Experience with a Nest Thermostat

[MstrD]

I recently purchased a Nest Thermostat. I know there have been a couple threads recently in regards to it's operation with the Isy. Here's what I've learned so far:

 

Background:

I previously had a Venstar 1800 installed and working with my Isy. I realized a couple of problems. I originally set up the Venstar on a schedule. I live in the Northeast and I wanted it to at least function on some schedule, even if the isy wasn't operating. It can get pretty cold this time of year. I couldn't risk being away for a weekend and have some glitch and have the pipes freeze. I wanted to over ride / adjust the temp based on my occupancy, desires, etc. I could log into my isy (locally and remotely) and adjust the temp as necessary. That was all fine until the power went out. The Venstar doesn't have a battery and when the power came back on, the Venstar didn't have the correct time. We don't have a lot of power outage, but enough where it was going to be a problem when the schedule was all off.

 

I saw that the new Venstar actually had a way for the Isy to set the time. I figured that would solve my problem. I picked up the new Venstar before Christmas when smarthome had a 20% off sale. I actually had it in hand, when I saw the Version 1 Nest on sale at Lowes. A bit of checking and the Ver 1. runs the same updated software as Ver 2. Ver 2 supports a 3 stage heat (which I don't have), and a few other setups that didn't apply to me. The Ver. 2 is also a bit smaller. The Ver 1.0 would be fine for me. I knew it wouldn't be compatible/configurable from the Isy but I figured I was ok with that, since I wasn't really using the Isy to run the schedules. So I sprung for it (since returned the new Venstar and will be selling the old Venstar/Insteon on ebay).

 

The Nest is pretty slick. Was easy enough to connect to my wifi and furnace. The Nest learns your schedule and it took it a few weeks to do that. It logs all your data. You can see the last week or so, and supposedly it sends a monthly report, but I haven't had it long enough for that yet.

 

It also has an auto-away feature that can set back the thermostat if you aren't home. That's been a slight problem, since my Nest is in the Living Room, and it isn't occupied that much. The Nest has a wide angle to view for it's sensor, but so far, it doesn't seem to know we are home. I'm contemplating moving the location (which shouldn't be too difficullt).

 

You can access the Nest from anywhere by logging into nest.com. There is an app for the iphone that works pretty well. There is also a siriproxy plugin that can operate the Nest as well. All that access was really what I wanted anyway.

 

I would like the ability to control the fan to circulate the air in the house (controlled by the isy). I'd also like to be able to control the home/away setting when I know someone is home (motion, light switch, etc.). That creates somewhat of a problem. As previously noted, there is no publicly available API protocol. Some of it has been reverse engineered.

 

I did find some python and PHP scripts that do work well. I'm running those on small Pogoplug plug computer running linux. (see my other threads about the NSLU - now upgraded to the Pogoplug if you want to see about that).

 

In reality, none of these scripts/apps (even the iphone) actually connect to the thermostat. They actually connect to the nest website, and in turn, it connects to your thermostat. I've had a few instances where I couldn't connect to the thermostat, as my router timed out the connection. I've tweaked that some, and still have some issues. It resolves itself after a bit (and the thermostat is still working fine anyway).

 

The Nest definitely has some cool features, and a slick interface. I like the logging, and it is "smarter" than my other thermostats. What I'm doing now is using the Pogoplug like I have with other devices (see the other threads). Letting the isy talk to the Pogoplug, and the Pogoplug the talk to the Nest. In that way I have the same control I had before. What I'm losing is the ability for the Isy to "know" the current temp status, or be able to query for it. BUT, I'm letting the Pogoplug get the data and update variables on the Nest.

 

I'll wait and see if the Nest actually saves me any money. I don't think it will, but I'll have to wait and see. So far I'm pleased with it. I've been able to work around my issues. I doubt there will ever be a direct way to control it, but so far, I've happy with the setup.

 

Just wanted to put this out there for anyone looking at one of these.

 

I'll also post up my scripts when I get them more finalized.

 

David

[apostolakisl]

Since it is all on the nest website, what about software that logs into the website, parses it out (I assume once logged in it puts up a summary page with all the relevant data like actual temp and set temp), then posts to isy variables using REST?

[ISYhbsh01]

That was all fine until the power went out. The Venstar doesn't have a battery and when the power came back on, the Venstar didn't have the correct time. We don't have a lot of power outage, but enough where it was going to be a problem when the schedule was all off.

 

Why would anyone who owns an ISY do the scheduling on the Venstar thermostat itself? I would compare it to like someone with a horse & buggy in the 19th century who finally buys a car, but continues to use the horse to pull the car... I have the old Venstars and I do all the programming from the ISY so it doesn't even matter what the tstat's clock shows. In fact I never even bothered to setup the date & time on the tstat itself. I have had plenty of power outages short & long ones, but when the power comes back on and the ISY reboots it syncs the time with NTP and everything continues to work the way it should.

 

 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[arw01]

As he indicated, the ISY can crash, hang, etc. If that happened then they thermostat program would continue to run and not cause his house to freeze..

[apostolakisl]

As he indicated, the ISY can crash, hang, etc. If that happened then they thermostat program would continue to run and not cause his house to freeze..

 

If ISY hung (which pretty much never happens), wouldn't the thermostat just continue at whatever temp it was before ISY hung?

[oberkc]

As he indicated, the ISY can crash, hang, etc.

 

Yes, it CAN (I suspect, never had it happen). So CAN the thermostat.

 

In my experience, having the ISY crash is, simply, not a concern.

[MstrD]

apostolakisl -

 

That's exactly what the iphone app does. It logs into their website. There are a couple ways to control the nest that I found here:

 

https://github.com/smbaker/pynest

https://github.com/gboudreau/nest-api

 

They log into the website and do just what you said. That's what I'm using now and incorporating in variables with REST to the isy.

 

David

[MstrD]

I original had the v1.1 thermostat adapter. Then I upgraded to the V2.2 (I think). One of the problems I was having was that at times, it would lock up, and you couldn't communicate with the thermostat. It wasn't specifically the isy. Maybe it was setup, or maybe it was a smarthome firmware problem. Either way, it required I go to the thermostat, turn it off, then unplug the adpater and plug it back in. Then it would be fine for weeks, and then have a problem again.

 

The other advantage of using the thermostat schedule is that (even in the Venstar), if you set to 68 degrees at 6:30am, it would come on before that (and it would vary based on the temp in the house) to get to 68 by 6:30am. You could do that with isy scheduling, but you'd also have to somehow estimate the start time based on the temp.

 

The Nest goes one step further (at least I think it does), as it knows your location and outside temp as well (via their website) and somehow uses that in it's calculations. It also has an automatic fan circulation for A/C (which I have yet to experience).

 

You can also change the entire schedule remotely via website, or iphone app.

 

I'm not saying this is ideal for everyone, and using the Isy to schedule thermostat works fine for many people. This is just the path I've taken. So far, what I've seen is that for a about $65 more, I get some extra features (and lose a few).

[Xathros]

MstrD-

 

Thanks for the writeup on the Nest. I've been watching those and am very interested in the pogo scripts to translate for the Nest. I'll be watching this for sure.

 

My ISY has become unresponsive on 2 occasions now. I don't think it crashed but rather got too busy with IP network stuff (DirecTV Flooding?) to do anything and required a reboot to recover. I do think a backup plan is always a good idea with critical systems like heat.

 

My backup is an old bimetal mechanical thermostat installed in the basement (most likely place to freeze in my place) set at 50F. This works in parallel with my ISY/Venstar. If the temp in the basement ever gets that low it is because the Venstar/ISY failed to call for heat and the old mechanical thermostat will pick up the slack.

 

I have a second one of these old stats in my breezeway near my pellet stove in SERIES with an IOlinc that I use to simulate a thermostat based on data from the Venstar in the next room. This mechanical stat is set to 80F and will shutdown the pellet stove should the ISY/Venstar/IOLinc fail to.

 

-Xathros

[apostolakisl]

Good idea on the parallel wired old fashioned thermostat.

 

Now you just have to worry about the furnace breaking. My suspicion is that the furnace itself is the weakest link.

 

My parents summer home (in northern MI) furnace fan broke last week and if not for their weekly guy doing a home check (who found the house at 34 degrees), bad things could have happened. Somehow their security system never sent the freeze alert it was supposed to.

 

I have the infinity system and unfortunately there isn't a whole lot you can do with them. They use a proprietary comm with the thermostat (RS 485?). You can re-wire it for a typical thermostat, however you lose out on lots of features that help the system run more efficiently and also keeps track of the operating parameters and notifies you of anything out of range.

[MstrD]

The Nest website also logs your heating/cooling cycles. It's all accessible from the web or the app. You can view each day. Look at the total heating time, compared with other days. You can click on each day and then see the actual heating cycles, how long it was in 1st stage heating, and how long it was in 2nd stage heating. It indicates by day if you were over/under the average, and why (outside temperature, manually overrides, auto-away, etc).

 

I'd attach some images, but I get an error that says they board's attachment limit has been met.

 

A lot of this might be fluff, but it is easy to use. I doubt there will be any real savings compared to other thermostats. I'll know more further into winter.

[apostolakisl]

I doubt there will be any real savings compared to other thermostats. I'll know more further into winter.

 

The answer to this is how good a job did you do programming your regular thermostat!

 

Knowing the time off, stage 1, and stage 2 can be helpful in sizing your system. After a years worth of data you will have a reasonable idea if your system is over sized and if so you can opt for a smaller unit whenever you might be in the market for a replacement. Of course you don't need a Nest to know if your system is undersized

[Xathros]

Now you just have to worry about the furnace breaking. My suspicion is that the furnace itself is the weakest link.

.

 

I tend to agree and in that vein, I also have a few DS1822's wired back to my CAI Webcontrol to monitor a few critical locations and alert me if out of bounds. Most likely overkill as this is my primary residence and in the last 2 months it's had a total of 5 hours unoccupied but I figured a few extra safeguards for damn near free isn't a bad idea.

 

-Xathros

 

Sorry MstrD! Didn't mean to steal your thread.

[johnnyt]

Thanks for posting, MstrD.

 

My RCS TR40 stopped sending/receiving data over its (wired) RS485 network recently. I was going to get an Autelis bridge to migrate it from HomeSeer to ISY but now I might be in the market for a whole new solution. That said the plus with my current technology and plan was that with the Autelis bridge and a splitter cable I was going to be able run both HS (which has a plug-in for the stat) and ISY in parallel and do the stat migration over time. (see viewtopic.php?f=78&t=9840 for more info)

 

I don't really want a wireless stat because of reliability concerns and because I have all the wiring in place. Plus my stat, furnace, ISY, HS, router, etc. are all on a 2200VA UPS with an external battery pack anyway (furnace has a DC motor and uses max of 700W on stage 2, <300W on stage 1). When power fails I lower the set point and when power returns I call for stage 2 heating to get-while-the-getting's-good in case power goes out again.

 

I personally prefer a solution that puts the stat ultimately in charge, not my HA. For outages that outlast my UPS, on power up I just send the time to my stat. I also have a mechanical stat in the basement for freeze protection - it was in the installation manual to do that and makes perfect sense given the risks and impact of an electronic or user programming failure (I live in Canada).

 

I'll look into this NEST w/pogoplug idea (or maybe the cheaper Raspberry PI?) and will keep watching this and other stat threads closely.

 

Thanks again.

[io_guy]

I'd recommend the Raspberry Pi over the pogoplug. It's smaller, uses less electricity and can run off an SD card. I've used both with archlinux and the Pi is cleaner.

Currently running all my link programs on a Pi.

 

I've looked at Nest previously but have zero desire to do anything with it until a public API is available. "Hacking" into their web portal to talk to your home thermostat is just way too ugly.

 

Personally I'd love to see some sort of "open API" added to the ISY, where specific ISY variables/functions can be read/written via REST, basically allowing us to interact with the internal ISY thermostat system instead of bit-banging over custom variables.

I do the bit-banging right now with my Honeywell (Enviracom) but it's definitely not as clean as it could be.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi io_guy,

 

Sounds like a good idea.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[arw01]

I too would love a nest, but without being able to talk to it directly etc I have been waiting.

 

With the Honeywell lawsuit, who knows what "features" they will loose in the feature and just take away from you.

 

Personally surprised there has not been an opensource kickstarter thermostat done yet with a full api.

[MstrD]

I've actually just ordered a Raspberry Pi so I'll be able to play around with one. Apparently my son just won't be able to survive we aren't running a server for Minecraft in our house for him and his friends (for those of you that don't know what MineCraft is, count yourself lucky. It's all I hear about anymore). There is a specialized version of Minecraft that can be compiled and will run 5-6 people at the same time on a Raspberry Pi.

 

The Pogoplug plugs are pretty cheap - specials for under $20. Raspberry Pi was $35. They both can run ArchLinux so I don't expect to many problems if I port over what I've already been doing.

 

On a side note, I've been running Festival on the Pogoplug for Text-To-Speech. It's not lightning fast, but it does work, and would work for a lot of voice messages. I suspect the Raspberry Pi will be much faster for that purpose alone.

 

I really wish Nest would have a public API but I don't see it in the near term. ON the flip side, it does do what it's supposed to do, so I can just let it do it's thing.

[abuttino]

If you have an always on Windows computer, this is the solution for you.

 

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