Home Router Replacement

[KSchex]

Hi all..

I currently have a several year old Netgear WNDR4000 router.  It has performed fine but it is at it's limits with phones, home automation, TVs, laptops, Kindle, printer, diskstation, media server, etc.  I would like to replace the router with something of todays technology that is a stable name brand product reasonably priced.  What I don't want is a unit with a dozen antennas and all these fancy gaming features.  That is not  necessary.  There is only two of us, using AT&T Uverse internet (non fiber), about 24 Mbps down and 6 Mbps up.  Any pointers or product recommendations would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[kzboray]

you might check out...

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/

I've found their reviews to be worthwhile reading.

[elvisimprsntr]

Sounds like you are already knowledgeable in networking.

My recommendation would be to ditch the consumer [redacted] and step up to open source enterprise class firewall software https://pfsense.org which will run on almost any x86_64 gear, including virtualized.  You can repurpose an existing x86_64 machine or pick up a used  Qotom off evilBay for less than $50.  It literally takes 10 minutes to get pfSense up and running for a basic network with the built in wizard.  

Tom Lawrence and Network Chuck (if you can stomach his caffeine fueled sense of humor) have some how to videos.  

 

 

 

Then add separate enterprise class 802.11ax WiFi 6 access point(s).   Don't pay a premium for WiFi 6E gear since it will be replaced with WiFi 7.  Your needs are minimal, so a 2x2 802.11ax WiFi 6 AP would be more than sufficient.  You may need to add additional APs depending on number of floors, materials, square footage, etc.    Stay away from MESH access points/routers, as those cut your bandwidth in half if they don't have a dedicated backhaul channel for MESH.  You can find a more than capable enterprise class 2x2 802.11ax WiFi 6 AP for <$100.  I have 2 Engenius 4x4 and 1 2x2 APs in my three story townhome.  All three are on the same SSID, both bands, on non-overlapping channels.   Clients seamlessly switch between bands and APs as I move throughout my home.  

So for less than $150 you can have an enterprise class level network you have complete control over, is flexible, and upgradable.  

The only word of caution is some older clients do not support 802.11ax even when 2.4GHz is placed in non-ax mode and WPA2.   For example, I had a 10+ year old HP Envy that would not connect, so I kept my old Linksys router until the printer finally gave out. Most consumer routers allow one to put it into access point (AP) mode with the OEM firmware.  If not, you can re-flash it with open source https://openwrt.org router firmware. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by elvisimprsntr

[vbPhil]

I just bought the ASUS RT-AXE7800 and absolutely love it. I was looking for one that had WiFi 6E. I’m using 6E for the new Amazon Fire TV Cube. It works great. Probably more than what you’re looking for but I just had to raise the recommendation. My Internet provider is Comcast’s GigaBit service. I typically get download speed measurements greater than 900 Mbps. It has 6 antennas. 

[JTsao]

I bought my previous router based on smallnetbuilder.com recommendations but currently, I am running a Ubiquiti Dream Machine Pro with two WiFi 6 LR access points - it works well and seems to be a step up from my previous experience with Netgear and TP-Link routers

[Athlon]

15 hours ago, KSchex said:

Any pointers or product recommendations would be appreciated.

One important thing you didn't mention is how large your property is. How much area do you need to cover?

[Geddy]

19 hours ago, KSchex said:

I currently have a several year old Netgear WNDR4000 router.

It depends what your budget is, the size of space to cover, and what devices you are running. You seem to mention that the current device is fine, but you're at the limit of number of devices it can support. Most home devices will be somewhat limiting until you get into the higher cost devices (that then include the multiple antenna and game functions that you don't want/need). 

Having just setup a new Netgear device for a friend I cannot suggest that brand any longer. It has too many shortcomings nearly requiring the phone app and cloud login for setup. Netgear has also removed remote admin access to rely on an app to connect to the router while remote. App access is too basic for more advanced setup to be done remotely. 

You don't need Wi-Fi 6 if you don't have any devices that use that technology. If you're in an apartment you don't need 2500 sq ft coverage, since your speeds aren't so fast you don't need 1gbps options. 

I would suggest UniFi Dream Router. It's currently showing out of stock, but I think it comes and goes quite a bit. There was a way to follow stock updates on Reddit last year when I snagged mine. I forget how it worked now since I only used it once. It offers you a look into the Unifi settings of being almost overly complicated while giving you full speed ability for what you currently have (the Dream Router is capped at about 600mbps so don't get it if you're going to 1gbps service in the near future). It's simple because it is the all-in-one option from Unifi so it's simple to setup just like a Netgear, Linksys, or TP-Link, but has more abilities...sometimes too much for a typical home user. 

If you are a Costco member I would suggest buying from there (for their return policy).  

Notes: 

• Netgear - always was a good brand to suggest, but recent changes have dumbed down the app for remote admin abilities
• TP-Link - cheap option, but they never support their hardware beyond one or two firmware upgrades and even "high end" systems seem to only last a couple of years
• Linksys - haven't tried this brand in a few years, but old school builds were strong
• Asus - some here really like this brand, but they also don't appear to update firmware beyond 18-24 months of release so only buy new equipment. 
• eero - does not play well with comcast internet (last time I tried it at least). But you're on Uverse so does not apply

 

If you do go for a mesh system (for larger spaces/coverage) make sure you get at least a tri-band system. That way one band is a dedicated backhaul for increased speeds on the whole mesh network. 

 

[KSchex]

22 hours ago, kzboray said:

you might check out...

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/

I've found their reviews to be worthwhile reading.

Thanks for the tip.

[KSchex]

Thanks all for the tips.  I guess I need to start researching..

[larryllix]

42 minutes ago, KSchex said:

Thanks all for the tips.  I guess I need to start researching..

If you have equipment that moves around, like a VR headset or WiFi remote control of some sort you may want to avoid mesh routers. When my VR headset would change APs it would disconnect and need to be re-connected. Many WiFi equipment devices do not like to change routers.

Also when I went Mesh with ASUS routers they software reduced the power of all of them and none would transmit that far anymore. My wife's older iPad wouldn't talk to my ASUS AX92 routers with direct line of site on 5GHz over 10 feet away. Great on higher band 5GHz.

Get a WiFi6 router for sure. It is the newer method of arbitrating devices on every band and can make your WiFi system much more efficient. All my 2.4GHz devices were mostly talking at 866 Mbps, and my 5GHz VR headset connected at 1200 Mbps, faster than wired Ethernet could. WiFi 5 is becoming an obsolete protocol but still supported.

WiFi 6E is a newer high-freq. band that will offer almost exclusive access for a few years. Too expensive yet and WiFi 7 is coming later.

[RPerrault]

roaming is a controller function - sounds like you need one

 

[Mecheng70]

I am actually contemplating moving from pfsense to opnsense

[vbPhil]

16 hours ago, larryllix said:

WiFi 6E is a newer high-freq. band that will offer almost exclusive access for a few years. Too expensive yet and WiFi 7 is coming later.

Broadcom Unveils 2nd-Gen Wi-Fi 7 Chips: BCM6765, BCM47722, and BCM4390.

Just some Wifi7 news. I found this to be a good technical site for keeping up with new technology and equipment reviews.

https://dongknows.com/broadcom-2nd-gen-wi-fi-7-bcm6765-bcm47722-bcm4390/

 

 

[upstatemike]

This is an interesting topic in that none of the suggestions cover all of the points that I would consider critical:

Dual Wan (so probably not a mesh system)

Wired backhaul

Good roaming control

Flexible spanning tree settings to support legacy configurations for Sonos and similiar products (so probably not Unifi)

Good compatibility with Amazon Echo which sometimes struggles when doing grouping in an environment spanning multiple APs or repeaters.

Good DHCP support that can handle very large tables of reserved addresses and reliably respond to requests even under heavy loads

[Geddy]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

none of the suggestions cover all of the points that I would consider critical

So what's your suggestion? Because nothing I've seen comes close to covering ALL the points you mention. Got to live with what's available.

Honestly, with U-verse DSL a router from 2010 would probably work well enough, but seems OP has exceeded a number of connected devices for most "home"/consumer grade routers even offered today. That's always been a big "gotcha" when adding wifi "smart" devices. 

Without really knowing more from the OP suggestions are just speculations and what might work for our own use. 

[slimypizza]

To KSchex

You might consider the Linksys AX1800 Wi-Fi 6 Router since you're looking for something without a lot of antennas.  Personally I've gone the pFsense route with Orbi 850s but I think this Linksys would work for you as a replacement to your Netgear WNDR4000.

[RPerrault]

this is not the place to get an answer to your question

a correct answer would involve a lot of questions you would need to answer - like - what is your current constraint - what is the evidence of the constraint - how many devices and how are they connected - that type of traffic for the devices - what is a guesstimate of growth - what is your knowledge level of networking and how much time do you want to invest in setup and maintenance - are you willing or able to run wires - how much time are you willing to invest to understand networking - money - blah

the correct answer is not buick - a buick would probably work for you but it might not be a perfect fit - does the fit have to be perfect or just something that works?

a router might perform several functions but technically, a router is not wifi nor does it provide dhcp functions - i'm not sure people here understand that - to be sure, a buick does not either - but if you want to look for a best fit, you should understand the basic components of a network and their functions

router - routes traffic to its destinations for ip traffic - in a home network, modem is probably more accurate

switch - device to connect end point devices (pc, tivo, access point, ip camera, voip phone, etc.) or another switch - your isp router probably has a built in switch but has a limited number of ports - you want gb ethernet ports and possibly poe (power over ethernet - supplies electrical power over the same cable as the data communications)

wifi - your isp router might have this but you might want to disable it and install one or more access points - these are commonly poe so research that before buying your switch - 'mesh' is just a range extender for people that like buzzwords - run an ethernet cable from a poe switch to each poe access point if possible - if you have two or more access points, you must have something to coordinate roaming (if you want roaming) (was called a wifi controller) - this function might be built into access point now but it is needed for roaming - depending on the sophistication of the access point, adding more can lower your service area (they adjust their radio power when they detect overlapping) - allow the access points or controller to handle channel assignments

dhcp assigns ip addresses - your home router might provide the function but it is not a router function - when a new device enters the network, it sends a broadcast for an ip address - dhcp answers with the needed information to join the network - it works - use it whenever possible (only a few antiquated devices need an assigned ip address - you are not going to improve anything by assigning your own addresses) - dchp functions are usually handled by a server - not necessarily a dedicated server - if you have a home server you might want to let it handle dhcp for you (and if you don't have a home server yet, you will someday)

what you probably want - a router (let it handle dhcp), a switch or two and access points with a controller function

your isp router is good enough - place the wall wart access points in closets (they are not a decorating accessory except for those compensating for small antennas) - and decide on a network closet

never take advice from anyone that refers to 'the masses' 

or

just get the buick 

 

 

[upstatemike]

19 hours ago, Geddy said:

So what's your suggestion? Because nothing I've seen comes close to covering ALL the points you mention. Got to live with what's available.

Honestly, with U-verse DSL a router from 2010 would probably work well enough, but seems OP has exceeded a number of connected devices for most "home"/consumer grade routers even offered today. That's always been a big "gotcha" when adding wifi "smart" devices. 

Without really knowing more from the OP suggestions are just speculations and what might work for our own use. 

I don't have an answer... that is why this topic is interesting. I assume folks here are big Home Automation users so they face the same issues I do but maybe that is an incorrect assumption.

I have about 200 reserved IP addresses in my router (a Peplink Balance One) with maybe 170 devices online at any given time with a 50/50 split between wired and wireless clients.

I am surprised at the suggestion that you do not need to reserve addresses or that the router should not handle DHCP. With my router the DHCP table is what links the mac address to a device name and lets you group similiar devices into a specific IP range. I cannot picture troubleshooting my environment without this.

I am also surprised folks don't consider dual WAN important. I guess I have never lived anyplace where ISPs were so reliable that you don't need a backup; especially if you also work from home in addition to regular Home Automation and entertainment consumption.

I am  a little surprised that many Home Automation folks would use a single router instead of multiple access points. Even if you can cover your whole house from a single location, the number of wireless connections trying to talk to a single device would make it suboptimal.

I am also suprised there is not more concern about Sonos and other troublesome/special requirements type devices that are typical in HA environments, not only for entertainment but also commonly as the easiest path to TTS for platforms like Hubitat, Homeseer, and Home Assistant.

I am not looking to challenge any of the views here but rather trying to learn new things which I might be able to apply to my own situation so I am interested to see what solution the OP ends up with.

 

[lilyoyo1]

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I don't have an answer... that is why this topic is interesting. I assume folks here are big Home Automation users so they face the same issues I do but maybe that is an incorrect assumption.

I dont think you're incorrect. I think forums like this are hard to receive help from because there are so many variables at play with the folks here. Some are networking experts so they're more likely to provide complicated answers (simple to them)to people who are looking for simpler ways to accomplish things because they may not be as technically inclined.

Others may use their singular experience through trial and error which worked. This may make things simpler than they need to be or more complicated. 

You have others who simply use specific products for various reasons and that's what they stick with due to their experiences with those products such as myself. I'm far from a networking expert, but since I use Ubiquiti for my work, that would generally be my first recommendation. 

Then you have others who feel they are technical people because they read something online and will run with what they read and call themselves experts. 

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I have about 200 reserved IP addresses in my router (a Peplink Balance One) with maybe 170 devices online at any given time with a 50/50 split between wired and wireless clients.

I am surprised at the suggestion that you do not need to reserve addresses or that the router should not handle DHCP. With my router the DHCP table is what links the mac address to a device name and lets you group similiar devices into a specific IP range. I cannot picture troubleshooting my environment without this.

DHCP and reservations are things that i think are used/needed on an individual basis. Reservations aren't a bad thing. I reserve everything that connects to my automation system. Anything else I leave open as I don't care about the ip address being changed since it doesn't affect anything. I used to not do that at all but came home to a dark house because my hue bridge was issued a new ip address from my router so my ISY could no longer communicate with it. I learned a few lessons then that I still carry with me today. 

With DHCP, Its a time management thing for me. I'm not doing anything that makes me feel the need to manage my network at that level. 

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I am also surprised folks don't consider dual WAN important. I guess I have never lived anyplace where ISPs were so reliable that you don't need a backup; especially if you also work from home in addition to regular Home Automation and entertainment consumption.

Its hard to get dual wan in most areas simply because for many residential areas, there is only 1 provider. Besides that, most folks do not want to pay for multiple ISPs....I know I dont. I may worry about it more if I was in an area with bad service but living in the city has its perks....

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I am  a little surprised that many Home Automation folks would use a single router instead of multiple access points. Even if you can cover your whole house from a single location, the number of wireless connections trying to talk to a single device would make it suboptimal.

Since I use Ubiquiti, I have access points by default but do agree with you on this one. I don't use mesh systems like the Nest pods, eero, or Orbi. I know a few folks that have them and none talk about having issues with them. I think this is something that is based on individual environments. 

I know Larry talked about his experience with his VR. My Oculus 2 doesnt have any issues with my Ubiquiti but I also don't walk around the house wearing them for them to jump from one AP to another.

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I am also suprised there is not more concern about Sonos and other troublesome/special requirements type devices that are typical in HA environments, not only for entertainment but also commonly as the easiest path to TTS for platforms like Hubitat, Homeseer, and Home Assistant

What concerns are you referring to? All of my IOT devices are on their own network and cannot connect to any of my other networks. I can access them from my main network but they cannot access my main network nor our work networks. 

[upstatemike]

17 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

 

What concerns are you referring to? All of my IOT devices are on their own network and cannot connect to any of my other networks. I can access them from my main network but they cannot access my main network nor our work networks. 

In the case of Sonos they use an older version of the Spanning Tree protocol that is not commonly supported in new routers or if it is, it isn't configured by default. This is why Sonos encourages users to stick to unmanaged switches to minimize the chance of a Spanning Tree issue (network storms). Also I have heard nightmare stories of people trying to find the right combination of settings to get Sonos to play nice on UniFi systems where some never get it to be 100% reliable. I would love if someone here could say that this problem has been resolved and Ubiquity works perfectly with Sonos now.

[lilyoyo1]

13 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

In the case of Sonos they use an older version of the Spanning Tree protocol that is not commonly supported in new routers or if it is, it isn't configured by default. This is why Sonos encourages users to stick to unmanaged switches to minimize the chance of a Spanning Tree issue (network storms). Also I have heard nightmare stories of people trying to find the right combination of settings to get Sonos to play nice on UniFi systems where some never get it to be 100% reliable. I would love if someone here could say that this problem has been resolved and Ubiquity works perfectly with Sonos now.

I have and install Ubiquiti with Sonos. I haven't run into issues yet. Generally when I use amps they're hardwired while the speakers are wireless 

[RPerrault]

home networking and home automation are not as integrated as it might seem

insteon - z-wave - zigbigweeahatever

and home automation hobbyists are not especially welcoming of integrating them on some levels - evidenced by the visceral reaction to matter

and it might be that we are where we should be in home automation - can you imagine needing a cisco cert to set up a dimmer?    i think its a great idea (exploit existing resources - a network) but then i am not afraid of wireshark 

cruise control works on the buick - so does dhcp - use both - you will not improve anything with device reservations and it might explain the need for troubleshooting network problems - but the maintenance of assigning static addresses is the best reason to use it - i'd move it from a router because server based dhcp are more feature rich - people here are paranoid about 'running out of ip addresses' - then throw in a superscope - doubt an isp router handles that 

traffic is not traffic - if my attic dimmer was ip, turning it on and off 3 times a year impacts the network much less than streaming 4 hdtv tivo streams - downloading a netflicks movie is different from streaming live video - the number of devices has less impact on traffic as the type of traffic

prioritizing traffic is still a challenge but i assume it will become easier - dhcp did - and as the need arises on home networks, it will have to have an easy solution - few will want to add dscp markings and enable qos on ports of egress - for now, the bandwidth is sufficient and we can get away with allowing everyone to play best effort

dhcp - ip - not ethernet - if you are sending 'dim' from one pc to another on the same switch, that is ethernet - dhcp does what you are doing but does it automatically 

most are not willing to pay $100/month for a backup internet connection - especially when the backhoe that takes out your primary will probably take out your backup - i'd do a 5g with automatic failover - not sure about all ha systems but i do not need the internet for turning off a light - if you do, you might want to revisit that (that story about amazon shutting down a house does not add up - if it did happen, the guy made some bad decisions)

this house has 4 sonos sound bars with subs and sonos one surrounds - 3 sonos one stereo setups and 7 single sonos ones - works great - even grouped in party mode - i am unsure how they do it (multicast?) but audio traffic is not as impacting as you might think - problems with sonos could be addressed with prioritizing that traffic - not unlike voip jitter problems

not sure what 'special requirements' are - if a device has them, i don't want them on my network

wifi is misunderstood - lots of theories, guesses and misguided self evident truths - its more complex than 'adding another access point' - i won't go into all that now - but i will say that a home router wifi might be perfectly adequate for some people - and when you ask those that claim they need more, you never get any evidence of the need - its back to guessing and faulty 'self evident truths' 

i am only familiar with cisco's prime when it comes to monitoring tools - but those heatmaps can teach you a lot about wifi - other manufacturers will have that someday

don't apologize for participating or challenging - there is no offense taken

until you start hating on buicks

 

[upstatemike]

7 minutes ago, RPerrault said:

 

this house has 4 sonos sound bars with subs and sonos one surrounds - 3 sonos one stereo setups and 7 single sonos ones - works great - even grouped in party mode - i am unsure how they do it (multicast?) but audio traffic is not as impacting as you might think - problems with sonos could be addressed with prioritizing that traffic - not unlike voip jitter problems

not sure what 'special requirements' are - if a device has them, i don't want them on my network

 

 

Problems I have seen was when I connected too many Sonos Amps via ethernet and got some traffic loops with data going both wired and wireless (Spanning Tree issue). I have also tried using a single ethernet connection and everything else on SonosNet which solved that problem but created new challenges with range and interferance.

[RPerrault]

isnt stp a function of the router?  or maybe switch since so many functions have been moved or shared

 

[lilyoyo1]

28 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Problems I have seen was when I connected too many Sonos Amps via ethernet and got some traffic loops with data going both wired and wireless (Spanning Tree issue). I have also tried using a single ethernet connection and everything else on SonosNet which solved that problem but created new challenges with range and interferance.

I haven't had those issues in my home. I have 4amps, 1 Arc, 1 beam, 1 sub, 1 sub mini, a three, five, 2-ones, and 2-100s. None have skipped a beat. The amps, soundbars, and 5 are all hardwired while the rest are wireless. Whether separately or together, I've been able to use them together in groups without issue.