Insteon Scene not working as ISY reports

[WGKirby]

I have created 4 scenes of which 2 work properly and 2 do not. All individual switches can be controlled from the ISY device screen with 100 % accuracy.

 

The scenes that work are as follows:

2 switchlinc dimmers in a logical 3way

3 switchlinc dimmers in a logical 4way

 

The scenes that do not work are as follows:

2 switchlinc relays in a logical 3way

2 switchlinc 6 button in a logical 3way.

 

In the ISY administration console I can go to the scene and send an on and off command and the scene status indicator shows both switches changing state from on to off with no change to the loads actual status (light does not go on or off). If I go to the individual devices that make up the scene and look at their status they report consistent with the scene status. If I go to the switch controlling the load and the switch is reporting it is off I can turn the switch on and the load turns on. If I go to the switch controlling the load and it was turned on by a scene command (light is not on but is reporting on) and I turn the switch device off then back on the light will turn on. If i physically try to control the load from switch in a scene that is not controlling the load I can not.

 

All switches are set as controllers in each scene.

 

I can not figure out why two scenes work and two do not. Any help on trouble shooting this would be appreciated.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello WGKirby,

 

The first thing I recommend is doing a Scene Test on your scenes that do not work (Right mouse click on the scene | Diagnostics | Scene Test).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

In the ISY administration console I can go to the scene and send an on and off command and the scene status indicator shows both switches changing state from on to off with no change to the loads actual status (light does not go on or off).

My understanding is that the ISY will assume a device reacted to commands, even without confirmation from the device. This suggests, to me, that there is a communication problem in your case.

 

If I go to the switch controlling the load and it was turned on by a scene command (light is not on but is reporting on) and I turn the switch device off then back on the light will turn on.

Is it necessary to turn the switch off before turning it on? Would not the light come on if you simply turned it on without first turning it off?

 

There are a couple of questions I have:

 

a) do you have a method for providing a communication path across legs of your electrical system, such as two properly verified dual-band devices or access points or a signalinc?

what are the loads you are trying to control? Incandescent? CFL? LV with power supply?

[WGKirby]

Thanks for the reply.

 

The load for the (2) 6 button switchlinc switches is incandescent.

The Load for the (2) switchlinc relay switches is fluoresent.

 

I have multiple ( dual band devices providing bridging across phases.

I can controll each switch in each of the scenes that does not work individually with 100% success.

 

When I tried to run a scene test nothing happened. I was not presented with a list of scenes..... nothing happened. Below is a log of me turning on and off a scene that does not work.

 

Wed 10/10/2012 09:13:08 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.11 CF 11 00 06 LTONRR (00)

Wed 10/10/2012 09:13:08 AM : [ 1B E1 15 1] ST 255

Wed 10/10/2012 09:13:08 AM : [ 1E ED CD 1] ST 255

 

Wed 10/10/2012 09:13:13 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.11 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

Wed 10/10/2012 09:13:13 AM : [ 1B E1 15 1] ST 0

Wed 10/10/2012 09:13:13 AM : [ 1E ED CD 1] ST 0

[LeeG]

For a Scene Test right click on the Scene name, select Diagnostics | Scene Test. It will take several seconds for the Scene Test to run and report the results in an Event Viewer window.

[oberkc]

The Load for the (2) switchlinc relay switches is fluoresent.

 

If these are CFL, try temporarily replacing with incandescent. While I am not sure that this is a problem for you, the check is simple enough that one might as well be sure.

 

Regarding the scene test, do you have a lot of programs? Are any of these programs potentially triggered by a change of status by any of the devices in the scene-in-question? (If so, this could skew the results of the scene test.)

[WGKirby]

The fluoesent lights controlled by the relay switches are tube.

 

I rebooted the ISY and was able to run a scene test. results below.

 

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:48 AM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 11 13 00 06

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:48 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1B.E1.15 1C.FC.58 E1 13 FF LTOFFRR(FF)

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:49 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1E.ED.CD 1C.FC.58 E1 13 FF LTOFFRR(FF)

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:49 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1B.E1.15 1C.FC.58 E1 13 FF LTOFFRR(FF)

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:49 AM : [CLEAN-UP-RPT] 02 58 06

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:49 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1E.ED.CD 1C.FC.58 E1 13 FF LTOFFRR(FF)

>----- Laundry Room Test Results -----

[Failed] Mud Room 1 (1B E1 15 1)

[Failed] Mud Room 2 (1E ED CD 1)

>----- Laundry Room Test Results -----

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:56 AM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.11 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

[oberkc]

Are the devices that failed the scene test the same two that have incorrect reported status? Are these the same devices that are powering your fluorescent (tube) fixtures? Are those hardwired fixtures or can they be temporarily unplugged?

 

All indications continue, in my mind, pointing towards a communication problem. The communication problem could be associated with the PLM. What other devices do you have plugged into the outlet with the PLM? Computer stuff? UPS? Surge suppressor? Do you have your PLM plugged INTO a UPS or surge suppressor?

 

Given your success with your other devices, the communication problem could also be associated with devices powered by the same circuit as that powering your offending devices. I would be investigating what is on those circuits.

 

I have multiple ( dual band devices providing bridging across phases.

 

And how did you confirm this?

[WGKirby]

I have two scenes that are failing.

 

1. Has two switchlinc relay switches one of which controls the fluorescent tube fixture that cannot be changed. This is the same scene that I sent the scene diagnostic information on above.

 

2. Is a scene that has two switchlinc 6 button dimmers with incandescent loads attached to each switch.

 

The PLM is plugged into a circuit with other AV gear. I do have a filter and a filtering power strip between the PLM and these devices.

 

I can control each switch independently with complete success. With both of these scenes I can go to each switch device and turn it on and off from the ISY and watch the physical switch turn on and off and also see the ISY device show the switch turn on and off. It is only when I try to control the switches with scenes that if have failures. I woul think that if I can control the individual switches communication "should not" be an issue.

 

I am confused. I thought that insteon had a durable communication scheme, meaning that if you told a switch to turn on you would receive a confirmation from the switch stating the switch turned on. When I tell my misbehaving scenes to turn on why does the ISY show that the switches turned on when the physical switches did not change. Is the ISY just assuming the switches turned on and not listening for the response?

[LeeG]

“I woul think that if I can control the individual switches communication "should not" be an issue.â€

 

That is not a correct conclusion as the Scene On/Off messaging is very different from device direct control messaging.

 

However, Scene Test messaging (separate from Scene On/Off messaging) is similar to direct device control messaging. Since the Scene Test is producing a solid failure it raises some other variables. The Scene Test is dependent on link records both in the PLM and the devices themselves. From the Scene Test results the PLM is okay. The following part of the post I prepared earlier before seeing the last post.

 

Devices 1B.E1.15 and 1E.ED.CD did not respond to the Scene Off request. This is indicated by the NAK flag byte E1. Right click one of the nodes in the My Lighting tree. Select Diagnostics | Show Device Links Table. When the display completes click Compare button which will indicate if the link records read are what the ISY expects. Run the Show with the device OFF as florescent ballast could interfere with Insteon signals.

 

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:48 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1B.E1.15 1C.FC.58 E1 13 FF LTOFFRR(FF)

Wed 10/10/2012 10:59:49 AM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 1E.ED.CD 1C.FC.58 E1 13 FF LTOFFRR(FF)

 

If the Show and Compare indicate the link records are correct there is a communication problem with that device. Could be a coupling problem, could be interference from the fixture itself. Disconnect the Red load wire on both devices, cap them and run the Scene Test. A successful test indicates a load issue. If the Scene Test fails then something else is causing the problem. Could be a coupling problem or something else is causing interference on that circuit.

 

If the Show and Compare do show a link record problem (other than the last record which will be labeled [ignore} run Restore Device to rewrite the device link database.

 

EDIT: regarding the Query about Scene On/Off versus device direct control On/Off, a Scene On/Off is not ACKed and has no retry associated with it. The ISY marks the devices as it expects the devices to react to the Scene On/Off, not necessarily how they reacted or failed to react if there are communications or link record problems. The Scene Test failure indicates either a link record problem and/or a communications problem. The above procedure will determine if the link records are correct.

[oberkc]

I woul think that if I can control the individual switches communication "should not" be an issue.

LeeG knows far more than most about the details of interdevice communication. My view is much more observational. Individual devices can "work" based on communication between the devices, even with communication with the PLM impaired. When initiating the changes from the ISY, communication between device and PLM becomes critical. This is one reason that I suspected the problem is associated with equipment close to the PLM.

 

Regarding the mismatch between ISY and truth....yes, I understand that the ISY looks for confirmation, but when not recieved, it makes the assumption that the device status is as commanded.

 

Hopefully, the more learned among us will confirm or deny this.

[WGKirby]

I think you are on to something. When I performed the diagnostic show device links on any switch in a scene that was not working, I recieved a lot of junk links. If you can tell me an easy to read way to post the xml file I will. The switch links table had 31 entries 5 of which were "record mismatch" and the rest were "extra records". All of the entries were just hex entries starting with 00 and going up. Another strange thing was that the ISY progress bar acutally went from 0%-100% twice for each bad scene switch and once for all other switches.

 

The ISY table had 5 entries.

 

How did this happen and how do I fix this?

[ISYhbsh01]

EDIT: regarding the Query about Scene On/Off versus device direct control On/Off, a Scene On/Off is not ACKed and has no retry associated with it. The ISY marks the devices as it expects the devices to react to the Scene On/Off, not necessarily how they reacted or failed to react if there are communications or link record problems.

That’s interesting news to me as well. I never knew of this difference between scene vs. direct commands, and that when turning devices on/off thru a scene it’s not acknowledged & not retried & the ISY just assumes that the devices are following orders... In that case, in the old program vs. scene debate, using a program to control devices instead of using a scene has a very big advantage.

[LeeG]

WGKirby

 

The Show Device Links Table can be saved to an XML file. Edit the file with WordPad or something similar and copy/paste the XML file.

 

What ISY firmware are you using? Click Help | About, what is shown for Firmware and UI lines?

[LeeG]

hbsh01

 

It makes a difference only if the powerline is not reliable. Most users see no difference between Direct and Scene command response.

[WGKirby]

Here is the device links table for the load switch in the Switchlinc relay scene that is not working.

 

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4088 248 249 16448508 16645887

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4080 240 241 15922164 16119543

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4072 232 233 15395820 15593199

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4064 224 225 14869476 15066855

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4056 216 217 14343132 14540511

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4048 208 209 13816788 14014167

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4040 200 201 13290444 13487823

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4032 192 193 12764100 12961479

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4024 184 185 12237756 12435135

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4016 176 177 11711412 11908791

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4008 168 169 11185068 11382447

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4000 160 161 10658724 10856103

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3992 152 153 10132380 10329759

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3984 144 145 9606036 9803415

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3976 136 137 9079692 9277071

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3968 128 129 8553348 8750727

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3960 120 121 8027004 8224383

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3952 112 113 7500660 7698039

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3944 104 105 6974316 7171695

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3936 96 97 6447972 6645351

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3928 88 89 5921628 6119007

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3920 80 81 5395284 5592663

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3912 72 73 4868940 5066319

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3904 64 65 4342596 4539975

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3896 56 57 3816252 4013631

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3888 48 49 3289908 3487287

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3880 40 41 2763564 2960943

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3872 32 33 2237220 2434599

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3864 24 25 1710876 1908255

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3856 16 17 1184532 1381911

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3848 8 9 658188 855567

Device Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 3840 0 1 131844 329223

 

title ad fl gr id data

ISY Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4088 162 0 1899608 16719617

ISY Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4080 162 1 2026957 16719617

ISY Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4072 162 17 1899608 16719617

ISY Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4064 226 1 1899608 16719617

ISY Links Table : Mud Room 1 / 1B E1 15 1 4056 226 1 2026957 16719617

[LeeG]

WGKirby

 

The Show Device Links Table is from an I2CS device that is not being managed correctly.

 

It must be added using the Automatic option. Delete the device, add it back with the Automatic option.

 

Also before doing anything, what does Help | About show for Firmware and UI? In addition to needing to use the Automatic option the ISY and UI firmware must be late enough to support I2CS devices.

[WGKirby]

My software version on the ISY is 3.2.6 .

The way I linked all my switches is by menu option (link Management) (Start Linking) with the remove existing links option selected.

 

I have Factory reset the switches(2476s & 2477s) in one of my bad scenes a couple of times and deleted the switches from ISY and re-linked. Bad links still show up in the link table. I was able to locally link the two switches together (Smarthome way) and the switches would respond to on off command from each other. I could also still control both switches (individually) from the ISY.

 

Unless anyone has any better suggestions I think tomorrow I will remove two known working switches and replace the problematic switches. Then if needed I might run an extension cord from another outlet and plug the PLM into that. The only other option is that I received 4 bad switches from Smarthome which is highly unlikely.

 

Still seeking better options.

[LeeG]

Does the UI level also show 3.2.6 or some other value?

 

Perhaps I am thinking of a different post. Was the Link Management | Advanced Options changed from the default Automatic setting? If so it has to be set to Automatic.

 

Delete the SwitchLinc Relay. Factory reset the SwitchLinc Relay. Run Tools | Diagnostics | Event Viewer with Level 3 selected.

 

Use New INSTEON Device, enter the Insteon Address and Name of your choice. Leave the Device Type set to Auto Discover. Post the event trace from adding the SwitchLinc Relay.

 

When the Show Device Links Table has entries that have data such as F9 FA FB FC FD FE FF it means the ISY is treating the device as an I2 device when it is actually an I2CS device. This can be the result of the Admin Console (UI) being at the wrong level (Java cache not cleared and/or wrong URL). The Event trace will show what is actually happening. Verify that Help | About shows 3.2.6 for both the Firmware and the UI lines. That is critical.

[Xathros]

LeeG-

 

Isn't FW 3.3.3 REQUIRED for linking I2CS Devices ? Or at least 3.3.1 but preferably the latest?

 

-Xathros

[LeeG]

Xathros

 

Thanks for query. 3.2.6 has I2CS support. The 3.3.x beta series has additional thermostat support, resolves several problems but none that would affect the successful add of an I2CS SwitchLinc Relay. I think going to 3.3.3 is a good idea because of all the maintenance but the SwitchLinc Relays should work on 3.2.6.

 

I suspect either the Advanced Options setting is not Automatic or the UI (Admin Console) is not at 3.2.6. The ISY is using the old Peek/Poke method to manage the link database. That cannot work because Peek/Poke commands are dropped from I2CS devices. Unfortunately Peek/Poke commands are not rejected with a NAK, they just do not function. Link management gives the appearance of working but valid link records are not created. Thus Scenes with I2CS devices do not work. Direct device control (On/Off) works because they are not dependent on link records.

[Xathros]

LeeG-

 

Very nice explanation. Thank you.

 

-Xathros

[WGKirby]

To update on existing questions. The UI and the firmware are both at 3.2.6 rev. Under the (Link Managment) (advanced Options) the advanced option is selected. I am now polling all of my devices to find out which ones have bad links. When the table is wrong it is just full of sequential hex numbers a1,a2,a3..... If this was noise would it not be more random?

[LeeG]

That is not noise. It means the device is an I2CS device that the ISY is treating as an I2 device. If the devices were added to the ISY before going to 3.2.6 they have to be deleted and added back under 3.2.6. If they were added to the ISY under 3.2.6 click on the node, select Diagnostics | Query Insteon Engine.

 

Is the Advanced Options set to Automatic?

[WGKirby]

All my insteon switches were added under 3.2.6. I am converting from x10 for the ease of use an reliability Interesting, if I try to quey the Insteon engine I either get a "Request failed" dialog box or nothing at all. What is the Insteon engine?