Is a Z-Wave device the best replacement for the 2450 I/O Link?

[n4bos]

Greetings all,

My house has a gated driveway.  That led me to Insteon about 10 years ago and the 2450 IO Link to monitor the open/close status of the gate and the relay output to actually open or close the gate remotely.  Of course, it didn't take long to realize the limitations of the Insteon Hub so a 994i was added to the mix.  That led to the proliferation of Insteon devices all over the house along with Portal integration so the Amazon Dot(s) could be used for various commands.

With the unknown unavailability of Insteon devices, it's looking like it's time to make a change.  I'm about ready to convert to the eisy with a Z-Wave dongle but I'd really like some opinions before I do that.  The capability of controlling and monitoring the gate is of high importance in my home automation scheme.  The gate is about 150 "wire feet" from the house and about 100 "line of site" feet from the location of the 994i and the router, both of which are located on the second floor of the house.  I mention that because I've never been sure how the Insteon device gets its commands but since it's located in the metal box that contains the gate controller electronics, I suspect it's been over the power line. 

All that is by way of setting up the question I have.....  Is a Z-wave device the best choice for this job or is there a better alternative out there?  Before I spring for an eisy and the Z-wave dongle, I'd like to have some level of confidence that it will work for this job.  If it doesn't, a large part of the reason to upgrade to the eisy is gone for me.

I'm not against purchasing a Z-wave device like the Zooz 700 Series Relay ZEN17 to see if it will work but obviously I'll need some kind of controller to give it a try.  Any suggestions for that as well?  I'm not against installing an antenna on the outside of the controller enclosure if that's necessary to improve "range". 

I appreciate any suggestions you might have.

Steve

Edited May 7, 2023 by n4bos

[MrBill]

1 hour ago, n4bos said:

With the unknown unavailability of Insteon devices,

For the foreseeable future, with the new ownership group in place, I don't think Insteon availability is an issue.  Further I personally think the new ownership group is attempting to keep the cheap parts that fail out of the products now.  Only time will tell. 

I personally wouldn't rely on a z-wave solution, but then again I don't like z-wave and don't have any in my installation.    To effectively answer tho, does the gate have wired Ethernet and/or a decent Wifi signal?

 

[n4bos]

9 minutes ago, MrBill said:

   To effectively answer tho, does the gate have wired Ethernet and/or a decent Wifi signal?

There's no Ethernet there.  If there were, this whole thing would be easier but at this point, it'd be VERY difficult to add a line.  Wish I'd thought about it when I built the place but that never crossed my mind.  It's probably 100 feet or so from the WiFi router and it's in a metal enclosure so I'd say WiFi is "iffy"  I do have some Kasa devices so I might put one in the box just to see if it will work.

Additionally, the 2450's have been somewhat unreliable or "fragile" in that environment.  I don't know if power surges have killed them or what but I have lost several in the gate while I have two others that monitor sump pumps and have worked fine for several years.  In the gate, the device is on a surge arrestor as well but they still die.  That's another reason to consider another solution. 

I wasn't aware that Insteon had started to produce the 2450's again so I wasn't confident it the long term availability of the device.  Have you heard different?

9 minutes ago, MrBill said:

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

24 minutes ago, n4bos said:

 In the gate, the device is on a surge arrestor as well but they still die.  

 

That's part of your problem right there

[n4bos]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's part of your problem right there

How's that?  It's a peak clamping device that limits the voltage spikes.  How's that a problem?

 

 

[lilyoyo1]

3 minutes ago, n4bos said:

How's that?  It's a peak clamping device that limits the voltage spikes.  How's that a problem?

 

 

The owners manual specifically says not to plug it into surge protectors.

[TSinclair]

I've used a ZEN17 to control the garage door(s) in my detached garage for the last couple months.  It has been 98% reliable.  The 2% failures are from not opening or closing upon a z-wave button push from the house.  I haven't had any random opens.

With that said, I would not trust Z-wave at your 100' distance.  I have a switch in a shed at about that distance and the success rate is ~80%.

[n4bos]

The problem I have had is NOT a communication problem but rater one of the device dying.  The only thing I can think of is voltage spikes, that's why I put the peak arrestor on it.  When I first installed the device in the gate, I had no arrestor and I had a couple of the 2450's die.  That's why I put the peak locking device in.  It made no difference.  My thought is that the 150 feet or so of power line wire is eventually an antenna and a lightning pulse is PROBABLY inducing a pretty good spike into the power line.

[n4bos]

TSinclair,

 

Thanks for the input.  That's exactly what I wanted to learn.  Do you think a device at that distance with an external antenna might be better?  

[TSinclair]

I haven't tinkered with external antennas, so I can't say.  Logically it seems it might be worth a try.

[n4bos]

I might be forced to go that way.  I hate to buy an eisy and the dongle and then find it doesn't do the job.  Do you know of a CHEAP Z-wave controller to try it.  As MrBill says, Insteon has been fine other than the reliability but I think its long-term availability is yet to be determined.

[Techness]

Note that in my experience adding a Z-wave device is not a small undertaking as you really need to have a network of devices before they start performing reliably.  They need neighbors devices nearby that they can communicate with to create a mesh network. in my experience to be reliable at all they need to be in range of at least two other devices that are capable of two way communication (power line devices).  I began my Z-wave journey with 2 door locks and ended up having to adding 5 Z-wave power outlets around my small house before I had a somewhat reliable network. 

Concerning reliability of devices will say that I have already had to replace two Z-wave outlets in less then 5 years.   I have never had to replace any of my Insteon outlets that are now 10 years old and are cycled at least once a day.  Now that I wrote that, I know what I will be doing next weekend ;).  

That said,  I now have a much larger z-wave network in my house including a ZEN17 relay that seems to be working OK. Although is a bit slower in response time then I would like.  To early to rate it on reliability as it has only been in use for a couple of months.

Concerning my controller I still run a ISY994 with a 500 series Z-wave board.  So an upgrade to an EISY might give you better mileage.

[n4bos]

Thanks for the input!!

[Brian H]

The 2450 I/OLink has the same switching power supply IC as the 2413 PLM.

I have an older one with small caps and a few later ones where Smartlabs tried a bigger cap but it still was not rated for a switching supply. Can not say about the very latest ones.

The surge suppressor warning maybe some have noise suppression components. The 2450 is power line only and that type of unit would suck up the Insteon Power Line Commands. Greatly reducing the distance it could receive commands.

[n4bos]

In my experience, they typically stop working after a storm so I suspect it has to do with a lightning pulse.  I've had them work for a year or two and I've had them die in a few months.  Sometimes, they simply stop working but a more typical failure is the sensor circuit fails and will no longer read the open/close signal.  Because of that unreliability, I'd really like to engineer another solution.  I understand the mesh requirement for the Z-wave to work but given it is NOT a direct power line connected device, I think that might be better in my application.  I have a 12 volt battery backed supply in the gate so I can probably use that for a power supply, potentially minimizing the pulse effect from the power line.  If I had a Z-wave hub to test with, I'd probably re-engineer one of the devices for an external antenna and install a "repeater" about half way from the hub and give it a try. I'm an old HAM so playing with RF is no concern to me at all.

If I thought Insteon was going to be around and make the 2450 more robust, I'd simply wait a while but I really need to get the remote capability of the gate restored so it might necessitate some engineering on my part.

Anybody have an old Z-wave hub they'd be willing to "rent" me to try out?

[n4bos]

I may have a (testing) solution at hand...  I have a back-up ISY994i that I have had on the shelf and it turns out it is the ISY994i ZW+ PRO.  If I read it correctly, that already has the Z-Wave capability on board.  If that's correct, I guess replacing my old controller with this one SHOULD get me a testing environment.  Anybody know if I am reading this correctly?

[Geddy]

1 hour ago, n4bos said:

I guess replacing my old controller with this one SHOULD get me a testing environment.

Check out this post and pay attention to the version of boards in the ISY994. You either have 300 or 500 series boards in the ISY994. The ZMatter dongle for the eisy is said to have much better range. So if you did try and didn't have good range results from the board in the ISY it's possible the ZMatter dongle would improve range slightly, but as @Technesssuggests above you should build out a strong z-wave network for it's mesh properties. 

If you bought the ISY994I ZW+ PRO directly from UDI then it should have a Zwave. If you bought it 3rd party it's possible the z-wave board could have been removed before selling. Only way to know for sure would be to open it up (wiki instructions) and confirm the board is installed. 

Last comment would be if you power up the other ISY994i ZW+ and log into the admin console...if it says you're in safe mode it's got a firmware that is looking for a PLM. If you're just going to test Z-wave with that device you should update to the Z-wave only Firmware so it wouldn't be looking for a PLM and not be in "safe mode". 

In the "Current Release" area find the firmware that fits the version board you have and look for the link similar to this, "ISY 994i ZW, Z, or ZS Series (Z-Wave/Zigbee and/or if you do NOT have a PLM)" (specifically the part bolded).

 

[n4bos]

Geddy,

Thanks for the inputs.  This ISY came directly from UDI in July of 2021 so it SHOULD have the board.  If I understand correctly, I SHOULD be able to bring it up as  stand-alone device and do my testing without taking my existing Insteon network down, correct?  I really would rather not mess with marrying it to my PLM if I don't have to.  If I get the Z-wave to work acceptably, THEN I could install the backup of my existing ISY and go through that.  Am I correct?

[upstatemike]

For your application I would consider Yolink LoRa devices before resorting to Z-Wave. 

[n4bos]

I have some YoLink devices and like them a lot.  I'd like to stay with something that will work with the UDI equipment since it's all integrated....  when the gate opens, it turns on outside lights, sends an email and a text that the gate is opened (or closed) and logs the time and date.  I don't think there is a way to integrate the YoLink stuff into that unless I'm mistaken.  Thanks for the suggestion though.  Their stuff does work well.

[n4bos]

Looks like I was wrong.  Apparently the eisy DOES support YoLink.  I'll order one to try.  Thanks for the suggestion!

Steve

[Geddy]

@n4bos sorry for delayed reply...tried to get to it this morning before work and meetings got the better of my day....

21 hours ago, n4bos said:

If I understand correctly, I SHOULD be able to bring it up as  stand-alone device and do my testing without taking my existing Insteon network down, correct? 

Yes. That's correct. You can run two (or multiple) ISY994 (or any UDI device) and not impact your current system as long as you intend to keep them completely separate. The only caution I was mentioning before is to get the non-PLM firmware installed on the ISY994 that you're only going to test Z-Wave on. The firmware will keep it from going into safe mode and allow you to operate it as expected.

21 hours ago, n4bos said:

If I get the Z-wave to work acceptably, THEN I could install the backup of my existing ISY and go through that.  Am I correct?

If you're eventually moving over to the eisy I wouldn't move from one ISY994 to another ISY994. I would just keep them apart. If you're only getting one (or very few) Z-wave devices then it wouldn't be much to move those over to the eisy+ZMatter dongle once you had that installed and running. You can even run the eisy and keep your previous ISY994+PLM in place while you setup the ZMatter on the eisy. 

6 hours ago, n4bos said:

Apparently the eisy DOES support YoLink.  I'll order one to try.

Yes, eisy does support YoLink through node server. You can find the current list of node servers available here: https://polyglot.universal-devices.com/

If you end up going with a YoLink product over Z-Wave then you could just setup the eisy and try out the Node Server while still keeping your current ISY994 running the system as you have it. Just note that the IoX on the eisy would not be controlling anything on your ISY994 system until you migrate the Insteon and PLM to the eisy system. 

 

6 hours ago, n4bos said:

I'd like to stay with something that will work with the UDI equipment since it's all integrated

Your use of "integrated" here bothers me. I read that as you wanted to stay with Z-Wave because there was a Z-Wave controller available in the UDI product you already have. Note that it's "integrated" in that it can be controlled by the ISY994+ZW, but it's still a different system. 

What the eisy does is allow the node servers to bring control of the various systems into the "ISY" world. It's only "integrated" in the sense that you use the UDI system to control everything under one roof. It's still an external system, but it is incorporated with the ISY service through the means of the node server(s). Whereas ZMatter is also incorporated into the ISY service through a UDI supplied hardware to communicate with the Z-Wave (and in the future Matter) ecosystem.

Given the range that you mention I do think YoLink has better range if they have a product as @upstatemike indicated that might work for your situation. I do not have any YoLink products, but they have been on my radar to possibly test out should I need to replace a few parts of my system. 

Good luck! Post back how your test proceeds. 

[n4bos]

Geddy,

Thanks VERY much for your insightful reply.  Let me clarify a few things in case I have confused you.  By integrated, I meant that when the gate opens (or closes), the ISY presently (well, before the last 2450 failed) sends me a text telling me the gate had opened or closed.  Also, through the magic of Insteon, I could open or close the gate from anywhere and since we travel a fair bit, often used that capability for deliveries, maintenance people, etc.  The integration I was referring to was the gate controls were integrated into my ISY and at the time, I didn't think the YoLink device could be integrated into esiy so it could take advantage of its capabilities to send emails, turn on outside lights etc.  If I understand the eisy/YoLink capability correctly, it CAN be "integrated" into the eisy so that the signal from the YoLink device CAN be used to trigger other events.  Hope that helps.... AND that I haven't misunderstood.

As for my second ISY99i (with Z-wave); I'd LIKE to set that up as a Z-wave only test device to prove out the Z-wave capability to communicate with the gate.  I'd like to NOT disturb the working ISY/PLM at all if I can.  I have ordered one of the Z-wave relay modules to test/modify.  I suspect I'll have to open it up and configure it for a remote antenna since it will be housed in a metal box at the gate.  I suspect I'll have to add a "repeater" or two in between to get it working but if it's successful, I'll definitely go to an eisy and migrate all my Insteon stuff over as well as incorporate the z-wave and YoLink stuff to (hopefully) make the system more reliable long term and hopefully. robust.

Does that all make sense and do you see any holes in my thought process or or understanding?

Thanks again for the help!!

Steve

[MrBill]

20 hours ago, n4bos said:

The integration I was referring to was the gate controls were integrated into my ISY and at the time, I didn't think the YoLink device could be integrated into esiy so it could take advantage of its capabilities to send emails, turn on outside lights etc.  If I understand the eisy/YoLink capability correctly, it CAN be "integrated" into the eisy so that the signal from the YoLink device CAN be used to trigger other events

You got ahead of yourself and answered your own question.  Yolink nodes can be included in programs that send notifications just like an Insteon Device.

 

20 hours ago, n4bos said:

I'd LIKE to set that up as a Z-wave only test device to prove out the

the problem is Z-wave has evolved.   300 and 500 series z-wave weren't great with range... the 700 / (800?) stuff has better range... but probably not the distance to the gate.  so the stuff that works with a 994 isn't that robust anyway..to test you really need to use the eisy and Zmatter. 

[brians]

Zen17 works great and very reliable. All my iolincs died over time so would never buy another one again again. I’m moving away from insteon anyways and only devices that interest me are i3.