Rich Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 this doesn't seem quite right to me... Background to why I'm asking this question: I have a scene for my kitchen, there are 3 switchlinc dimmers, 2 of them used to be a 3 way manual switch (Kitchen (back) and Kitchen (front)) and control the main lights in the kitchen, the 3rd switch just controls the light above the sink. So the scene looks like this; Kitchen (back) v.27 Kitchen (front) v.27 Kitchen (sink) v.35 The end result being the kitchen (sink) light can be switched on from kitchen (back) or kitchen (front) and vice-versa. This all works perfectly well when i press any of the three switches manually. So what's my problem.... Well, turning the scene on or off from my ISY-99i/IR pro (currently on 2.6.13) has only ever intermittently turned the Kitchen (sink) light on or off, I've had the issue with all of the previous firmware releases but anecdotally it seems to be worse with the most recent release... BUT... that's not my point or my question.... it just made me annoyed enough to spend a few hours trying to figure out what was going on. I thought it must be noise/interference so i bought 2 filterlincs, and started methodically plugging them into appliances - literally taking a room at a time and unplugging everything then plugging stuff in one at a time with and without a filterlinc... It didn't help at all, the problem was still there.... It's probably worth noting that I have 2 access points properly configured on each phase, and i've checked, double checked, moved them around, re checked etc etc etc and it seems that there isn't anywhere that I can put them that makes much of a difference, i've tried them as close to the breaker box as I can get, one close one far both far etc etc etc... So eventually I started switching the breakers off one by one to see if that could help isolate the issue, and this where I got confused... I have a standard breaker box (well what i assume is standard in the US ,i'm from the UK), only one of them, in the garage, big metal door, lots of fuses down each side with the main switch at the top in the middle... I started throwing fuses individually and checking to see if it helped, none helped the issue but as I got down to the fuse labeled GDO for Garage Door Openers and I switched it off (It actually turns all the power off in the garage including the lights and receptacles in addition to the openers) something really odd happened. All of the circuits that the access points were on, as well as the ISY and the PLM were live, I could see the access points blinking when I tried to issue a command but with the GDO fuse off the ISY couldn't communicate with about 70% of my devices, I ran a query all and got a bunch of errors and red exclamation marks.... like the GDO fuse was a bridge to the rest of the house for Insteon comms but not electricity because everything else was still live... The ONLY circuit that was off was the garage - ALL of the devices that the ISY couldn't communicate with were on and responded to local commands, the ISY was alive and I could get to the admin console and both access points were live and I could see them trying to do something when I tried to issue a command from the ISY but 70% of my devices were effectively unreachable from commands sent from the ISY. And that's my question... does anyone have any idea why turning off a single circuit that has no Insteon devices on it could cause the ISY to lose connectivity to a bunch of devices.... turning the GDO circuit back on restored everything to it's pre-kind-of-working state but left me with a hurting head as to what's going on... I think it must have something to do with my comms issues (in addition to the kitchen there are a couple of other scenes set on that side of the house that regularly don't respond)... This stuff is great, and i think i'm a sniff from getting it stable enough to do some clever stuff but jeze it's so difficult to trouble-shoot it's making me wonder if I should ebay the lot and stick with switches that don't have a mind of their own.... Any help, guidance or psychiatric help is much appreciated... p.s. one thing i just remembered is I meant to ask if mixing i1 with i2 in the same scene might be the cause? I'm assuming a v.27 switchlinc is i1 and a v.35 is i2?
Michel Kohanim Posted January 9, 2009 Posted January 9, 2009 Hi Rich, First of all, this is becoming a known issue with SWL 35s (i2): intermittent response to scene commands. So, please do not waste too much of your time trying to figure out what's causing this. Do be kind enough to request for a replacement. As far as your fuse, it's quite possible that your ISY and 30% of your devices are on one phase and your garage and the other 70% are on the other phase. I assume that one of the access points was on the garage phase. This would explain everything you were experiencing as the access points bridge the phases. With kind regards, Michel
Rich Posted January 9, 2009 Author Posted January 9, 2009 Thanks Michel, I've already replaced the switch (3 times) with brand new switches that I was buying for other parts of the house (all v.35) and all the replacements have exhibited the same behaviour, and the switches I've taken out then work perfectly well installed elsewhere... which makes me think it's something to do with the location/wiring and not the device. For the fuse thing I'm only turning off the garage fuse, the circuits that the PLM and ISY are on as well as both of the access points are still live as are all of the devices the ISY loses connectivity with, I don't have an access point on the garage circuit (One is on the other phase the other is on the same phase as the garage but not on that circuit) - turning off one circuit (providing it does NOT have an access point on it) shouldn't break Insteon connectivity right? Switching off any of the other circuits (that don't have an access point on them) don't affect communication, it's just the garage circuit... I hope my explaination makes sense? Are there any common wiring mistakes that can cause comms issues that I could look for?
rowland Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 This is a strange one. Could you try a test for me? It involves directing the PLM to report it's links table. In the admin console Tools->Diagnostics->Show PLM Links Table. By selecting Start the contents of the PLM's links table will be presented. It's the number of links reported that is important. Do this (press Start) 4 or 5 times and see if the number of links reported varies. Do this test both with your garage turned off and with it turned on. I'm hoping to see that the number of links varies with the garage turned off (the problem state), but that the number of links doesn't vary with the garage turned on( the correctly working state).
jhimmel Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 First of all, this is becoming a known issue with SWL 35s (i2): intermittent response to scene commands. So, please do not waste too much of your time trying to figure out what's causing this. Do be kind enough to request for a replacement. Yes, this is unfortunate. However, do they actually have replacements that correct this deficiency yet? Jim H.
ulrick65 Posted January 10, 2009 Posted January 10, 2009 Is the garage circuit that you are turning off a double pole breaker? (in other words it is two circuits controlled by one breaker). The reason I ask is because the only thing I can think of is that something in your garage circuit is actually acting as a bridge for the phases...and your access points are not bridging the phases as you think they are. I know this sounds remote...but I can not come up with a better explanation. To test it, perhaps you could turn the garage circuit off, then try moving your access and reconnecting them to be sure they are on opposite phases. I do not believe the two issues are related...I think your problem with your kitchen scene is likely related to the I1-I2 issues or possibly some other communication issue (I doubt it, but to test you could replace the v.35 switch with another older one that you have and see if the problem goes away). Thanks Michel, I've already replaced the switch (3 times) with brand new switches that I was buying for other parts of the house (all v.35) and all the replacements have exhibited the same behaviour, and the switches I've taken out then work perfectly well installed elsewhere... which makes me think it's something to do with the location/wiring and not the device. For the fuse thing I'm only turning off the garage fuse, the circuits that the PLM and ISY are on as well as both of the access points are still live as are all of the devices the ISY loses connectivity with, I don't have an access point on the garage circuit (One is on the other phase the other is on the same phase as the garage but not on that circuit) - turning off one circuit (providing it does NOT have an access point on it) shouldn't break Insteon connectivity right? Switching off any of the other circuits (that don't have an access point on them) don't affect communication, it's just the garage circuit... I hope my explaination makes sense? Are there any common wiring mistakes that can cause comms issues that I could look for?
Rich Posted January 12, 2009 Author Posted January 12, 2009 Thanks for the replies; I've pretty much spent the weekend with most of my electrics hanging out the wall trying to narrow this down... so far I'm at; rowland - doing the count with the garage on and off resulted in the same # of links in the PLM (It's v73 btw in case that matters) and bizarrely I can't repro the issue, I have no idea what happened (and know most of you will be thinking I had an AP on the circuit but unless my 6 month old started pulling plugs out the AP's haven't moved and stuff started working again...) so that "issue" has gone, not sure if one or both of the AP's got temporailiy zapped with me flipping a fuse or what, but whatever flipped out has rectified itself. ulrick65 - it's not a double pole and I think you're spot on with them not being related So, here's how i spent my weekend... 1) I installed the 10 new switchlinc dimmers v.35 i'd bought before the holidays in various places of the house - every circuit in the house now has an insteon device on it (every light/recepticle circuit) - I have 25 devices, 2 AP's and the PLM/ISY in a 3600sqf home. 2) I moved a bunch of my existing devices around so that all of my scenes now consist of devices of the same f/w version (I'm grabbing at straws I know but as I was tearing my house to bits anyway I thought I might as well give it a go...) 3) I finally mapped my fuse box to the house to figure out exactly what fuses map to what outlets/switches 4) I factory reset my ISYi99/IR, reinstalled 2.6.13, factory reset the PLM, air gapped all my switches and added them 1 at a time to the ISY. 5) Recreated my scenes, I have 10 all of them very simple and for the most part just replicate what would happen if the physical circuits were still there (I'm trying to get to steady state before I start getting clever)... These are my observations after my weekend of work.... 1) I have exactly the same problems I had before. 2) My Samsung TV (HD 120hz) causes problems - even though I have it plugged into a FilterLinc the FilterLinc seems to do nothing, I've tried 2 and either both are faulty or they are useless with my TV... 3) I have devices that take 2 or 3 attempts to add to scenes that if I i link them manually they link instantly 4) I have scenes that intermitently work through the ISY yet work 100% when triggered locally 5) I can't get any .27 switchlinc to take any ramp level change through the ISY - the ISY reports that it's changed it but turning it on through the ISY or at the switch just uses the default post air gap ramp, which seems to be .1 sec for .27 devices and 2 secs for .35 - and i'm talking about doing this on devices that are not part of a scene i.e. clicking on the device under "My Lighting" and making the change - and for what it's worth I have a random bunch of devices reporting an incorrect ramp rate of 9 mins... 6) I occasionally caught glimpses of errors reported as I added/removed devices or created scenes but the ISY progress dialog closed to quickly to see what they were... 7) I'm pretty close to chucking in the towel, ebaying the lot and looking at something else like UPB - this was supposed to be a fun project and it's turned into an expensive frustrating waste of time and money at the minute... So, unsuprisingly I have more questions that I hope you clever people can either answer or else make me an offer for a bunch of 2nd hand Insteon kit and an ISY99i/IR 1) Do the filterlinc's really work for insteon traffic (I remember reading somewhere that they blocked 120mhz and Insteon was 130 something ? If that's the case is there something else I can try for my TV and why are SH selling them with an Insteon tag on them?) - I also had the tv unplugged for most of the weekend while I doing all of this - I was seeing more issues with it plugged in... a couple of switches in particular flat refused to work with the TV switched on and work flawlessly with it unplugged (They are on the same circuit and physically close to each other and the TV) 2) This one is for Michel... how stable is 2.6.13? I have no idea if the issues I'm seeing are ISY related, device related, noise related etc, it makes it pretty much impossible to trouble-shoot, and when stuff just works locally it makes me think that it's the ISY or my PLM and I have no way of taking them out of the equation as I don't have replacements... Some of the issues like ramp rates not being written to devices and random 9 min ramps look like software and make me kinda nervous that the other comms issues I'm having that I'm hunting for a noise source for to explain (excluding the TV) might be ISY/PLM issues... 3) Can anyone point me to some documentation that explains how to interpret the link tables in the PLM and a device? I started looking at some devices and have seen what to me seems to be strange behavior (and this is probably a good point to note that I seem to have only a subset of my devices in the "Show device links table" in the ISY, i.e. some devices just don't show up... there's probably about 60% of them show up in the list when I click "start" ), for example, adding 2 airgapped, new switchlinc .35's they both add fine but checking the device link table for each one there are 3 links in one and 2 in the other, this is immediately after adding them and the ISY has never seen them before. The other thing that strikes me as strange is that some devices have links one link to 00.00.00 in them - is that normal? 4) I found one circuit/fuse that seems to feed an inordinate amount of recepticles/lights - it's basically the family room recepticles (5)/lights (1), kitchen lights (9), dinning room lights (1), and 2 other recepicles (e.g one under the stairs) - which seems like a lot, and this is one of my problem circuits... could it be the length of wire, # of outlets etc on this circuit that is causing issues? if it is, apart from rewiring, is there anything I can do? I'd really appreciate any help or pointers... Thanks, Rich.
rowland Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 Just to make sure I understand. Does it matter if the Samsung TV is on? I.e. are there problems with it plugged in and not turned on? I'm supposing that you have more problems with the TV connected (either just plugged in or plugged in and on) but that without it connected you still have problems - just fewer than with it connected. Is this right? Filterlincs work well for blocking line noise that affects the transmission of Insteon communication packets. The fact that Filterlincs don't help is indicative of line noise that causes problems not by blocking Insteon traffic. Instead, the line noise causes the logic in the devices to malfunction. Usually this type of line noise has a much lower freqency than that of the Insteon communication frequency. Thus, the Filterlincs are ineffective. Did you happen to try the diagnostic test with and without the TV connected in the way that causes problems? If not, could you give it a go?
wwat Posted January 12, 2009 Posted January 12, 2009 Hi Rich, This probably doesn't account for all your issues, however I have seen a good deal of the same behavior related to the switchlinks. Something to think about; IF there happens to be a bug in the switchlink firmware, in particular the part of the fireware that only relates to third partly interface then that would account for what you see. So manually it works without any issue but try to use the switchlink via its third party interface and its doesn't reliably work as advertised. Just a thought.. Wayne
Rich Posted January 13, 2009 Author Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks for the reply Rowland - Yeah it does matter if the TV is switched on (When I did the previous sweep of the house unplugging and plugging everything back in for some reason I neglected to test stuff with the TV switched on, it was just plugged in and on standby) If it's plugged in and on standby or unplugged completely then my comms issues get much better when sending commands via the ISY (no real difference wrt to relability between unplugged and standby), i still get sporadic lights failing to respond both that are part of a scene or just on their own and a second click of the on/off in the ISY UI always gets through, but it's way better than with the TV actually switched on. With it switched on there's 1 switchlinc that fails to respond about 80% of the time and 2 outletlincs that respond about 60% of the time (all on the same circuit as the TV) and various other misc switches on other multiple circuits that just behave erratically or fail to link properly. The ramp rate problem stays the same with the TV on/standby/unplugged... Do you have any advice for preventing the noise you described below (other than getting a different TV ) One other bit of info that may be completely irrelevant is that I bought a multimeter from Lowes on Sunday night that can measure freqency... plugging it into the recepticle closest to the TV with the TV unplugged shows a solid 59.99 Hz, plugging the TV in it stays solid at 59.99Hz, turn the TV on and it goes bananas, constantly flipping all over the place from 40 something to about 90 something. I also tried the same exercise just plugging the filterlinc in without any load and it also sent the reading as nuts as turning the TV on.... I have no idea if this is expected behaviour or if I'm just randomly spouting rubbish...? Wayne - thanks for the reply - i have 6 v.27 switchlincs that I've previoulsy been able to set the ramp rate on using the ISY and the original firmware version it came with (can't remember what version it was though) so unless something has zapped all my switches and broken/corrupted the same bit of firmware.... is there any way I can send a command to a switch by plugging the PLM directly into my computer that you know of that doesn't involve paying Smarthome money for a developer kit?
Sub-Routine Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 .... is there any way I can send a command to a switch by plugging the PLM directly into my computer that you know of that doesn't involve paying Smarthome money for a developer kit? You could try this (although I haven't): Insteon Explorer Rand
rowland Posted January 13, 2009 Posted January 13, 2009 One other bit of info that may be completely irrelevant is that I bought a multimeter from Lowes on Sunday night that can measure freqency... plugging it into the recepticle closest to the TV with the TV unplugged shows a solid 59.99 Hz, plugging the TV in it stays solid at 59.99Hz, turn the TV on and it goes bananas, constantly flipping all over the place from 40 something to about 90 something. I also tried the same exercise just plugging the filterlinc in without any load and it also sent the reading as nuts as turning the TV on.... I have no idea if this is expected behaviour or if I'm just randomly spouting rubbish...? I'm a little confused. When you plugged in the Filterlinc without turning on the TV did the frequency tester show erratic results? I would expect that connecting the frequency tester to the load side of the Filterlinc would show 60Hz with the TV off and erratic results with the TV on. I.e. the Filterlinc itself doesn't cause a problem, and it's ineffective at blocking the problems produced by the TV. A Filterlinc is a low pass filter device. I.e. it allows lower frequency energy to pass while blocking higher frequency energy. The higher the frequency the more it is blocked. The 60 Hz energy being delivered by AC power lines is thus allowed to pass while the noise at 120 kHz and 131 kHz is all but eliminated. Although Filterlincs were originally intended for X10 they are actually slightly more effective for Insteon since it communicates at a slightly higher frequency than X10. What you observed with your frequncy tester is exactly what you'd expect. The TV appears to be injecting low frequency noise (40 Hz - 90 Hz) onto the power line. This passes through the Filtelinc with almost no attenuation and then causes Insteon devices to malfunction. There are ways to filter the 40 - 90 Hz noise. These methods involve a filter that rejects energy at frequencies other than 60 Hz. An islolation transformer might do it. An UPS could possibly work as well. But, I suspect the cheapest, most reliable, and easiest path is to get another TV. I'd take your tester to the showroom floor and test before you buy. It ain't right, I know. I had to replace a PC. Could you do me a favor? Please run the diagnostic test I described with your TV plugged in. You've managed to determine the source of your low frequency noise and so you don't need the test. But, I'm trying to determine the effectiveness of the test and knowing if it works for your particular problem would be helpful.
IndyMike Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 rowland, I don't mean to be argumentative but... I pulled apart a Filterlinc the other day and it appears to be a copy of a Leviton 6287 Bandstop filter. The Leviton model 6288 filter is an actual low pass unit with a cutoff point around 13Khz. Your points below are valid for the Leviton 6288. I have a post with links to schematics over here: http://www.forum.universal-devices.com/viewtopic.php?p=15660#15660 ...A Filterlinc is a low pass filter device. I.e. it allows lower frequency energy to pass while blocking higher frequency energy. The higher the frequency the more it is blocked. The 60 Hz energy being delivered by AC power lines is thus allowed to pass while the noise at 120 kHz and 131 kHz is all but eliminated. Although Filterlincs were originally intended for X10 they are actually slightly more effective for Insteon since it communicates at a slightly higher frequency than X10. Rich, Since the Filterlinc is a bandstop filter, it is eliminating noise over a narrow region around the X10/Insteon transmission frequency. It is possible that your TV is generating noise outside of the filter range. If the noise is of sufficient magnitude, it may be activating the AGC (automatic gain control) on your Insteon receivers making it difficult for the devices to "hear" certain transmissions. Another option is that the signal is higher in frequency and it is combining with another noise source to generate a beat frequency in the 130Khz range. In either case, you may benefit from a true low pass filter like the Leviton 6288. The following is a comparison of the lowpass and bandstop filter performance: If you do give this a try, please let us know how things turn out. There are a lot of Samsung TV's out there. IM
rowland Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 IndyMike, Didn't know that about the FilterLinc. You're right, if it is a Bandstop then it won't work slightly better for Insteon than for X10. But, the main point I was trying to make is that in some situations the noise causes devices to malfunction - not block the communications between devices. I'm thinking that could be the case here. The diagnostic test I described doesn't cause traffic to flow and, therefore, any failures can't be the result of blocked communications because there are no communications to block. I had always assumed that noise causing device malfunctions was low frequency. My experience is that, all things being equal, and, as a general rule, lower frequency systems contain more energy. And, energy would be required to cause a device malfunction. But, that's just an assumption. Probably biased me towards thinking the Filterlinc was a lowpass. If the problem here is low frequency noise causing devices to malfunction then lowpass vs bandstop doesn't make any material difference. But, if it's high frequency noise then a lowpass filter should help. It'd be good to know. Do Insteon receivers even have an AGC? Seems more sophisticated than what I would expect from Insteon/SH.
Sub-Routine Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 I was cringing when I read this. We just replaced an old Samsung tube TV with a new Samsung LCD and I am happy to say there is no loss in Insteon communications here. Could it be just something wrong with that particular television? Rand
rowland Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Could it be just something wrong with that particular television? Rand The problems that I had were with one PC. Didn't even have to be on, just plugged in. I had another PC with the same model power supply that didn't give me problems.
IndyMike Posted January 14, 2009 Posted January 14, 2009 Rowland, I do not disagree with the information that you've presented. However, I don't think the low frequency noise theory fits the scenario posed by Rich. 1) A low frequency noise pulse would be pervasive to the entire system. Low frequency would only be attenuated by the series resistance of the wire (around 0.01 ohms/foot for 12/2). Instead, Rich is reporting only local problems with 3 devices all on the same circuit. 2) Low frequency noise requires a lot of power on the part of the generator. The noise source is required to drive the very low impedance of the powerline. I question whether a LCD TV is capable of generating low frequency noise on the powerline. I looked up the specs on some switching power supplies used in current TV's (plasma and LCD). Switching frequencies appear to range from 6Khz up to 176Khz. While the 6Khz switching frequency is below the cutoff of the Leviton lowpass filter, the supply is operating at minimum power at this point. As the power supply load increases, the switching frequency increases. Curiously, I found a number of supplies (mostly for CRT's) that hit max power at 130Khz (Insteon). The variable frequency nature of these supplies can sometimes make these problems extremely hard to track down. Since Rich's problems appear to be local to the LCD TV (attenuation of high frequency noise) and the TV power supply should be at max frequency at max load, I would guess this is a higher frequency noise problem. As far as the Insteon devices using AGC - I posed that question to Smarthome prior to getting into Insteon. After repeated inquiries (Yeah I can be a PITA, those are my good days) I received two No's and three Yese's. So I guess the yeses have it (the last yes came from a design engineer). IM
Rich Posted January 15, 2009 Author Posted January 15, 2009 Thanks again for all the replies. I think i have a perfect storm of issues my PLM quit on me yesterday, I can't do anything with it, won't reset, ISY can't restore or remove it... so i have an email into SH to get it replaced... rowland/IndyMike - this is what i saw; tv unplugged - 59.99 tv plugged in on standby - 59.99 tv switched on - bananas only the filterlinc plugged into the socket, nothing plugged into either the filtered or passthrough - bananas tv on or off plugged into the filtered socket of the filterlinc - bananas If it helps, the TV model# is LN40A630M1F and it's a new TV.... I'll wait to hear back/get a replacement PLM from SH and update this thread, kinda stuck the moment as my ISY is a brick because the PLM has died... thanks again for all your help so far...
Sub-Routine Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 Since the TV is new I would suggest a return. Tell them it bugs up your network. Another of the same model might work fine. As I said we have a Samsung TV. We also have a Samsung VCR/DVR, no problems. It could be a one off issue. Rand
ulrick65 Posted January 15, 2009 Posted January 15, 2009 What type of meter did you get at Lowes? I am wondering if it really has the capability of measuring frequency changes accurately enough to mean much? Thanks again for all the replies. I think i have a perfect storm of issues my PLM quit on me yesterday, I can't do anything with it, won't reset, ISY can't restore or remove it... so i have an email into SH to get it replaced... rowland/IndyMike - this is what i saw; tv unplugged - 59.99 tv plugged in on standby - 59.99 tv switched on - bananas only the filterlinc plugged into the socket, nothing plugged into either the filtered or passthrough - bananas tv on or off plugged into the filtered socket of the filterlinc - bananas If it helps, the TV model# is LN40A630M1F and it's a new TV.... I'll wait to hear back/get a replacement PLM from SH and update this thread, kinda stuck the moment as my ISY is a brick because the PLM has died... thanks again for all your help so far...
Rich Posted February 13, 2009 Author Posted February 13, 2009 Hi again, been a while, life got in the way of my OCD with my lighting... So, I have an update, and it's a happy one, hopefully others will find this info useful... First off ulrick65, the multimeter is an "Ideal 61-312" and I think you're right, I dont think it very accurate but it did help narrow things down a bit. I have a mix of old and new devices and am now on 2.6.15 RC1. I'd been having really bad communications issues all over the place after installing a bunch of new switchlincs and upgrading past 2.6.7. I now have a stable and I'd go as far to say a 100% response rate on all of my devices (over 40). To get to this point I've; 1. Replaced my PLM (It broke mid way through my trouble shooting but I'm pretty sure it had little to do with my problems) 2. Moved my PLM into the garage to the closest recepticle to the fuse box 3. Installed a Leviton 6288 filter on my new TV (Thanks to IndyMike's suggestion) 4. Factory reset all of my devices and restored them from the ISY (also did a compare links on all the devices to check they were all in sync) 5. Purchased 2 more access points (I have 4 in total now) and 2 are on each phase on circuits that I've guestimated are the longest in wire length 6. Purchased 2 FilterLincs and installed them on a fridge and a computer In terms of what made the biggest difference; 1. I think is irrelevant 2. Made a HUGE difference, like MASSIVE difference... when i think about it, it's kind of obvious, the PLM was plugged into a socket in the study which is at the other side of the house from the fuse box and on a circuit with a lot of recepticles/lights on it, so the signal had to make it all the way along the wire to the fuse box then out again, pretty much doubling the distance... just doing this fixed 80% of the issues I had. 3. IndyMike, thank you The leviton filter cleared up the only circuit left that I had issues with, and it was the TV. If the TV was on but there was no picture (on a Comcast radio channel for e.g.) then I had no problems, as soon as i changed to a channel that had a picture the circuit went haywire and every device either point blank stopped responding or was really unreliable. I plugged the leviton filter in and everything just worked like a charm, TV on, lights on, light off, light on, lights off 4. I found a bunch of phantom links and mismatches so i just reset everything, I think this probably helped but I'm not sure how much 5. I've not tried removing the AP's since i've got everything stable (too scared ) but at some point i'll take them out of the equation and see if moving the PLM and filtering the TV fixed everything or if the AP's are actually needed, and considering all the chatter on these forums about more AP's being better I;m inclined to leave them even if they don't look like they're needed... 6. Completely not sure, again not reomved them since everything settled down and they were there before the TV filter and the PLM move... All in all, I'm now a happy camper... Thanks again for all the replies and advice!
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