ISY Platform becoming unnecessary?

[x046866x]

I recently set up a new ecobee thermostat to replace a faulty Insteon 2441TH.  I wanted to set up the ecobee on the ISY994 and was going to do so with the polyglot.  The install of the Node server failed but it is because of an known error with Polyglot 2.x.  I've tried, for some time, to purchase a Polisy but to no avail.  I figured I'd be patient and wait for the eisy and set everything up there.....but that is still at least another month out (and continues to be delayed, so my confidence in 2022 availability is not high).

The question I came to was; why?  I use HomeAssistant (HA) as my primary interface with my home automation domain and use the ISY to integrate with my Insteon devices and also some handy programming.  There is a lessening need for adding things to my ISY domain at all.  In fact I had some integrations that were originally available to HA only because of ISY, that have since been replaced with full HA integrations.  I have removed things from ISY/Polyglot because I no longer need them there.  Its added value is decreasing the longer we wait for a new ISY....and I fear may be left behind.

The question for discussion is; for what do we need the ISY for any longer?  I used to go to ISY first and then try to figure out how to integrate to HA.  I've noticed more recently that this position appears to be reversed now and I go to HA and only to ISY for those things HA can't do yet.  This reversal was quite organic as the HA platform matures and grows.

My reasoning for ISY in addition to HA:

• I still like the ISY and its programming. 
• I like a lower level access and think ISY provides that for me.
• Access to my (dwindling) Insteon resources.

I fear my list is pretty short....and may not be sufficient to warrant the investment in the still-future-still-hoping eisy.  Your thoughts?

[upstatemike]

Only you can decide what you will need in the future. Some questions I would suggest are:

How rapidly do you plan to eliminate Insteon from your environment? You will need an integratable Insteon interface like ISY until then.

How confident are you using Home Assistant as your primary system with no lower level subsystems as backup? Home Assistant is notorious for introducing breaking changes on a regular basis.

What technology/protocol are you planning to focus on going forward? Is it one that ISY/eisy has Node Servers to support so you can continue to enjoy the programming interface you have now?

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, x046866x said:

I recently set up a new ecobee thermostat to replace a faulty Insteon 2441TH.  I wanted to set up the ecobee on the ISY994 and was going to do so with the polyglot.  The install of the Node server failed but it is because of an known error with Polyglot 2.x.  I've tried, for some time, to purchase a Polisy but to no avail.  I figured I'd be patient and wait for the eisy and set everything up there.....but that is still at least another month out (and continues to be delayed, so my confidence in 2022 availability is not high).

The question I came to was; why?  I use HomeAssistant (HA) as my primary interface with my home automation domain and use the ISY to integrate with my Insteon devices and also some handy programming.  There is a lessening need for adding things to my ISY domain at all.  In fact I had some integrations that were originally available to HA only because of ISY, that have since been replaced with full HA integrations.  I have removed things from ISY/Polyglot because I no longer need them there.  Its added value is decreasing the longer we wait for a new ISY....and I fear may be left behind.

The question for discussion is; for what do we need the ISY for any longer?  I used to go to ISY first and then try to figure out how to integrate to HA.  I've noticed more recently that this position appears to be reversed now and I go to HA and only to ISY for those things HA can't do yet.  This reversal was quite organic as the HA platform matures and grows.

My reasoning for ISY in addition to HA:

• I still like the ISY and its programming. 
• I like a lower level access and think ISY provides that for me.
• Access to my (dwindling) Insteon resources.

I fear my list is pretty short....and may not be sufficient to warrant the investment in the still-future-still-hoping eisy.  Your thoughts?

The need for any system is user based. Personally, I'll be upgrading one of my polisy's to the eisy. I have no interest in HA or any other DIY system. UDI has been great to me and supports what I need them to support (though I'm hoping they'll be able to support Ra3). In addition, I prefer knowing (and having) someone to reach out to for help should there be an issue. Their support is second to none. That matters more to me than an extensive list of supported devices that i probably will never use. 

 Sometimes our needs and desires change over time which means we outgrow things we really like. Only you can answer that. 

[larryllix]

Tried to buy a RPi 4 complete system lately?

I can buy a whole desktop system for that price and pick it up in the store today.

I don't want to hear about old parts people have hanging around to feed a system that hangs on its wires and must be mounted vertically so it doesn't act strangely in the summer. Complete system to compare apples with apples.

Don't forget a power switch.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[xlurkr]

Am I the only one who can’t figure out, from this post, what platforms larrylix thinks are good and which are bad?  It seems that he’s been dissing UD lately, but since this post starts with a RPi rant (which I understand is a common hardware platform for HA, but far from the only one), he lost me from the get go.

-Tom

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, xlurkr said:

Am I the only one who can’t figure out, from this post, what platforms larrylix thinks are good and which are bad?  It seems that he’s been dissing UD lately, but since this post starts with a RPi rant (which I understand is a common hardware platform for HA, but far from the only one), he lost me from the get go.

-Tom

I'm assuming he's trying to compare the cost of setting up an rpi to use with HA vs buying an eisy; even though the op didn't say anything about the cost of devices being an issue. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[larryllix]

18 hours ago, xlurkr said:

Am I the only one who can’t figure out, from this post, what platforms larrylix thinks are good and which are bad?  It seems that he’s been dissing UD lately, but since this post starts with a RPi rant (which I understand is a common hardware platform for HA, but far from the only one), he lost me from the get go.
-Tom

You read funny. I doubt I have ever dissed UD.

I was just pointing out that the ones thinking they will run to a $30 RPi with HomAss are a few years behind the times

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

Edited November 22, 2022 by larryllix

[x046866x]

All interesting points.  The ISY slant makes sense given the audience, but part of my intent was to solicit thoughts/ideas around why I should keep it.  Some replies:

- I don't want to have to focus on any particular vendor or protocol.  I was intending on using ISY/Polyglot as an aggregator, which was working fairly well for some of the popular protocols....until Polygot 2.x lost support and I couldn't get a Polisy.  Then I got HA running (on a Pi I had before the chip shortage) and it supports far more platforms far more natively.  I currently have a smattering of different devices that I like to integrate with my home automation system  and currently have integrations in HA for: 

• Insteon/ISY994 (and therefore Polyglot integrations)
• Hue
• GE/Enbrighten
• Chamberlain
• Sonos
• LG TV's
• ecobee
• HP
• Harmony
• Kohler
• Synology
• Tuya
• Home-built ESP32 devices
• Alexa

note: HA has matured significantly over the past year

- I'm hoping that Matter/Thread will help smooth cross-vendor integrations even further, but that is still to be seen.

- I've been a loyal fan of Insteon/UD for many years (I think I still have my ISY99 in a closet somewhere).  The ISY has been, generally, rock solid.  Mixed results with some of the Insteon devices, but overall will still be using them for a while.  Because of the fate of Insteon, however, there is no way to replace many of the devices once they break and their future is bleak, at best.  So my need to support Insteon will decline just by natural attrition.

- While I have not leveraged the programming in HA I've enjoyed programming in ISY for years and have many convenience programs functioning well.  I think it has an edge, but frankly I do need to study up on HA programming a bit.

- For the record: It is highly likely I will get an eisy also as the geek in me won't be able to resist. 

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

8 minutes ago, x046866x said:

 

- For the record: It is highly likely I will get an eisy also as the geek in me won't be able to resist. 

 

 

There's your answer there 😀. Sometimes the simplest answer makes the most sense!

My answer would be for the support that UDI offers. Regardless of expertise level, we will all need help at some point. While forums are a great resource, sometimes, you need direct support from someone and who better to turn to than the creator of a product? Regardless of how great HA could potentially be, that'll always be its downfall for me. Maybe it would be different if I were a tinkerer but I don't have time (probably a personality trait too) to use the forums to troubleshoot.

The fact that I have to setup and manage an RPI (or computer) is too much for me. Id rather get a shiny new box in the mail and call it a day. Since you've already done that, your reasons are different than mine which is why I said its a personal choice. We all could give hundreds of reasons but if none fit you, its all a moot point.

[asbril]

10 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There's your answer there 😀. Sometimes the simplest answer makes the most sense!

My answer would be for the support that UDI offers. Regardless of expertise level, we will all need help at some point. While forums are a great resource, sometimes, you need direct support from someone and who better to turn to than the creator of a product? Regardless of how great HA could potentially be, that'll always be its downfall for me. Maybe it would be different if I were a tinkerer but I don't have time (probably a personality trait too) to use the forums to troubleshoot.

The fact that I have to setup and manage an RPI (or computer) is too much for me. Id rather get a shiny new box in the mail and call it a day. Since you've already done that, your reasons are different than mine which is why I said its a personal choice. We all could give hundreds of reasons but if none fit you, its all a moot point.

I agree with @lilyoyo1 about the superiority of ISY. The programing is better and the support is out-of-this-world. I use HA mostly as a front as I am (almost) all day on the computer and prefer to control my set-up from a PC rather than from the phone, though I do use UD Mobile and HA on my Iphone. I also have a few HA Integrations but ISY (Polisy and soon eisy) remains the core of my setup.

Just know that HA is coming out with their own "Yellow" box, but as you said there is no support.

[upstatemike]

I run both Polisy and Home Assistant and will be keeping both because the blue Polisy box matches the blue Home Assistant box. I will not be upgrading to eisy or the Home Assistant Yellow because I would lose that color coordination. Everybody has to follow their own priorities when choosing home automation hardware.

[asbril]

42 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I run both Polisy and Home Assistant and will be keeping both because the blue Polisy box matches the blue Home Assistant box. I will not be upgrading to eisy or the Home Assistant Yellow because I would lose that color coordination. Everybody has to follow their own priorities when choosing home automation hardware.

But having a blue and a yellow box would show your support for Ukraine  

[mapeter]

I think it would be interesting to create a node server that allowed the devices for which HA has integrations to be available to the ISY.  This would compliment the ISY->HA integration that exists today.  Then all integrations are available to both platforms.  Taking it a step further, it would be interesting to see what it would take to run HA on Polisy or eISY hardware.  One less piece of hardware in the mix.

[carealtor]

16 minutes ago, mapeter said:

Taking it a step further, it would be interesting to see what it would take to run HA on Polisy or eISY hardware.  One less piece of hardware in the mix.

I've wondered about this too.  I'm currently running HA on a VM on a Windows 10 PC that is always on using VirtualBox and it is working very well for me.  Still, would be nice.

[upstatemike]

4 hours ago, mapeter said:

I think it would be interesting to create a node server that allowed the devices for which HA has integrations to be available to the ISY.  This would compliment the ISY->HA integration that exists today.  Then all integrations are available to both platforms.  Taking it a step further, it would be interesting to see what it would take to run HA on Polisy or eISY hardware.  One less piece of hardware in the mix.

This would solve my case color coordination problem as well.

[larryllix]

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

This would solve my case color coordination problem as well.

Get some matching Christmas paper for both and get on with it.

[beninsteon]

Most have realized the ISY reliability and programming structure is second to none, but HA offers an excellent front end and many more integrations. Hence many of us run both platforms and the ability to consolidate software on a single hardware platform (i.e. eisy/polisy) would be excellent. UD may be reluctant though given their push for further node server development with direct ISY integration, and the additional software/dependencies may compromise the stability of the IoX box.

Edited November 23, 2022 by beninsteon

[Michel Kohanim]

@beninsteon,

We are not reluctant at all. With eisy, you have 8GB of RAM and 60GB of storage (and you can add up to 1T of NVMe SSD). Just to give you some metrics: I use my eisy for development: running Eclipse, CDT (compile c/c++), Chrome + Bluetooth streaming video/music and of course isy, udx, pg3, polyglot, etc. and I still have 2G of free RAM and never get above 50% on CPU (only when I compile). So, go wild!

The main issue is that we just don't have the time/resources to make it into something we fully support. Of course, if there's a developer who would like to take on this task, sell it as a node server, and support it, s/he will have my full support.

With kind regards,
Michel

[beninsteon]

2 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Of course, if there's a developer who would like to take on this task

What OS is eisy running? 

It would certainly be nice to have HA (and other software like pihole, samba server, etc) run concurrently on the same box. Could be marketed as the ultimate smarthome hardware.

Ben

[Bumbershoot]

4 hours ago, beninsteon said:

What OS is eisy running? 

I believe it’s been stated somewhere that it’s the same as Polisy — FreeBSD.  Not certain about the version, however.

[Michel Kohanim]

8 hours ago, beninsteon said:

It would certainly be nice to have HA (and other software like pihole, samba server, etc) run concurrently on the same box. Could be marketed as the ultimate smarthome hardware.

Samba is already available. 

OS is FreeBSD.

With kind regards,

Michel

[larryllix]

On 11/22/2022 at 4:02 PM, carealtor said:

I've wondered about this too.  I'm currently running HA on a VM on a Windows 10 PC that is always on using VirtualBox and it is working very well for me.  Still, would be nice.

I run several other pieces of python software on my polisy along with IoP and Ployglot v3. They talk to each other via Ethernet/localhost TCP/IP as if they were located in different boxes, just fine.

I have also run ISY994 with a RPi 3, polisy with a RPi3, polisy with itself, polisy with another polisy for my NRbrdge software. Any quirks found were my own bugs. All hardware configurations functioned quite well except where my software bugs flooded the Ethernet ports.

 

[ase]

I would have to say after reading this thread I think I can safely say, anyone who thinks ISY is no longer relevant, doesn't understand home automation.

The problem is that many people miss use and misunderstand the terms Smart Home and Home Automation with something more akin to a "home remote". 

ISY isn't really what you want if you just want to be able to use your phone or voice to turn lights on and off. 

ISY is what you want when you expect the home to do things without intervention. When you want to be able to integrate information and control from a variety of sources to create a full automated home.

I would argue that the ISY framework is more relevant now, than ever before. As we see more and more "smart" devices. We are on the cusp of Matter, however Matter is simply a communications protocol. It will not alone allow for one to create true home automation. You will still need some sort of hub to create the programs and scenes. ISY is certainly the most mature and stable platform from which to work from.

From the hardware perspective both Polisy and Eisy are X86 PCs running BSD.

If you wrap your head around that simple fact, you will understand that means you can install any software within the repositories and that technically you can configure PKG to download and install from any freeBSD repository. 

Now I am going to be incredibly blunt here. If you want a file server, build one, if you want PiHole, install it on a Pi. If you want a Jellyfin/Emby/Plex media server build one, if you want web server again build one. PC components have drop to the lowest cost in 36 months, build away.  Technically yes Polisy and Eisy are capable of doing all of this. However, I am sure UDI didn't factor running all of this on top of ISY and Polyglot when choosing the hardware.

On top of that it is stupid to put all of those things on one system. One bad package or a bad power supply and all of your stuff goes down. Always, always minimize single points of failure. If anything you want to trend the other way and separate out services to dedicate hardware or build out a private cloud to run these types of services.

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by ase

[NFLnut]

Here's my $0.02 that no one asked for, nor wanted. I have had my ISY994i ZW/IR PRO since Jan 2017. I'm not a power user i.e. I haven't set up a lot of complicated programs, etc. Just never had time to learn but I do have a fair number of devices that I have set up basic daily automation for. I started many years ago with HALDeluxe and a bunch of X10 devices (some still going including X10 thermostats in a zone system). Slowly replaced with Insteon. Very few Z-wave since Insteon was often way too expensive. Started messing around with HA on a Pi. Then, I moved it to my UnRAID server on a VM (works GREAT .. much better than the Pi). Until Insteon went belly up, so I just started dabbling with Zigbee and a couple Shelly devices. Which required me to look for a secondary hub and I bought a Hubitat Elevation to control Zigbee. I was able to get an ISY bridge set up on HE and I've had a bridge on the HA for quite a while which controls everything.

Here's the deal .. I MUCH prefer the ISY and so I will be buying an eisy the minute I see them available. **BUT** even though I like the Admin Console to some extent and it's powerful simplicity for programing and setup, I much prefer using the dashboards on HA for controlling devices and getting an overall glance of everything (just being honest). Even having my DirecTV DVRs and what's playing and ability to pause, FF, REW, control TVs and my Squeezebox players (and what's playing. Pause, REW, FF). So, I will continue to use both the ISY AC AND HA. If I can get the Z-Matter/Zigbee running on the eisy, I will unplug the Hubitat as I only bought it for Zigbee, I have the old Z-wave card in my ISY so I can't update it to use the latest Polyglot which the eisy will enable.

For the TL:DR crowd .. I still prefer the ISY so will go with eisy. I would personally NOT try to run HA on the eisy even though it seems to have plenty of horsepower. I prefer separation. It's far too easy and I think a better idea to run it on a Pi or a server. UnRAID has run it with no problems and much better than my Pi did. I'm just hoping that I can find replacements for my Insteon devices that are as reliable. That is my current predicament. I have to find a decent replacement for my Insteon 8-button Mini Remote Controls. I've found no substitute.

[ShawnW]

25 minutes ago, NFLnut said:

I'm just hoping that I can find replacements for my Insteon devices that are as reliable. That is my current predicament. I have to find a decent replacement for my Insteon 8-button Mini Remote Controls. I've found no substitute.

I'm sure this wasn't your point - but (the 'new') Insteon has those in stock and shipping now. I just test-purchased and received an order of several devices from them and all went well.

Is everyone nervous about their future? Sure. Who cares - you can buy what you want, right now, new. Otherwise the future will be what it will.

FYI, their store is now also saying that both USB and Serial PLM's with updated caps will be available Q1 2023. I hope it's true.