Release 5.9.1 discussion

[paulbates]

DHCP or RA (router advertisement), the address has to be provided from somewhere.

[brians]

Every device has an IPv6 link local address. derived from MAC address with prefix fe80. Matter can use this.
 

[oberkc]

2 hours ago, paulbates said:

My understanding is that your internet router needs to provide local IPV6 addressing for Matter devices to work.

As far as I can tell, my router is still using IPv4 addresses (192.168.0.xxx).  The does not seem to affect my google nest and echo hub from being able to connect to matter devices (but these devices seem to loose connection to the hub and nest after some time).  I think I have the IPv6 option selected on the router (netgear orbi) but I may not have enough knowledge to determine whether there are other addresses, public, private, or otherwise.

[Guy Lavoie]

I also tried adding a Matter device with a GE Cync bulb. QR code gives the same "500" error. But as an IP device, how does something like a new bulb fresh out of the box get access to my network? Seems it needs network access first. Is the Matter inclusion app doing some kind of UPNP scan? That aspect of it isn't clear.

Another thing is about those QR codes themselves. It's just a sticker on the bulb that easily falls off. If you lose it, I can't see how it could be recovered, unless there is some kind of network scanning app that could look for valid devices. At minimum, we'll need to write down the digits (xxxx-yyy-zzzz) that seem to form every Matter pairing code, so we can at least regenerate the QR code if needed again.

[larryllix]

Write the text down in the QR code on the side of the bulb.

I write the MAC address on the side of all my WiFi bulbs.

[GHenry]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

I write the MAC address on the side of all my WiFi bulbs.

I also write the date any bulb (not just WiFi) entered service (also for batteries!).

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, Guy Lavoie said:

I also tried adding a Matter device with a GE Cync bulb. QR code gives the same "500" error. But as an IP device, how does something like a new bulb fresh out of the box get access to my network? Seems it needs network access first. Is the Matter inclusion app doing some kind of UPNP scan? That aspect of it isn't clear.

I agree...it is not intuitive to me.  I tried adding it directly with UDMobile scan.  Error.  I then added it to nest hub (worked) and shared it with Alexa echo hub (worked).  Unlike the Echo, google home can share connected matter devices via a generated QR code (Alexa can share only with a numeric code.). When I use UDMobile to scan the QR code generated by Nest Hub: Error.  I also notice that the nest hub app only generates a code with the android version.  And iOS version of UDMobile is not quite ready, I understand.  This means that to do all that I tried one needs to have two android devices in order to share a matter device with ISY.  I keep hoping I am missing something.

I am glad I am not anxious to get a matter device to work.  As far as I can tell, matter is not ready for prime time.

[Guy Lavoie]

3 hours ago, oberkc said:

I agree...it is not intuitive to me.  I tried adding it directly with UDMobile scan.  Error.  I then added it to nest hub (worked) and shared it with Alexa echo hub (worked).  Unlike the Echo, google home can share connected matter devices via a generated QR code (Alexa can share only with a numeric code.). When I use UDMobile to scan the QR code generated by Nest Hub: Error.  I also notice that the nest hub app only generates a code with the android version.  And iOS version of UDMobile is not quite ready, I understand.  This means that to do all that I tried one needs to have two android devices in order to share a matter device with ISY.  I keep hoping I am missing something.

I am glad I am not anxious to get a matter device to work.  As far as I can tell, matter is not ready for prime time.

So if I understand you correctly you were able to:

1- Add a Matter device to a nest hub

2- Share the device known by the nest hub to the Alexa echo, using a QR code generated by the nest hub (through a nest app?)

3- Try the same QR code (generated in step 2 above) that was accepted by Alexa echo in UD Mobile, but that failed.

4- You're saying that if you wanted to try scanning a QR code with UD that was generated by the nest app running on android, you'd need two phones, because one would need to scan the QR code off the screen of the other... though you could probably take an android screen shot (usually power + vol down), email it as an image from the gallery to yourself, open the email on a PC, and then scan the code off the PC screen. I did in fact use that trick when I tried to scan the Matter code generated by the Hue app (as a number, converted to a QR code by a web site). The UD app showed the sharing code number correctly, but gave it a 500 error.

 

So in all that, still not a single Matter device successfully added to your eisy... I get a sense that it's just not possible yet. There seems to be a piece missing. Either that or the requirements as listed in the release announcement aren't clearly explained.

Edited yesterday at 02:31 AM by Guy Lavoie

[brians]

5 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

I also tried adding a Matter device with a GE Cync bulb. QR code gives the same "500" error. But as an IP device, how does something like a new bulb fresh out of the box get access to my network? Seems it needs network access first. Is the Matter inclusion app doing some kind of UPNP scan? That aspect of it isn't clear.

Another thing is about those QR codes themselves. It's just a sticker on the bulb that easily falls off. If you lose it, I can't see how it could be recovered, unless there is some kind of network scanning app that could look for valid devices. At minimum, we'll need to write down the digits (xxxx-yyy-zzzz) that seem to form every Matter pairing code, so we can at least regenerate the QR code if needed again.

It uses BLE for device setup using a phone app. And yes you have to keep those codes - sometimes they are stamped right in the device.  If you don’t have the code you have a nice paper weight. In some cases the device app can generate a code for you but this is normally older devices that have been upgraded to matter eg. Older wiz bulbs. If you are using something like Philips hue the bulbs themselves are not matter and instead use the matter bridge. Aqara bridge does something similar where can bridge its devices to matter using their hub and then some devices are actual matter. But most advanced features still require use of an app.  

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, Guy Lavoie said:

2- Share the device known by the nest hub to the Alexa echo, using a QR code generated by the nest hub (through a nest app?)

Sharing with Alexa could probably be done with a QR code, but the nest hub has that option built in directly, and it worked for me.  Furthermore, while I cannot confirm it, I suspect this may be the method that puts both (echo and nest) matter (thread) routers into the same network.

 

1 hour ago, Guy Lavoie said:

3- Try the same QR code (generated in step 2 above) that was accepted by Alexa echo in UD Mobile, but that failed.

No, I generated a new QR code specifically with the intention of trying to link with UD mobile.  This would not be the same QR code that one would use for Alexa or Apple or whatever.

 

1 hour ago, Guy Lavoie said:

because one would need to scan the QR code off the screen of the other... though you could probably take an android screen shot (usually power + vol down), email it as an image from the gallery to yourself, open the email on a PC, and then scan the code off the PC screen.

Yes, but your trick might very well work.  I found it interesting that the iPad app for nest hub did not include the sharing-via-QR-code option.  Only the android version did this.  I also found it a little disappointing that the UDMobile app did not include the option to add matter devices via manually entered (or copy/paste) numeric code.

 

6 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

It's just a sticker on the bulb that easily falls off.

The two devices I have include a sticker, as well as being printed directly on the device.

[Guy Lavoie]

12 hours ago, brians said:

It uses BLE for device setup using a phone app.

Which phone app? I look at the foldout sheet that came with the Cync bulb and it has two sets of instructions, one for setting it up with the Cync phone app (which I haven't tried yet), another set for "Connect directly into your Matter-compatible smart home system". The third page then says that you may set up the bulb for use with the Cync app or Matter, but not both.

For the Matter setup, step 1 is to screw in the bulb so it lights up, then step 2 is "open your preferred Matter compatible app on your smartphone", and follow the "Add device" instructions in the app. Once again...how does the bulb get access credentials to my network? Are all Matter compatible apps using BLE to access the bulb? Is UD Mobile (I really don't think so)? From the reading I've been doing on Matter, it is principally a sharing mechanism more than a base protocol. Thus the reason for the use of pairing codes.

I get a sense that Matter devices aren't all created equal. To borrow a few terms from Insteon, some are responders and others are controllers. For example, the Hue app allows you to generate a pairing code so that another system like Google Nest can control the bulbs, so the Hue hub would be a responder. But the Hue app can't (at least not yet) control other non-Hue devices. Google Nest hub seems to have both responder and controller capabilities, and can thus act as a router between two systems.

Now we come to UDI...the release announcement says:

- Matter

Initial support for light bulbs and plugin modules:
-- WiFi direct.
-- WiFi through a Border Router such as Google Nest Hub or Apple HomePod.
-- Thread through a Border Router.

The first line "-- WiFi direct" seems to imply that it could control a wifi Matter device directly, like my Cync bulb. I think that's what most of us have been thinking, and trying. But this brings me back to my initial interrogation: how can the bulb first get recognized on my network? Seems some kind of setup is needed, similar to how we usually configure standalone network devices (eg: connecting to it as a wifi hotspot and telling it our SSID and password).

That's the step that seems to be missing.

 

[larryllix]

@Guy Lavoie Many apps have learned to ask the google android spy network what your SSID and password is now.

 

I guess the assumption is if you allowed to install you trust it with your credentials.

Hassle saver but scary. AI (oneUI guessing?) at your service.

Edited yesterday at 03:59 PM by larryllix

[oberkc]

2 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

The first line "-- WiFi direct" seems to imply that it could control a wifi Matter device directly, like my Cync bulb. I think that's what most of us have been thinking, and trying. But this brings me back to my initial interrogation: how can the bulb first get recognized on my network? Seems some kind of setup is needed, similar to how we usually configure standalone network devices (eg: connecting to it as a wifi hotspot and telling it our SSID and password).

I can tell you that my Cynd bulb (wifi) connected to my matter controller (nest hub gen 2, in this case) without having to input wifi credentials.  Yes, this suggests that my credentials are now at greater risk of becoming part of the next data breach.  I am not sure what to think of this.

[Guy Lavoie]

20 hours ago, oberkc said:

I agree...it is not intuitive to me.  I tried adding it directly with UDMobile scan.  Error.  I then added it to nest hub (worked) and shared it with Alexa echo hub (worked).  Unlike the Echo, google home can share connected matter devices via a generated QR code (Alexa can share only with a numeric code.). When I use UDMobile to scan the QR code generated by Nest Hub: Error.  I also notice that the nest hub app only generates a code with the android version.  And iOS version of UDMobile is not quite ready, I understand.  This means that to do all that I tried one needs to have two android devices in order to share a matter device with ISY.  I keep hoping I am missing something.

I am glad I am not anxious to get a matter device to work.  As far as I can tell, matter is not ready for prime time.

Got a little further...essentially replicated your test. I was reading up a bit more on Matter and discovered that even a 1st generation Google home mini supports Matter. I have had one sitting here for a couple of years, that I bought used for $15 when I was first checking out Alexa and such. I hadn't talked to it in all that time (poor thing!). So I fired up the Google home app and added the bulb, manually entering the pairing code (both that and QR options were available). Success...I can turn the bulb on or off in Google home, and vocally with the home mini speaker. This at least told me that IPv6 was working. Then I looked up how to share the Matter device with external apps, and did the "email the screen shot" thing to have a QR code to scan off my computer screen with the UD Mobile app. As expected, it gives me the 500 error.

It really looks like UD is missing a piece somewhere. Just nice to know that we're all on the same page. I'm in no hurry, and the learning experience is certainly beneficial.

[oberkc]

1 hour ago, Guy Lavoie said:

even a 1st generation Google home mini supports Matter.

Yes, older generation nests support matter (wifi).  Only gen 2 nest hub has the thread capability.  I am unsure which, if any, of the nest speakers include thread.

[Guy Lavoie]

I also retried scanning the original bulb's QR code, being that the bulb is now configured on my network. No go. 

One thing that remains to be determined is if my Polisy is configured and recognizing IPv6. Anything I could look at from a unix command line?

[GHenry]

 

25 minutes ago, Guy Lavoie said:

Anything I could look at from a unix command line?

ifconfig en0 (or en1) should do the trick.  If not, just try ifconfig and scan through everything until you find the IPv6 addresses.

Edited 19 hours ago by GHenry
quote, ref to IPv6

[Guy Lavoie]

1 hour ago, GHenry said:

 

ifconfig en0 (or en1) should do the trick.  If not, just try ifconfig and scan through everything until you find the IPv6 addresses.

Thanks. It's igb0 that has the ip configuration, and includes IPv6 information. My Polisy is connected by the wired network port.

[brians]

11 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

Which phone app? I look at the foldout sheet that came with the Cync bulb and it has two sets of instructions, one for setting it up with the Cync phone app (which I haven't tried yet), another set for "Connect directly into your Matter-compatible smart home system". The third page then says that you may set up the bulb for use with the Cync app or Matter, but not both.

 

 

Matter devices I have setup require scanning QR code and using a phone app. Apple HomeKit and Home assistant mobile app both worked for me. Although I don’t think it is 100% necessary for a matter device to require using a phone to enroll, it is pretty much the way everyone does it. In most matter devices they have BLE with allows your phone to communicate to do initial setup and it hands off your wifi or sets up on thread or whatever. This is very common to use BLE for lots of things now (eg. Not matter but another example is I can setup a UniFi router and adopt using my phone and BLE). UD even said their phone app would be used to scan QR code but I think they also hinted at other method direct with EISY using its BLE but I may be misunderstanding this.

I have not used a cync bulb but what you describe sounds like you can use their app/ecosystem or a matter system. Their app probably allows more advanced control of bulbs and maybe things like scenes, dim rates etc. whereas matter would just be basic settings. 

Edited 15 hours ago by brians