't see much changing from what we have now in regards to voice assistants except that they all would be able to keep track of what's happening regardless of how something was operated

[upstatemike]

In some respects I care less about Matter than I do about Thread. Matter does not solve any problems that I am currently having but if Thread turns out to be an underlying protocol that fixes all the shortcomings in Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, and Zigbee while providing a larger universe of devices than is available from Lutron or LoRa then that could make life better.

Edited September 20, 2022 by upstatemike
spelling

[ryarber]

In some respects I care less about Matter than I do about Thread. Matter does not solve any problems that I am currently having but if Thread turns out to be an underlying protocol that fixes all the shortcomings in Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, and Zigbee while providing a larger universe of devices than is available from Lutron or LoRa then that could make life better.

I could care less about voice control. I’d rather pull up my phone and tap to turn off a light or close a garage door. The home app is handy and well integrated into iOS. I’d love to ditch homebridge for something better because there is a certain amount of maintenance to it that I’d rather not have.


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[asbril]

58 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

If everyone does things the way they say matter should work then we'll have an integrated system with compatible devices. Until then- no one will know until it's released. Personally, I don't see much changing from what we have now in regards to voice assistants except that they all would be able to keep track of what's happening regardless of how something was operated

Am I correct in that eisy and/or the new Z-Matter board will work as a border router, and we will not need a separate border router ?

[lilyoyo1]

28 minutes ago, asbril said:

Am I correct in that eisy and/or the new Z-Matter board will work as a border router, and we will not need a separate border router ?

We won't know until more details come out. It depends on how/what UDI implements. There's no reason it can't be since all that is required is a hardwired connection (power) and an internet connection 

Edited September 20, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[upstatemike]

15 minutes ago, ryarber said:

I could care less about voice control. I’d rather pull up my phone and tap to turn off a light or close a garage door. The home app is handy and well integrated into iOS. I’d love to ditch homebridge for something better because there is a certain amount of maintenance to it that I’d rather not have.


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While I respect your preference I am just the opposite. I absolutely HATE lugging a phone around when I am at home. I cannot stand the time it takes to fish it out, fire it up, get to the correct screen, and actually do something with it.

By contrast I have been using Alexa since it was introduced and while I was skeptical at first about learning commands and waiting for a cloud based response, I have to say the reliability, accuracy, and natural speech (no robotic voices or unnatural command structures) have won me over. I now speak to my 25+ Echos throughout the day and rely on them to control most things.

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

While I respect your preference I am just the opposite. I absolutely HATE lugging a phone around when I am at home. I cannot stand the time it takes to fish it out, fire it up, get to the correct screen, and actually do something with it.

By contrast I have been using Alexa since it was introduced and while I was skeptical at first about learning commands and waiting for a cloud based response, I have to say the reliability, accuracy, and natural speech (no robotic voices or unnatural command structures) have won me over. I now speak to my 25+ Echos throughout the day and rely on them to control most things.

I couldn't agree more. That's why I don't use apps now to control my devices

[lilyoyo1]

33 minutes ago, ryarber said:

I could care less about voice control. I’d rather pull up my phone and tap to turn off a light or close a garage door. The home app is handy and well integrated into iOS. I’d love to ditch homebridge for something better because there is a certain amount of maintenance to it that I’d rather not have.


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There's a reason why the biggest investors into matter are also big on voice assistants. While I'm sure you could still open up an app, I'm quite sure they'd prefer people who would rather integrate with their own voice assistants. 

[larryllix]

..and them finding the right app amongst hundreds of apps on a dozen pages..

When would I ever charge the phone? I avoid all apps as much as possible
A really remarkable system already exists for small screens using a standard browser that has existed for decades.

How many more techniques do we need?

We have no fingerprints around wall plates anymore.

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[ryarber]

There's a reason why the biggest investors into matter are also big on voice assistants. While I'm sure you could still open up an app, I'm quite sure they'd prefer people who would rather integrate with their own voice assistants. 

Using homebridge, all my devices, whether nest, Insteon, cameras from Arlo, door locks, elk alarm, etc are all visible in the home app and I have basic functions available there. It gives me an instant snapshot of the state of all devices in the home. You can’t get that from a voice assistant. I can activate scenes, change alarm state, open or close a garage, change thermostat, etc. This all from the home app. I could easily get Siri to do this by voice control, but it’s just something I don’t prefer to do. You can also put any of those devices in a dashboard on iPhone where you don’t even have to open an app. More device functions are available inside their own apps, but those other functions are rarely needed.

This is the kind of stuff matter will provide, and it’s what we should expect from matter at the beginning.


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[Michel Kohanim]

15 hours ago, bpwwer said:

I don't think that question can be answered yet.  As far as I know, no one at UDI has started working on a Matter implementation. I haven't seen the board technical specifications yet, but I don't think the current board firmware even supports Matter yet. 

Current firmware is silab's implementation of Zigbee/Thread which is upgraded to Matter. Their ETA is 1Q 2023.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

15 hours ago, bpwwer said:

I don't believe the board manufacture has release the technical documentation for their Matter support yet.  So until we know what the hardware can actually do W.R.T. Matter support, there won't be any plans on how that support will be implemented in the UDI software stack.

Not true. How it's implemented in UD depends on resources but, most probably, it'll be like Z-Wave due to specificities and general nature. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[Michel Kohanim]

48 minutes ago, asbril said:

Am I correct in that eisy and/or the new Z-Matter board will work as a border router, and we will not need a separate border router ?

Yes.

With regard to how all this fits together, it all depends on the use cases:

1. Simple use cases with HomeBridge and Voice assistants, there's no need for UD
2. Unless the whole world moves to Matter, then integration with other products such as Z-Wave, etc. and/or automation, you need something like polisy/eisy

I am not discounting #1. At the same time, I have lived through 10s of standards that were going to rule the world. And, yet, here we are again.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

[upstatemike]

Let's not forget there is more to the story than just connectivity. From a connectivity perspective I could do more with Alexa than I do today but I am prevented by the lack of advanced logic options. You simply can't do everything that is needed with a simplistic trigger/condition/action model. You need OR logic in your triggers. You need nested logic. You need counters and flags and virtual devices.

Making Voice Assistants into edge routers is not going to eliminate the need for integration controllers like polisy/eisy.

[lilyoyo1]

13 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Let's not forget there is more to the story than just connectivity. From a connectivity perspective I could do more with Alexa than I do today but I am prevented by the lack of advanced logic options. You simply can't do everything that is needed with a simplistic trigger/condition/action model. You need OR logic in your triggers. You need nested logic. You need counters and flags and virtual devices.

Making Voice Assistants into edge routers is not going to eliminate the need for integration controllers like polisy/eisy.

Most people don't need that stuff. In out world we do but they aren't doing this for us

[upstatemike]

40 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Most people don't need that stuff. In out world we do but they aren't doing this for us

Most people don't need it initially when they first start using Home Automation. They appreciate the "starter kit" conveniently available at their local Home Depot, Target, or Wal-Mart. They are confident in their purchase decision because the product description promises a wide variety of expansion options so your system will grow with you. 

But soon the new user is comfortable with the technology and is ready to trade simplicity for some added features... and this is where the disappointment starts. The limitations of the "simple" interface becomes a problem when they want to do something more and find the logic won't support it. They want to expand their system only to find the big stores never get around to stocking those promised expansion items and there are only ever "starter kits" on the shelves. This is when buyers remorse sets in and they desperately come here looking for a way to salvage their investment and find a path to accomplish what they were promised when they originally committed to their particular protocol/brand/product. 

Even Apple Homekit users who have committed to the walled garden of the Appleverse eventually find it is not enough and seek salvation through Homebridge. It will be the same for those starting with Voice Assistant based systems. Eventually they will want more and will need something like eisy to move forward.

Edited September 20, 2022 by upstatemike

[ryarber]

Some of you sound like it’s an either/or scenario. There are advantages to having both matter/homebridge type solutions as well as a smart integration solution like UD. It’s time to stop looking down our noses at people who merely want to turn on their hue bulb with an app and realize they just don’t want more (yet) that they can get with automation. They just want a little control, which is fine. I don’t like voice control, some of you do, which is also fine. I can fire up my phone and with 3 or 4 taps, I can turn on my alarm system from anywhere in the world. I can let my house cleaner in. I can set up any automation you can dream up to happen automatically. I can go to one place on my phone and tell if my wife is out of bed yet. Or see if I have a package at the door. Or have basic control of any connected device in the house (including Insteon). If I wanted, I could have Siri control any of those devices. 
 

If matter is going to deliver on promises or not, I love the way things are right now. Hopefully matter will simplify some things going forward so that I don’t have to also run a raspberry pi/homebridge in addition to my Polisy. 

[lilyoyo1]

33 minutes ago, ryarber said:

Using homebridge, all my devices, whether nest, Insteon, cameras from Arlo, door locks, elk alarm, etc are all visible in the home app and I have basic functions available there. It gives me an instant snapshot of the state of all devices in the home. You can’t get that from a voice assistant. I can activate scenes, change alarm state, open or close a garage, change thermostat, etc. This all from the home app. I could easily get Siri to do this by voice control, but it’s just something I don’t prefer to do. You can also put any of those devices in a dashboard on iPhone where you don’t even have to open an app. More device functions are available inside their own apps, but those other functions are rarely needed.

This is the kind of stuff matter will provide, and it’s what we should expect from matter at the beginning.


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I'm glad it works for you but for most it doesn't. Just listening to you explain things, it sounds convoluted. Most people will want to avoid that. To each their own though.

Personally I want a responsive home where things happen automatically. The problem with checking an app for status is that you have to remember to check. For example, what happens when you leave the garage door open? When will you think about it and check your app? You can be 20 miles away by the time that happens. What happens if your in a poor reception area? So much for checking anything. What if you're driving and need to check something? It's much easier to simply say hey Google close the garage door etc. than it is to pull your phone out while driving, open it up, find the widget, or app, verify and close it (a responsive home negated the need for both situations though).

Homebridge is irrelevant to the makers of Matter. They aren't designing Matter around that. They are doing it for voice assistants (and sell more products/services). It's great that homebridge works for you and the people behind it will probably update it to work with Matter certified controllers. 

Every mfg. will still be in charge of their own interface in regards to the controlling system. If you're an Alexa user, then Amazon would be the app. If it's Google or apple, then it would be their system. 

The big 3 got behind matter to sell more devices. They aren't doing this out of the kindness of their heart. Most people use stuff for on/off control. They don't necessarily care about status, complex routines, etc. Those that want/need more will do so. 

 

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Most people don't need it initially when they first start using Home Automation. They appreciate the "starter kit" conveniently available at their local Home Depot, Target, or Wal-Mart. They are confident in their purchase decision because the product description promises a wide variety of expansion options so your system will grow with you. 

But soon the new user is comfortable with the technology and is ready to trade simplicity for some added features... and this is where the disappointment starts. The limitations of the "simple" interface becomes a problem when they want to do something more and find the logic won't support it. They want to expand their system only to find the big stores never get around to stocking those promised expansion items and there are only ever "starter kits" on the shelves. This is when buyers remorse sets in and they desperately come here looking for a way to salvage their investment and find a path to accomplish what they were promised when they originally committed to their particular protocol/brand/product. 

Even Apple Homekit users who have committed to the walled garden of the Appleverse eventually find it is not enough and seek salvation through Homebridge. It will be the same for those starting with Voice Assistant based systems. Eventually they will want more and will need something like eisy to move forward.

You are correct. However, most do not want to put the time, effort and cost into things to make that happen. Either way, once they get to that point, they are no longer Matter's market 

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, ryarber said:

Some of you sound like it’s an either/or scenario. There are advantages to having both matter/homebridge type solutions as well as a smart integration solution like UD. It’s time to stop looking down our noses at people who merely want to turn on their hue bulb with an app and realize they just don’t want more (yet) that they can get with automation. They just want a little control, which is fine. I don’t like voice control, some of you do, which is also fine. I can fire up my phone and with 3 or 4 taps, I can turn on my alarm system from anywhere in the world. I can let my house cleaner in. I can set up any automation you can dream up to happen automatically. I can go to one place on my phone and tell if my wife is out of bed yet. Or see if I have a package at the door. Or have basic control of any connected device in the house (including Insteon). If I wanted, I could have Siri control any of those devices. 
 

If matter is going to deliver on promises or not, I love the way things are right now. Hopefully matter will simplify some things going forward so that I don’t have to also run a raspberry pi/homebridge in addition to my Polisy. 

I don't think either one of us were saying it's an either/or situation. We both said to each their own. 

I can't speak for upstatemike, but the information I share is simply sharing my experiences the way you are sharing yours. This is how we all learn and grow.

If no one ever talked about new ways and how they do things differently, nothing different would happen. No one is knocking you. Someone else could be reading this and sees what others are doing which enables them to expand what their system does (picked up a potential client this weekend because of it)

I talk about what Matter is designed for because this is my industry. I get the pleasure of talking to people every week about what can be done in their homes. The things Ive shared are based on my conversations with clients, potential clients, and curious questioners about what they want.

It's not me knocking you by sharing this information based on my experiences. These companies have all of our information. They study and dissect it in more ways than we can imagine to learn how to get more from us. The fact is, from talking to people, they know most do not want app control or complex logic. They want to buy something, put it in, and be done in a few clicks. Once done, they want to go to bed and turn off the lights. Your way, my way, Mike's way, (and anyone here). is far different than what most start out wanting to do. That's who Matter is after. We are not their customer base. 

A difference eofnopnion isn't a knock against anyone. It's a sharing of ideas for all. Listening to how you control your home is convoluted to me. Listening to how I set mine up would probably sound time consuming and convulated to you and not worth it. Neither way is worse. It's about what fits you and if you're happy with it 

[ryarber]

I'm glad it works for you but for most it doesn't. Just listening to you explain things, it sounds convoluted. Most people will want to avoid that. To each their own though.
Personally I want a responsive home where things happen automatically. The problem with checking an app for status is that you have to remember to check. For example, what happens when you leave the garage door open? When will you think about it and check your app? You can be 20 miles away by the time that happens. What happens if your in a poor reception area? So much for checking anything. What if you're driving and need to check something? It's much easier to simply say hey Google close the garage door etc. than it is to pull your phone out while driving, open it up, find the widget, or app, verify and close it (a responsive home negated the need for both situations though).
Homebridge is irrelevant to the makers of Matter. They aren't designing Matter around that. They are doing it for voice assistants (and sell more products/services). It's great that homebridge works for you and the people behind it will probably update it to work with Matter certified controllers. 
Every mfg. will still be in charge of their own interface in regards to the controlling system. If you're an Alexa user, then Amazon would be the app. If it's Google or apple, then it would be their system. 
The big 3 got behind matter to sell more devices. They aren't doing this out of the kindness of their heart. Most people use stuff for on/off control. They don't necessarily care about status, complex routines, etc. Those that want/need more will do so. 
 

My understanding of what matter will be is essentially a homebridge replacement. Now, homebridge is apple/HomeKit specific. But it should work similarly for smart things or google home stuff and Alexa as well. I’m in the apple universe, so I’m only familiar with homebridge.

It is going to be a bigger deal to smaller companies like zooz or Insteon than companies like apple/google/Amazon/Samsung.

The company that makes my garage door opener, tailwind, had to put a lot of development time into HomeKit compatibility. They had to do the same with smart things and other platforms. Because the market for these devices is people who simply want remote control of their garage doors. There are 3 things you can do with the device in HomeKit. Check status, open, and close. You could also do some automations if you wanted such as set up a geofence in apple’s home app and control the device automatically based on geofence. You could also set up a siri control easily as well. Now, if you go into the tailwind app, you have many more options for settings such as automatically close at a certain time, you can geofence within the app, you can set a delay for it to automatically close, you can push notifications to your phone, you can have it automatically close at night, you can give temporary access to the device, and many other things.

Matter is a way for people to get centralized BASIC control of any supported device. The extended functions most devices will have will only be available in their specific apps. The other big thing matter may deliver is simple setup via Bluetooth and QR code.

Apple/google/Samsung/Amazon will likely offer some automations on their platforms. HomeKit/apple already offer basic automations. But full featured device control is t going to happen at least in the early versions of matter.

It is very convoluted, as you’ve said. Hopefully, things will simplify going forward. That’s the whole point of matter. I’m not sure what will happen to homebridge going forward if matter is successful except for it to continue to support legacy devices.


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[asbril]

2 hours ago, upstatemike said:

While I respect your preference I am just the opposite. I absolutely HATE lugging a phone around when I am at home. I cannot stand the time it takes to fish it out, fire it up, get to the correct screen, and actually do something with it.

By contrast I have been using Alexa since it was introduced and while I was skeptical at first about learning commands and waiting for a cloud based response, I have to say the reliability, accuracy, and natural speech (no robotic voices or unnatural command structures) have won me over. I now speak to my 25+ Echos throughout the day and rely on them to control most things.

What you say makes sense, but I find that often I have to repeat commands to both Alexa and Google Home. It may be my European and my Wife's South American accents, but personally I find using the Iphone Apps (UD Mobile and Home Assistant) more practical.

[lilyoyo1]

37 minutes ago, ryarber said:

My understanding of what matter will be is essentially a homebridge replacement. Now, homebridge is apple/HomeKit specific. But it should work similarly for smart things or google home stuff and Alexa as well. I’m in the apple universe, so I’m only familiar with homebridge.

It is going to be a bigger deal to smaller companies like zooz or Insteon than companies like apple/google/Amazon/Samsung.

The company that makes my garage door opener, tailwind, had to put a lot of development time into HomeKit compatibility. They had to do the same with smart things and other platforms. Because the market for these devices is people who simply want remote control of their garage doors. There are 3 things you can do with the device in HomeKit. Check status, open, and close. You could also do some automations if you wanted such as set up a geofence in apple’s home app and control the device automatically based on geofence. You could also set up a siri control easily as well. Now, if you go into the tailwind app, you have many more options for settings such as automatically close at a certain time, you can geofence within the app, you can set a delay for it to automatically close, you can push notifications to your phone, you can have it automatically close at night, you can give temporary access to the device, and many other things.

Matter is a way for people to get centralized BASIC control of any supported device. The extended functions most devices will have will only be available in their specific apps. The other big thing matter may deliver is simple setup via Bluetooth and QR code.

Apple/google/Samsung/Amazon will likely offer some automations on their platforms. HomeKit/apple already offer basic automations. But full featured device control is t going to happen at least in the early versions of matter.

It is very convoluted, as you’ve said. Hopefully, things will simplify going forward. That’s the whole point of matter. I’m not sure what will happen to homebridge going forward if matter is successful except for it to continue to support legacy devices.


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Actually, you're incorrect about Matter. It's a huge deal for them. Not necessarily in hardware sales (but even that can increase) but in the race for more information. QR codes and Bluetooth setup is already available for most things (even zwave supports this) so that doesn't matter (pun intended). 

What Matter is attempting to do is get away from needing vendor apps to set up devices and allow for greater LOCALIZED integration. That's something they state repeatedly as an impediment to people using smart assistants and Matter is supposed to free you from needing that (which is why is said it's about the assistants).

Full featured device control will probably never happen due to the fact that so many devices can have different capabilities. It's easy to create device types and functions to control devices from multiple mfg.  However, once a person starts adding their own features to separate them from others, that becomes more difficult.  However, the integration Matter should allow will bring people closer to automation than what they have now. 

For example. In my house, I use android, my wife uses crapple, and in our parent rooms/guest rooms, they use Alexa while we use Google. If I were to use Google to turn a light on, my wife wouldn't be able to use her phone (and homekit) to turn it off...With Matter, this would be possible regardless of trigger. 

[ryarber]

Actually, you're incorrect about Matter. It's a huge deal for them. Not necessarily in hardware sales (but even that can increase) but in the race for more information. QR codes and Bluetooth setup is already available for most things (even zwave supports this) so that doesn't matter (pun intended). 
What Matter is attempting to do is get away from needing vendor apps to set up devices and allow for greater LOCALIZED integration. That's something they state repeatedly as an impediment to people using smart assistants and Matter is supposed to free you from needing that (which is why is said it's about the assistants).
Full featured device control will probably never happen due to the fact that so many devices can have different capabilities. It's easy to create device types and functions to control devices from multiple mfg.  However, once a person starts adding their own features to separate them from others, that becomes more difficult.  However, the integration Matter should allow will bring people closer to automation than what they have now. 
For example. In my house, I use android, my wife uses crapple, and in our parent rooms/guest rooms, they use Alexa while we use Google. If I were to use Google to turn a light on, my wife wouldn't be able to use her phone (and homekit) to turn it off...With Matter, this would be possible regardless of trigger. 

From what I’ve heard and read, only basic functions will be available in matter at first. The functions may grow over time. Setup should be simplified across devices, but companies adding features to differentiate themselves will have to rely on their own apps to achieve unsupported features. Much like we see today with current offerings.
So, while you won’t “need” vendor apps, you’ll want them to access the advanced functions.
For instance, a light switch… matter might allow you to turn on a light, turn it off, dim it to 60%, etc. But if you want a ramp rate or control the LED indicator on the switch, you might need manufacturers app.
So technically, you don’t “need” the app, but you’ll want to have that.


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