z-wave groups, scenes and associations

RPerrault · November 3, 2023

i set up my eisy using 5.6.4

just updated to 5.7.0

i only use z-wave for water detection, smoke/co2 detectors and blinds

i have 4 repeaters installed

i want to have 3 blinds open or close at the same time - these are iblinds z-wave motors

they install to the eisy as either of these two device types

image.png.8b4194d6b40ea7ef0c675dc5a2d596f0.png image.png.6faea63b3ef0f1ea55a22d684b1b1e3b.png

Z-Wave Command Classes

iblinds Supported Command Classes – cc:5E,85,59,86,72,5A,73,26,25,80,70
Command Class Association Group Info V2
Command Class Association V2
Command Class Basic V2
Command Class Battery
Command Class Device Reset Locally
Command Class Manufacturer Specific V2
Command Class Powerlevel
Command Class Switch Binary
Command Class Switch Multilevel V4
Command Class Version V2
Command Class Z-Wave+ Info V2

iblinds V2 Product Details
Z-Wave Specific Device Type: Window Covering – Endpoint and Position Aware, CLASS_B_MOTOR_CONTROL Z-Wave Generic Device Type: Multilevel Switch
Z-Wave Role Type: Listening Sleeping Slave
Manufacturer ID: 0287
Product Type ID: 0x0003
Product ID: 0x000D

and

Z-Wave Command Classes

SWITCH_BINARY	SUPERVISION
ASSOCIATION V2	FIRMWARE UPDATE MD V5
ASSOSCIATION GROUP INFO	BATTERY
TRANSPORT SERVICE V2	MULTILEVEL SWITCH
VERSION V2	CONFIGURATION
MANUFACTURER SPECIFIC	INDICATOR V3
DEVICE RESET LOCALLY	Z-WAVE PLUS INFO V2
POWERLEVEL	MULTI CHANNEL ASSOCIATION V3
SECURITY V2	WINDOW COVERING V1

iblinds V3 Product Details
Z-Wave Specific Device Type: Window Covering – Endpoint and Position Aware, CLASS_C_MOTOR_CONTROL
Z-Wave Generic Device Type: Multilevel Switch
Z-Wave Role Type: Listening Sleeping Slave
Manufacturer ID: 0287
Product Type ID: 0x0004
Product ID: 0x0071, 0x0072

reading this

https://www.vesternet.com/en-us/pages/z-wave-groups-scenes-associations

i should be able to use a group to open/close all 3 blinds with one command

i have individual blinds in an insteon scene with a keypad button and that seems to work

adding 3 blinds to an insteon scene does not

the blinds will open /close with alexa

the manufacturer said it should work, depending on the controller

i have not seen a direct answer here when asked about setting up associations, groups or z-wave scenes - other than 'if it supports it there will be an option in the drop down menu in the scene' - and not sure anyone has seen that on any device

x-ray node definition

associations

All Assocations for node 66 (0x42)

Assocation version=2 groups=1
| Group 1 : max=1 [01]

device object

Z-Wave Database for uid=66.0 (0x42.00)
Isy Primary Node: id=226 addr=[ZY066_1]
ZW-Type: 4.17.0 (0x04.0x11.0x00)
Mfg Specific: mid=647 tid=3 pid=13
ZWave+ RoleType=0 NodeType=0
Flags: initialized=T agi=F alwaysAwake=F
Security: No Security

--- 12 Command Classes ---
32 x20 V2 I S BASIC
37 x25 V2 I S SWITCH_BINARY
38 x26 V4 I S SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
89 x59 V2 I S ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
90 x5a V1 I S DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
94 x5e V2 I S ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
112 x70 V0 I S CONFIGURATION
114 x72 V2 I S MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
115 x73 V1 I S POWERLEVEL
128 x80 V1 I S BATTERY
133 x85 V2 I S ASSOCIATION
134 x86 V2 I S VERSION

--- 2 AGI ---
grp= 1 cc=0x80.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 BATTERY
grp= 1 cc=0x5A.01 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY

--- Status Map (3 records) ---
[ 0] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL recId=1 sgid=119 ST uom=51 prec=0 namemap=27 | min=0 max=101
[ 1] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY recId=1 sgid=147 ST uom=78 prec=0 namemap=0 | predef=2
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY recId=1 sgid=119 BATLVL uom=51 prec=0 namemap=0 | min=0 max=100

--- Control Map (0 records) ---

--- Responder Map (10 records) ---
[ 0] sgid=119 ASSOC ASSOC (1, 1)
[ 1] sgid=119 ASSOC ASSOC_MC (1, 51)
[ 2] sgid=119 BASIC BASIC (2, 2)
[ 3] sgid=119 BASIC BASIC_MC (2, 52)
[ 4] sgid=147 BSW BSW (3, 3)
[ 5] sgid=147 BSW BSW_MC (3, 53)
[ 6] sgid=119 MLSW MLSW (4, 4)
[ 7] sgid=119 MLSW MLSW_MC (4, 54)
[ 8] sgid=259 SCENE SCENE_RSP (5, 6)
[ 9] sgid=259 SCENE SCENE_RSP_MC (5, 56)

--- Status Callbacks ---
[ 0] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY id=0 path="level"
[ 1] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL id=0 path="level"
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY id=0 path="last"

--- Control Callbacks ---

device/channel database object

Z-Wave Database for uid=66.0 (0x42.00)
Isy Primary Node: id=226 addr=[ZY066_1]
ZW-Type: 4.17.0 (0x04.0x11.0x00)
Mfg Specific: mid=647 tid=3 pid=13
ZWave+ RoleType=0 NodeType=0
Flags: initialized=T agi=F alwaysAwake=F
Security: No Security

--- 12 Command Classes ---
32 x20 V2 I S BASIC
37 x25 V2 I S SWITCH_BINARY
38 x26 V4 I S SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
89 x59 V2 I S ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
90 x5a V1 I S DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
94 x5e V2 I S ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
112 x70 V0 I S CONFIGURATION
114 x72 V2 I S MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
115 x73 V1 I S POWERLEVEL
128 x80 V1 I S BATTERY
133 x85 V2 I S ASSOCIATION
134 x86 V2 I S VERSION

--- 2 AGI ---
grp= 1 cc=0x80.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 BATTERY
grp= 1 cc=0x5A.01 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY

--- Status Map (3 records) ---
[ 0] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL recId=1 sgid=119 ST uom=51 prec=0 namemap=27 | min=0 max=101
[ 1] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY recId=1 sgid=147 ST uom=78 prec=0 namemap=0 | predef=2
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY recId=1 sgid=119 BATLVL uom=51 prec=0 namemap=0 | min=0 max=100

--- Control Map (0 records) ---

--- Responder Map (10 records) ---
[ 0] sgid=119 ASSOC ASSOC (1, 1)
[ 1] sgid=119 ASSOC ASSOC_MC (1, 51)
[ 2] sgid=119 BASIC BASIC (2, 2)
[ 3] sgid=119 BASIC BASIC_MC (2, 52)
[ 4] sgid=147 BSW BSW (3, 3)
[ 5] sgid=147 BSW BSW_MC (3, 53)
[ 6] sgid=119 MLSW MLSW (4, 4)
[ 7] sgid=119 MLSW MLSW_MC (4, 54)
[ 8] sgid=259 SCENE SCENE_RSP (5, 6)
[ 9] sgid=259 SCENE SCENE_RSP_MC (5, 56)

--- Status Callbacks ---
[ 0] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY id=0 path="level"
[ 1] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL id=0 path="level"
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY id=0 path="last"

--- Control Callbacks ---

are these devices installing correctly?

how can i create a group with all 3 blinds to respond to an open/close command from my eisy?

RPerrault · November 7, 2023

should have done lutron

brians · November 8, 2023

Why don't you make a program that opens/closes them all at the same time?

RPerrault · November 8, 2023

its z-wave - each command is slow and waits for nack/ack - tried lots of things

if i could assign the devices to a common association group, one command to that group should operate all the devices at one time

but i cannot find a way in the eisy to assign devices to a association group

when a discussion gets close to asking, the thread is ghosted and closed

thought i'd try the direct question

incidentally - i can create an eisy scene and add the z-wave blind - add a keypad button - and it works - and it works with alexa

gets more complicated with 3 blinds with one button

these are opened/closed at sunrise/sunset - rarely any other way - you have to add a 5-8 second delay between z-wave commands

but still - association groups are the closest thing to insteon scenes - and i suspect lots of people here would pee their panties if we could implement them - lots of people want virtual 3-way switches and this should accomplish that for them

the web link above is the easiest explanation of associations, groups and scenes in the z-wave world that i have found

i contacted the iblinds seller and he said the blinds had the capability - and should work IF the controller can handle it - so i posted the specs of how the devices install and the command sets the devices support - and some of the xray screen shots of how they installed on my eisy

i don't see any way to do it in the eisy unless it is setting some parameters'

i suspect it does not support it - which is why the replies stop

i also suspect others have other controllers then swap controllers to primary or use zooz sticks then transfer - none of which i an interested in doing

i have resisted a deep dive into z-wave - and so far been successful

be nice to have an answer without having to learn the internals of z-wave - if i understand it correctly, z-wave is not an open system and could be why people are not free to discuss it online

Bumbershoot · November 8, 2023

I really doubt I can help you here (it's been a long time since I did this), but I still use associations for some Z-Wave lights in a bathroom.

One of the dimmers controls two others (these are Zooz Zen77 dimmers). You have to put all the devices in a scene in your eISY, and one of the devices has to be the controller. You need to put the "Basic Association" nodes you want (sometimes there is more than one - in my case I have one for on/off and one for dimming) of the controlling device into the scene as controllers, and then the other devices as responders. See screenshots.

This seems to be mostly reliable (on/off is reliable, but dimming is a bit hit or miss). It's not as seamless as an Insteon scene by any means. I believe the devices have to be in close proximity to one another for this to work, and the devices talk directly to one another, not through your ISY software.

RPerrault · November 8, 2023

aha - huge step forward

how did you get the association set up - that caused the entry names 'basic assoc 2' or 3

peterathans · November 8, 2023

I've been experimenting with Zwave basic associations using on/off switches, and yes there is a way to do it, but your device has to support it. When you add a device, if associations are supported, you should get one of the "Basic Assoc" nodes shown above, and these are what you use to directly link multiple devices in a group.

RPerrault · November 8, 2023

i asked the device manufacturer before starting this thread. and seeing little help here. this is what they said:

iBlidns supports Associaton, but there is a catch: the Associated controlling device needs to support beaming (have the ability to send a special command to wake up the iblidns motor). It's also important that the Z-Wave hub follows the correct process when making the Z-Wave associations. We've noticed that most hubs don't.

Here's an article written by Dr.Zwave: https://drzwave.blog/2021/02/01/controlling-flirs-via-associations/

the cited article is a little over my head, but it seems that if supporting the 'flirs' is part of the standard but not supported here. i am thinking that my step 1 is getting any kind of association set up. i see where others have done it here but they have an option under the dropdown menu (when in an insteon scene) for some z-wave options. nothing on my system has any z-wave option. which is why i posted the manufactures specs on what it should support and the xrays on how the iesy did install. i was hoping that might identify if the devices are installing correctly.

that was the way my pointy head reasoned out the problem.

i don't use much z-wave but before i began, installed 4 repeaters. aeotec v6. ordered the same brand in v7 so i can rule out z-wave versions as being a problem. they should arrive tomorrow.

thanks for the reply

RPerrault · November 8, 2023

it would be interesting to know what command class supports associations - and what z-wave version - and what device types

then if it supports the beam or flirs or wakeup call to the device

then its on to return routes

i think the article on that uses a zooz software (controller and zooz usb radio) which would be z-wave centered - notsomuch with the eisy

RPerrault · November 10, 2023

looks like my first step is to find out why my devices install without the additional entries for association

image.png.a777b2321155920d84b7b35670c54128.png

during the include (or 'interview'), what needs to be passed to the eisy for it to add those entries?

RPerrault · November 19, 2023

thanks @brians for reporting his research

replaced my repeaters

ordered a zooz s2 stick

downloaded silabs simplicity studio

The current in-force specification package for certification is available here.

hopefully - set up zooz stick with simplicity studio - include zooz into iesy z-wave network

and that will import the devices into the pc controller

set up group associations on the pc

export those changes to the eisy

control that group from the eisy

GJ Software Products · November 19, 2023

16 hours ago, RPerrault said:

thanks @brians for reporting his research

replaced my repeaters

ordered a zooz s2 stick

downloaded silabs simplicity studio

The current in-force specification package for certification is available here.

hopefully - set up zooz stick with simplicity studio - include zooz into iesy z-wave network

and that will import the devices into the pc controller

set up group associations on the pc

export those changes to the eisy

control that group from the eisy

I'll be interested on how this works for you. Even more so on how you include the Zooz stick into the eisy z-wave network. Will Simplicity Studio let you put the Zooz stick in Association mode that you can discover with eisy? Then once the HomeIDs are aligned it sounds like you're going to use Simplicity Studio to reach into the z-wave device without having to use IoX? I wish I had a Development platform to play with, all I've got is Production running my entire house so I hate to screw anything up. Epically on a Sunday! <lol>

RPerrault · November 20, 2023

reading this again

its obvious that ud does not install most z-wave devices correctly - though they will never comment on it - and do not want to get into associations and groups and scenes

i plan to set up the pc controller - add it to the eisy - set up the associations and test

then do another 'interview' on the eisy and see if it picks up the associations and creates a resource to control that group of associations from the eisy

then - to push my luck - set up an insteon scene with the blinds and a keypad button to control the blinds - then - get really greedy - and expose it to alexa

i have one need for z-wave associations or groups or scenes - to open/close 3 blinds with one command - if i needed more than that, i would not do it - unless i accepted the fact that all the z-wave stuff would have to be documented carefully and set up/modified from the pc controller

if i used mostly z-wave, i'd get a different controller and not use the eisy

i am not interested in the basic association that does not involve a controller like the eisy - i want to control it from the eisy - there are other associations where the controller is involved and the devices do not have to be in range of each other

it might require setting up a return route if the eisy does not send a wakeup before the command to control the device - adding the return route does that - i can set up that return route with the pc controller - however - i doubt the eisy 're-interview' would know about the return route - or what to do with it if it does know about it - so a wakeup might not flow from the eisy

the pc controller has a sniffer capability so i can probably see what it is and is not sending

GJ Software Products · November 20, 2023

I broke down & added the PC Controller to the eisy z-wave network but it didn't populate with the existing z-wave devices on the matter dongle. Maybe I didn't wait long enough? Please post if you get it to work.

RPerrault · November 20, 2023

this is what @brians did

from the thread i posted above

image.png.df836adcca202653280ddd7cc4089da3.png

GJ Software Products · November 20, 2023

@RPerrault Ahhh.. Thanks. I just tried Classic and haven't read up on Select...

peterathans · November 20, 2023

Thanks everyone for your extensive research on this.

If you can find a way to get Group 2 Associations working using the Zooz stick, we should present this to UD (as their promise was to have associations working under eisy or Polisy the same way). I too suspect there's something missing in their application.

RPerrault · November 22, 2023

got my xoox s2 stick 700 today

connected it to my pc - opened silamb pc controller (tools - z-wave pc controller) - associated the stick with the pc controller

opened eisy - opened event viewer (3 - device communications events)

network management - select learn mode (button) - nwi (button)

eisy - z-wave - add a z-wave device

got this

these are the devices listed in my eisy

image.png.f84a73c0e3c6b9ea3261604f21bc97f3.png

note the zy 074 controller entry was added to the eisy

the eisy is the primary controller - pc controller is secondary

this is what was added to the pc controller

image.png.2fe376ca783e6fcb4f22e0e77e4b48c7.png

in the pc controller - the node info for the eisy

image.png.3f61b4a611e30557f99aa25a8991a94c.png

in the pc controller - the node info for the pc controller itself

image.png.0ad3f3b31a8477b2c47badb7a7c0e336.png

interesting

RPerrault · November 22, 2023

turning to the 3 blinds i want to group - device numbers 62, 63 and 64

focusing on one device - 62

eisy xray - device /channel database object

Z-Wave Database for uid=62.0 (0x3e.00)
Isy Primary Node: id=426 addr=[ZY062_1]
ZW-Type: 4.17.7 (0x04.0x11.0x07)
Mfg Specific: mid=647 tid=4 pid=114
ZWave+ RoleType=0 NodeType=0
Flags: initialized=T agi=F alwaysAwake=F
Security: S0 S2Unauth

--- 18 Command Classes ---
32 x20 V2 I S Sec BASIC
37 x25 V2 I S Sec SWITCH_BINARY
38 x26 V4 I S Sec SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
85 x55 V2 I S TRANSPORT_SERVICE
89 x59 V3 I S Sec ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
90 x5a V1 I S Sec DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
94 x5e V2 I S ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
108 x6c V1 I S SUPERVISION
112 x70 V4 I S Sec CONFIGURATION
114 x72 V2 I S Sec MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
115 x73 V1 I S Sec POWERLEVEL
122 x7a V5 I S Sec FIRMWARE_UPDATE_MD
128 x80 V1 I S Sec BATTERY
133 x85 V2 I S Sec ASSOCIATION
134 x86 V3 I S Sec VERSION
135 x87 V3 I S Sec INDICATOR
142 x8e V3 I S Sec MULTI_CHANNEL_ASSOCIATION
159 x9f V1 I S Sec SECURITY_2

--- 6 AGI ---
grp= 1 cc=0x80.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 BATTERY
grp= 1 cc=0x5A.01 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
grp= 1 cc=0x71.05 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 NOTIFICATION
grp= 1 cc=0x25.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 SWITCH_BINARY
grp= 1 cc=0x26.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
grp= 1 cc=0x6A.04 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 WINDOW_COVERING

--- Status Map (3 records) ---
[ 0] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL recId=1 sgid=107 ST uom=51 prec=0 namemap=27 | min=0 max=101
[ 1] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY recId=1 sgid=147 ST uom=78 prec=0 namemap=0 | predef=2
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY recId=1 sgid=107 BATLVL uom=51 prec=0 namemap=0 | min=0 max=100

--- Control Map (0 records) ---

--- Responder Map (18 records) ---
[ 0] sgid=107 ASSOC ASSOC_S2UN (1, 41)
[ 1] sgid=107 ASSOC ASSOC_MC_S2UN (1, 91)
[ 2] sgid=107 BASIC BASIC_S2UN (2, 42)
[ 3] sgid=107 BASIC BASIC_MC_S2UN (2, 92)
[ 4] sgid=147 BSW BSW_S2UN (3, 43)
[ 5] sgid=147 BSW BSW_MC_S2UN (3, 93)
[ 6] sgid=107 MLSW MLSW_S2UN (4, 44)
[ 7] sgid=107 MLSW MLSW_MC_S2UN (4, 94)
[ 8] sgid=107 ASSOC ASSOC_S0 (1, 11)
[ 9] sgid=107 ASSOC ASSOC_MC_S0 (1, 61)
[10] sgid=107 BASIC BASIC_S0 (2, 12)
[11] sgid=107 BASIC BASIC_MC_S0 (2, 62)
[12] sgid=147 BSW BSW_S0 (3, 13)
[13] sgid=147 BSW BSW_MC_S0 (3, 63)
[14] sgid=107 MLSW MLSW_S0 (4, 14)
[15] sgid=107 MLSW MLSW_MC_S0 (4, 64)
[16] sgid=107 ASSOC ASSOC (1, 1)
[17] sgid=107 ASSOC ASSOC_MC (1, 51)

--- Status Callbacks ---
[ 0] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY id=0 path="level"
[ 1] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL id=0 path="level"
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY id=0 path="last"

--- Control Callbacks ---

pc controller shows

image.png.b605f0b454c5071d3e494d6f18872de7.png

the device specs from the manufacturer

SWITCH_BINARY	SUPERVISION
ASSOCIATION V2	FIRMWARE UPDATE MD V5
ASSOSCIATION GROUP INFO	BATTERY
TRANSPORT SERVICE V2	MULTILEVEL SWITCH
VERSION V2	CONFIGURATION
MANUFACTURER SPECIFIC	INDICATOR V3
DEVICE RESET LOCALLY	Z-WAVE PLUS INFO V2
POWERLEVEL	MULTI CHANNEL ASSOCIATION V3
SECURITY V2	WINDOW COVERING V1

note that the associations classes (and others) are missing in the pc controller (the devices are added to the pc controller by querying the eisy - not by 'interviewing' or adding each device by having the pc controller querying the devices themselves)

secondary controllers are not allowed to add devices (unless you set specific parameters that i am unfamiliar with)

i have been looking for a way to have the pc controller 'interview' the devices to see if it added the command classes the device supports - no success as yet

and looking for a way to modify the command classes of devices in the pc controller - no success yet

it would be interesting to undo the connection and add one of the devices (i have some new ones) to the pc controller with the pc controller as primary - might have to do that

as i understand it, in the pc controller i can set up or modify associations (main menu - associations tile) - that window lists nothing eligible for associations (not surprising since the eisy did not return those command classes to the pc controller)

i have repeaters, water detectors, smoke/co2 detectors and these blind motors - that is it - not one listed as association eligible in the pc controller

the silabs tool has a z-wave sniffer - i'll look into running the sniffer as the eisy is adding the pc controller and sending the device information - that will tell me if the pc controller is not asking for all the info - or if the eisy is not sending the info

pages 62 and 63 of this guide

https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/user-guides/INS13114.pdf

detail what primary and secondary controllers are allowed to do

this is interesting - the blind motors i an working with are their newest - version 3 - i have a couple of their version 2 devices - and here is the info in the pc controller for the older devices

image.png.b6fa2938d73ba4bfb75274c5c713a1bf.png

association command classes are there (you evidently have to select the node info button to populate the info)

and now they are on the associations panel of the pc controller

image.png.a25a6f5c7b1a69418d945ce40100e291.png

that node info query is issued from the pc controller stick

the eisy xray of device/channel database object of device 58 (old motor version)

Z-Wave Database for uid=58.0 (0x3a.00)
Isy Primary Node: id=419 addr=[ZY058_1]
ZW-Type: 4.17.0 (0x04.0x11.0x00)
Mfg Specific: mid=647 tid=3 pid=13
ZWave+ RoleType=0 NodeType=0
Flags: initialized=T agi=F alwaysAwake=F
Security: No Security

--- 12 Command Classes ---
32 x20 V2 I S BASIC
37 x25 V2 I S SWITCH_BINARY
38 x26 V4 I S SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
89 x59 V2 I S ASSOCIATION_GROUP_INFO
90 x5a V1 I S DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
94 x5e V2 I S ZWAVEPLUS_INFO
112 x70 V0 I S CONFIGURATION
114 x72 V2 I S MANUFACTURER_SPECIFIC
115 x73 V1 I S POWERLEVEL
128 x80 V1 I S BATTERY
133 x85 V2 I S ASSOCIATION
134 x86 V2 I S VERSION

--- 2 AGI ---
grp= 1 cc=0x80.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 BATTERY
grp= 1 cc=0x5A.01 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY

--- Status Map (3 records) ---
[ 0] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL recId=1 sgid=119 ST uom=51 prec=0 namemap=27 | min=0 max=101
[ 1] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY recId=1 sgid=147 ST uom=78 prec=0 namemap=0 | predef=2
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY recId=1 sgid=119 BATLVL uom=51 prec=0 namemap=0 | min=0 max=100

--- Control Map (0 records) ---

--- Responder Map (10 records) ---
[ 0] sgid=119 ASSOC ASSOC (1, 1)
[ 1] sgid=119 ASSOC ASSOC_MC (1, 51)
[ 2] sgid=119 BASIC BASIC (2, 2)
[ 3] sgid=119 BASIC BASIC_MC (2, 52)
[ 4] sgid=147 BSW BSW (3, 3)
[ 5] sgid=147 BSW BSW_MC (3, 53)
[ 6] sgid=119 MLSW MLSW (4, 4)
[ 7] sgid=119 MLSW MLSW_MC (4, 54)
[ 8] sgid=259 SCENE SCENE_RSP (5, 6)
[ 9] sgid=259 SCENE SCENE_RSP_MC (5, 56)

--- Status Callbacks ---
[ 0] 0x25/SWITCH_BINARY id=0 path="level"
[ 1] 0x26/SWITCH_MULTILEVEL id=0 path="level"
[ 2] 0x80/BATTERY id=0 path="last"

--- Control Callbacks ---

i'll investigate the difference when the device adds specific device class 0x07 instead of 0x00

and here is a thought - i think the security has to be the same level for this crap to work - i'll investigate that rabbit hole too

after that - i'll have to look into setting a return route - but it will have to be to the eisy radio - not the pc controller radio - i think that can be done with the pc controller - from what i think i know now

interesting - database object for new devices (that show fewer command classes and no association capability

--- 6 AGI ---
grp= 1 cc=0x80.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 BATTERY
grp= 1 cc=0x5A.01 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY
grp= 1 cc=0x71.05 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 NOTIFICATION
grp= 1 cc=0x25.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 SWITCH_BINARY
grp= 1 cc=0x26.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
grp= 1 cc=0x6A.04 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=5 /5 WINDOW_COVERING

and the older device

--- 2 AGI ---
grp= 1 cc=0x80.03 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 BATTERY
grp= 1 cc=0x5A.01 profile=0x00.01 maxRsp=1 /1 DEVICE_RESET_LOCALLY

note that window_covering is missing from the older devices

from the z-wave alliance specifications book linked way above

2.2.16 Basic Window Covering Command Class, version 1 [OBSOLETED]
Warning: THIS COMMAND CLASS HAS BEEN OBSOLETED
New implementations MUST NOT support this command class.
New window covering device implementations SHOULD support the Window Covering Command
Class, version 1.

however - there is a new window covering command class

2.2.117 Window Covering Command Class, version 1
The Window Covering Command Class is used to control window covering devices.
The Window Covering Command Class is an actuator control command class. Refer to Section 2.1.6.
2.2.117.1 Terminology
A window covering device may be closed or open. The term closed represents the lowest light throughput,
while open represents the highest light throughput.
A window covering device may provide one or more properties such as up/down movement combined
with for example slats angle control.
Each of the available properties is advertised. A window covering device may offer precise control of
the position of a property or it may offer a more limited movement control, where it is possible to
start and stop movement in one of two directions but where the target position cannot be specified.
If a window covering parameter is marked as position unknown, this indicates that the actual property
can only be controlled via start and stop of movement.
The parameters controlling edges are identified as outlined in Table 2.529.

neither is listed in any of the queries as a command class so its probably not a problem

RPerrault · November 22, 2023

the really good news is i don't know unix - got as far as grep and decided that cleaning bathrooms was more fun

RPerrault · November 22, 2023

notes to self

hmmm - agi - looks like that is association group information

listed in the command classes for the older devices (in pc controller) (that do show up in the pc controller on the associations tile) but not the newer devices

looks like there might be an import problem between the pc controller and the eisy

installing a blind motor on a virgin pc controller would be interesting - but that is a lotta work - sigh

altering the pc controller as it is now to allow installs to the secondary is iffy - those portable device are to be wirelessly connected - but pc controller has it listed - i'd have to bone up on how it works before screwing with that

the new devices show the command class for window covering v1 but the eisy does not show that

all the stuff about installing devices 'close to the eisy' is crap - install it where it will reside

GJ Software Products · November 22, 2023

@RPerrault Good stuff! Maybe when I retire (5 yr.) I'll have time to dig this deep. <lol> I'm way interested in your discoveries!

MMAltair · November 24, 2023

I read through this thread with great interest since I have new Bali Z-Wave shades and was planning to connect them to EISY/Zmatter. I purchased the Bali ZWave controller and have the shades connected to it currently but would like the additional flexibility/control that EISY provides. Here are my observations on how things work with the Bali ZWave controller -

- Using the Bali Zwave controller with their App there is no way to group shades together for simultaneous control. The App allows you to control each shade individually where they each move independently. Moving the shades to an end point is not a problem since they will all end up at the end point eventually. You can also have the shades go to an intermediate point although this is not a precise point since it is controlled by a slider for each shade.

- I connected the controller to Alexa which works fine but is similar to controlling the shades with the App. To get the Shades to all move as a group I have to add each shade as a separate Action in the associated Alexa Routine. When the Alexa voice command is issued each shade (in my case 4) start moving at different points in time and eventually go to the same end point. It looks a bit weird while moving. Alexa routines do allow you to specify a % open which works quite well. The Bali App does not allow a % (just an approximate slider position for each shade).

- I also purchased the premium remote with the shades and it has different behavior than the Gateway/App. The instructions are very explicit that when you add the remote it has to be added after all of the shades have been added (paired) to the Controller/Hub. The process for adding the remote is to first pair it with the ZWave controller/Hub and then pair it separately with each shade. Once each shade has been paired with the remote you can then create "Channels" in the remote to "associate" shades into groups. The remote then issues commands to individual channels where all shades move and stop synchronously. In my case I have 10 shades and 3 channels, 2 channels of 4 and 1 channel of 2 shades.

Based on RPerrault's description of ZWave Association, I suspect the remote is being added to each shade as a secondary controller which supports the ZWave association function. I also suspect the ZWave ControlIer/Hub does not support the Association function since no grouping of shades is possible in the Bali App. I should add that you can purchase the shades without the ZWave controller and only use a remote to control them. In this case it is likely that the remote is the primary ZWave controller and still includes the Association function.

At this point I haven't decided if I will transition the Shades to EISY based on the experience RPerrault described in this thread. I'm well aware that I can write programs to create the virtual groups Scenes) of shades but with the underlying problem of issuing commands over a spaced out interval of time. If I decide to give it a try I'll report back on the status.

RPerrault · November 24, 2023

it could be that the interview process is not completing when including the device on the eisy (but for all the newer devices?)

from https://z-wave.me/files/manual/z-way/Introduction.html#

"The interview process does not only detect all information from the device; it also tests the connectivity of the device. Certain communication may fail. Another good reason for such a failure is that a battery-operated device goes into deep sleep mode too fast. ... In most cases, it’s OK to just redo the interview and wake up the device.

If the second attempt at the interview fails, the controllers gives the option to accept the result or to redo the entire process."

i suspect the eisy makes the decision for us and does not notify if the process does not completely finish - just a thought on why all the command classes are not present

ok - so where do we get the info from the interview? the device returns some device type info that determines what command classes the device supports

the eisy shows all the command classes for the newer blind motor - all agree with the manufacturer's claim except one

window covering v1

but -

"Window Covering Generic Device Class (Not recommended)

NOTICE: It is not RECOMMENDED to use this generic device class for new devices. Instead, it is RECOMMENDED to base devices of this category on the Multi-level switch generic device class with the Multi-position Motor specific device class."

and it seems the eisy does use the multilevel switch to control the blinds, as recommended

it looks like the eisy knows all the command classes from the devices - the pc controller does not (it got the info from the eisy - not from its own interview with the devices)

the device information is sent to the pc controller when you include it to the eisy - the information is correct for the older blind motors, but not the new

the eisy is not interested in helping us with associations and groups and scenes - which is why i thought i could set up those from the pc controller - but the correct command classes are not present in the pc controller - the pc controller does NOT have the newer motors as eligible for associations because the command classes are not there - it DOES show the older motors as eligible but those are not the ones i want to group together

RPerrault · November 25, 2023

so what about the posts on having a drop down menu selection for z-wave associations

"Please see @mmb's image above, note the dropdown with Default. For each device in a scene, you will see at least Default and Command. Now, click on the switches within the scene, in the picture above ZW_024. You will see the same dropdown. Now, if the switch supports Z-Wave scenes, you will see Z-Wave Scene in the drop down (but this is rare). If the device supports it, you will also see Z-Wave Association (much more prevalent). In short, if and only if your device supports it, you should use either Z-Wave Scene or Z-Wave Association. If your device does not support it, you will not see those options."

i have both older and newer blinds motors in scenes - neither show the z-wave associations option - i suspect the only devices that DO have that option are sensors - even though other devices do support associations

even so, i don't understand why that option would be there because i don't see a way to set up associations in the eisy - or maybe selecting that option sets up the association (i doubt that) - i also wonder what selecting that option would do if it is present

back to my plan - to set up the association outside the eisy - then on the eisy, interview with update - since the pc controller does not show the motors as eligible for association, that won't happen (it does not know about the correct command classes sent from the eisy)

in the pc controller

older devices

image.png.fe3b5063335f850409205c2ed05ca3bb.png

newer devices

image.png.41c49d92887bfbe1d824aec6cb48f2ca.png

or maybe the pc controller builds its own command class list from the device classes

i don't see a way to modify the command class list for devices in the pc controller (to add the missing command classes for the newer motors)

might have to look into the z-way tool

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