lilyoyo1

You don't have to be in either of those places but it was just an example that many in the US lives in areas where you can find hundreds of people in a small area. I've had neighbors ask for help with their own issues (all were using cable provided routers). A few added a couple of ring cameras only to watch their network performance take a hit

The thing about looking at your singular experience is that it assumes that millions of others are in your position. In my neighborhood, our houses are far enough away that no one interferes with each other. Go uptown and do a wifi scan, you'll run out of room on your wifi list (not literally). High density cities such as NYC and LA can run into wifi issues and people often do. It also doesn't take into account that most do not have enough networking experience or knowledge of tools that can help troubleshoot. In addition most still use the cable company provided routers. If they add repeaters, it'll be the generic mesh systems that you knock... We all still make alot of assumptions about a something that does not yet exist. It's easy for us to say so they need to do is XYZ. However, if it were, it would've already been done.

I think they chose wifi for it's pros (it's everywhere, no hub required, a variable they can control) not necessarily because it's the best or without issue

If you noticed, I said I don't see where they changed their focus to commercial not from. Besides, a few commercial ventures does not mean that's where their focus is/was. For example, I've done a couple of commercial projects but my focus is on residential new construction. One thing that stands out is that they've only highlighted a few large installations like that. That's because there aren't many more. Some of the works they showcased as theirs was piggy backed off of Steve Lee's work (independent of them). Regardless of the home size, it was installers choosing to use insteon in homes not insteon pursuing those homes. They developed the product as a low cost alternative for hobbyists and enthusiasts. Installers saw the benefits of it and used it. Their first move into mass appeal was actually the smartlinc. It was a way to gain acceptance by users who did not have the technical skills to use one of their PLC controllers or did not want to leave their computer on 24/7 with houslinc. Houslinc was always going to be disco'd after the first hub. While the hub could be used as a PLM, it was determined then that houslinc had reached EOL (around the same time it became free to use). The idea behind hub 2 was to go mainstream. This is when they started creating retail packages and working to sell in regular stores, When they came out with hub2, they disco'd houselinc completely but maintained it in regards to new firmware compatibility due to user backlash. Subsequently this is when they started on their Asics chip..The plan was for that and to create an "Isy killer" software (which employees laughed about), for hub 3. The store went from what it was to an Apple inspired theme. Then came home kit and the slide began/picked up steam. All future plans were dropped and the focus went to homekit.

I'm not really seeing where they changed their focus to a smart commercial building market (that's locked down by much higher quality systems). If anything, they focused more on mass/casual users than anything. This shows with their stabs at retail (and retail packaging), along with jumping aboard homekit from day 1 (which really jumpstarted their downfall).

They did with the Isy launcher.

I agree with you on all of your points. They have a rough road ahead of them. As much of a supporter of insteon that I am, they would have to show me that they are a completely different company than they were and not just lipstick on a pig. Other installers I know feel the same way. This is why im strongly against re-releasing the same old product line. This is a perfect time for a fresh start and clean slate. Sure, they'll upset some people since the devices would look different but it allows them to cut themselves off from the old history and poor quality issues that they cant seem to shake regardless of the truth. Existing base isnt enough to carry the company. Looking at the amount of old systems that have changed hands over the last few months on ebay, many of them are already gone and many of the rest probably have enough parts to be ok for a while. If a person wants a basic home control system or control over a few devices, there are simpler low cost options out there and they probably wouldnt have turned to insteon anyway. For those who wants Automation, those devices will not suffice and zwave has its own complexities which makes it even less attractive. For those looking for HA and not HC, insteon is perfect price wise and in simplicity which can allow it to have a place in the world. They may not be world conquering, but they can have enough market share to stay alive and flourish if they make smart decisions. I do think they should go back to focusing on the market that made them in the first place and become a niche company. With Polisy, HA, Homeseer, (Potentially) Matter, etc., they do not have to try and create products for every facet of someone's home. Just a core group of products that most people use and let others fill in the rest.

This i agree with. Matter is a must for them to even have a chance

The point that i was making about the screwless wall plate is how they match extremely well with the new devices vs older stuff. Its the small attention to detail which the old units lack such as exact color match and how they fit inside the wallplate themselves. Those minor details allow them to stand out even more. It's similar to lutron's devices and their Wallplates. The fit, finish, and consistency allows their devices to stand out just a little bit more. Some people are happy with things being good enough. However, as others step up and put more thought into their designs, insteon needs to do and be better- especially after their shutdown fiasco. They simply have more to prove at this point in order to win back old customers, gain new ones, and increase interest in 3 party licensing deals. They can have the best protocol in the world but that means nothing if they don't have product that people want to buy. Getting other companies on board will be harder as well. What do they have to offer that zwave, ZigBee, or wifi doesn't to make someone pay yet another licensing fee to use them? It's always been easy to license X10 but how many do so? Insteon could fall into the same boat. It's not like those same companies were knocking down the door to buy them. It's easy to say all that they have to do is XYZ. Reality is much different. They'll have to get companies to buy into them. The best way to do so is have a successful product line that people want to buy. Keeping the old line will allow them to sell a bunch of product early on as existing users snatch up spares but that does not guarantee long term success for their own sales or for others who may see them as the same old company. What is overlooked in all of this licensing talk is that Insteon will always be the sole source in dinner manner even with licensing deals since they'll be selling the chips and developing the firmware for the hardware themselves. For years, Sigma/silicon labs was the sole provider of zwave chips. It's telling that they opened up semi-conductor manufacturing to others in 2020 and yet you still see others buying from them because it's easier, quicker, and cheaper that way. No different than corporations selling franchises. It's yours but they still maintain control through various means and methods. Insteon will want to do the same. This means control over the firmware, code, or chip itself hence sole source in some manner. Because of this, before investing in product design, integration, distribution, etc. interested parties will wait to see if insteon will be viable long term. Ditto for installers. Those burned over the last year(especially with closure) will not rush to jump back on that band wagon. The message that a new line sends is much greater than the old.

Its not puzzling. If you yell at someone across a room and they hear you, does that guarantee you'll hear them? Same applies for your devices. That's why repeaters are recommended

They were finally purchased. There are a few discussions on the Smarthome channel forum

Yes.

I use a zwave motion sensor to do the same thing. Depending on room, time, and occupancy, lights will automatically turn on/off

It's possible they had a hub unit sent for FCC testing/approval but what was being released does not contain either one. The devices themselves are dualband

Nokia devices do not support wifi/Bluetooth nor are they RF only. They use the same underlying insteon dual-band technology as the old line

Who has said anything about a switch being something other than decora or toggle? Smartphones are all rectangular but yet there has been multitudes of designs over the years. Ditto with decora style switches. Go to Amazon and type in smart switch. You can see plenty of different ones there. Some are good while some are bad. They're still different designs using the same form.

No. It was supposed to be released last year but never was. The devices are dual band not RF only nor did they support Bluetooth/wifi.

Existing customers are important which is why backwards compatibility is important. Having a fresh design also reinvigorates their base. If existing customers were buying old insteon like that, they would've stayed in business. New customers obviously weren't enough. Continuing with the same stale lineup only serves to ensure the same results as previous iterations. When it comes to modern designs, the Nokia switches fits in much better with any decor. Not only that, they're ready to go as is. They can come to market with them while working to enhance them in any manner they like. In regards to the devices, they are matte along with matching screwless Wallplates. The paddle and keypads have a small led on the side vs a while row.

Yes. They had created a new line and licensed Nokia's name. They shut down before releasing it. There is no competition making insteon devices at this time. It uses the same code and can be manually added to existing switches. Should UDI get their hands on the developer documents and add them to the Isy, you could use them in native insteon scenes just like normal insteon devices

What are you talking about? Who said anything about a switch not looking like a switch (decora or toggle)? Even your comparison to Crestron! You're arguing stuff that no on has said Just like smartphones, you can still make decora switches that carry a premium look and feel. An example is lutron's sunnata dimmers/switches.The Nokia line design carries a classic look that's elegant at the same time. Ditto for Control 4 and Savant. There are many other switches out there as well with unique designs (some better than others). Read for context not argument. I didn't say they're done with you as a customer. I stated that with you having 300 devices in your home (with 200 that you barely use) the likelihood of you buying more in such a way to be sustainable (for them) is greatly diminished. They are better off focusing on new customers as well as giving new customers something to be excited over so they can upgrade.

The Nokia line included everything you stated except for matter support which can probably be added

I'm not understanding your point. Regardless of what you use, you are at the mercy of any mfg. that you buy from. No one is saying you have to rip anything out. If insteon wasn't purchased what would people have done? By keeping the same underlying technology to a point, a person can slowly upgrade over time while keeping the core system intact. If a person doesn't want to upgrade- their devices still work. With 300 devices and 200 you barely use- are you really sounding like a customer that insteon can depend on to keep them in business? From a business standpoint, you're a supportive customer but they've made what they're going to make from you with the old stuff. What benefit do they have to gain but rehashing the same stuff to keep you happy? Sure, you may replace devices over time, but that's not enough. It's the new customers with nothing that matter more to future growth At what point did I say insteon (or anyone) would create a weird looking switch? You can still create fresh new look without changing the form factor of something. Look at phones. They're still a rectangular slab. By changing a few design elements, they've kept them modern and with the times. Most of the stuff out there (including Nokia) are still decora style switches. Those buying 5 or 10 switches to "try out" would still have different switches until fully swapped so it doesnt matter.

If RF is waiting for a clear zero crossing, then the signal would not be sent to another device causing delays. This is why you see people with responders still not communicating with a controlling device properly even when in RF range

It amazes me that so many folks on here complained about insteon and lack of changes but yet, all want things to stay the same as they used to be. If insteons look was that fresh, they never would've struggled (even before COVID). People would've been snapping them up and business would've boomed. Yes, nearly every home in the US uses toggle or decora style switches. However, it must be said that those swapping them out want something better than the standard fare. It's nice to keep things the same for existing users but how does that help long term growth? Existing users are already capped out for the most part. How many devices would they really purchase that would be sustainable for long term viability? Both old and new users OTOH would purchase multiple devices in order to rebuild their networks which means more sales over time. At one point, insteon did have great looking devices but it's grown stale when compared to other offerings. With looks being subjective, that does minimize the debate. However there are some things that can be quantified such as how a device feels and responds. Compared to zooz and the Nokia devices, build quality is much better on those. Switch response is as well. No cheap sounding click when a device is operated. Also, devices are much quieter when pressed. No super bright LEDs that needs to constantly changed because they're too bright in a dark room in addition to the understated classical elegance both bring to a home. The last part allows for easier integration into any decor. Refreshes happen all the time. That's how companies re-energize their base to get them to upgrade and attract new customers. That's why today's cars look nothing like they did 20 years ago. Home interiors are designed differently today than they were 10 years ago. Ditto for TV's, appliances, etc. Hell, even apple will redesign the iphone after a couple of years.

In dual band devices, timing is still based off the zero crossing regardless of how transmitted.