ISY Noob Advice?

[AZPhil]

I just ordered an ISY994i (no ZW, no IR) with the Insteon 2413S PLM. (The low-end model)

While waiting for the ISY to get here, I thought I would plan out my strategy for migrating everything from Houselinc to the ISY, whereupon I will decommission Houselinc and the computer running it.

I have read in a few places that I should start the migration by factory resetting every device, and recreating everything from scratch. That seems way overkill and definitely not something I am in the mood to tackle. Assuming I reject that advice, I figured the experts here could help me with a few pointers toward a less drastic approach.

I will start with a description of the current setup:

There are a couple of dozen Insteon devices installed that control loads, some dimmable some not.
All Insteon-controlled loads are lighting except for one appliance module that controls a circulating pump for the hot water.
No sensors, thermostats, etc.
All devices are dual band:
 -  Some dimmer, some on/off plug-in modules
 -  Some dimmer, some relay wired switches  
 -  Some dimmer, some relay KPLs
 -  2413U PLM on the Houselinc computer
 -  Half-dozen remotelincs

No devices have X10 addresses.
No devices have manual links.
There are about 20 scenes. These seem to be equivalent to ISY scenes.  
All links are currently defined in Houselinc scenes.
Some scenes have as few as one responder device.
Some scenes have as many as a dozen responders and multiple controllers.
There are about 10 Houselinc "Events", which I gather are analogous to ISY "Programs".

The Houselinc half-link report verifies there are zero half-links in the setup.

My first thought is this simple-minded scenario:
  1.  Add all the devices to the ISY without setting any links
  2.  Recreate the same set of scenes as in Houselinc (thus establishing the same links)
  3.  Figure out how to translate the Houselinc "events" to ISY "programs"

 

[apostolakisl]

ISY can crawl your network.

 

There are instructions in the wiki.  

 

It will figure out all your scenes, but it won't figure out their names.  Nor will it figure out the names of any of your devices.  Once ISY finishes crawling your network, you will need to go through and figure out what is what.  Initially it will just name everything by its node number.

 

Also, ISY can only crawl your network based on links it finds in each device.  If you have "islands" of devices where none of them have links to any device outside of that island", then you will need to manually link at least one device in that "island".

 

I assume you already have a plm which would already be fully linked in.  I'm not sure what you do with this.  I'm thinking you need to factory reset the plm?  Maybe not, someone else may have more info.  

[AZPhil]

I was just reading the manual, and saw that feature!  When I add a device, there is an option "add devices found in links and keep existing links". It says the option not only adds the devices but also automatically creates scenes! And now you imply it will do this recursively for my whole network? !!! 

 

I have resisted buying this device for a couple of years because of a whole slew of misconceptions about what it did. After a few days of trying to get the Insteon Hub2 to do anything useful I gave up in disgust on that toy, and decided to actually take a serious look at the ISY. Once I really looked into it was almost immediately obvious that it did everything Houselinc did plus what the Hub was claimed to do.

 

Serendipitously, this epiphany occurred in the midst of a Smarthome 20% off Insteon sale, and I discovered that it applied not only to the Insteon PLM, but also the ISY it attaches to. Out came the card!!!

 

Now I am like a kid waiting for Xmas to arrive,

[apostolakisl]

In truth, with the number of devices and scenes you have, it wouldn't be a very big job to factory reset and start from scratch.  But if you have a clean slate of links on all your devices, it should work out just fine.

 

You'll find that adding devices and creating scenes from scratch in ISY is pretty quick.  Where things slow down is the complexities we come up with when writing programs.

[larryllix]

I totally agree with apostolakisl here.

I would factory reset each device, one at a time, and link it to ISY. Then after all devices are linked in and managed by ISY with sane names etc., create scenes and drag and drop your devices into them. ISY is an excellent management tool for Insteon devices and makes it really easy and quick. Most of the problems I have had with Insteon has been with new devices that I didn't facory reset. X10 codes can linger in some devices right from the factory. I have had an MS send opposite commands.

 

Some of your scenes may end up being direct conrol via programs as you learn how to apply logic and conditions to your trigger events. I prefer programs operating individual or groups of devices over scenes, as long as too much Insteon traffic isn't required to do it, and speed isn't required.

 

On that vein, I use scenes between MSes and lamps to turn them on for response speed but programs to turn them off and control their brightness level based on various conditions. Typically very dim and short cycles overnight and full on, with longer cycles, during the day.

 

Welcome to the forums and ISY. You're gonna' like it!

[stusviews]

Virtually all who selected "keep existing links" have run into difficulties with some scenes not working correctly. That's because the ISY doesn't always recognize links created outside the ISY. And, as apostolakisl indicated, names of devices and scenes are not transferred. You'll end up with a jungle of unrecognized scene and device names (e.g., scene 7, scene 8, etc).

 

Factory reset and/or "remove existing links" is by far the best option. IMO, that'll save you hours and hours down the line.

 

I moved from HL to the ISY when I had less that 50 devices. I did a room at a time over several days.

[Brian H]

"Keep existing links" will also add all the Houselinc 2413U links in the modules in to the ISY994i setup. So you may get flaky results.

[paulbates]

Hi Phil and welcome to the UDI forums.

 

My story is similar to Stu's. I migrated to the ISY from a Homeseer and a Hub, and I tried both methods. I eventually reinstalled it all from scratch. There were too many issues, phantom scenes that I couldn't figure out...and it took a long time. I had around 45 devices at that time and it didn't take that long. You have to put the wireless devices (remotelincs) in linking mode anyway, there is not much time savings there anyway.

 

Like Stu indicated... room by room.. and then groups of devices with shared scenes. Pick a room, reset switches/remotelincs with shared scenes, add the devices, then add the scenes. If I were doing it over again, no question where I would start.

 

Paul

[AZPhil]

Thanks to all for your thoughts!  I can see this forum will be a terrific resource.

 

Two schools of thought emerge.  I can easily see both points of view.  The options seem to be:

 

Option A:  Recreate everything automatically by crawling the network. Obviously, there is at least SOME cleanup afterward. Renaming things at a bare minimum.

Some say the cleanup from this option is worse than starting over.

 

Option B:  Reset everything and start over from scratch.  Nice clean way to do things.  I see the advantages.

 

Here's my thought: 

If I choose Option A, it may well produce a dog's breakfast. However, if the implementation is so bad it is a fool's errand, why has it survived as an option?

On the other hand, it may reproduce my setup with minimal effort. At least that is the seductive promise. My setup would seem to be close to ideal for the network crawl.

 

The way I see it, Option A costs me nothing, in that it doesn't involve any work to initiate, and doesn't take away Option B as a backup strategy.

But, if I choose Option B from the get-go, I guarantee having to do a good bit of work, and I never learn whether Option A would have been easier.

 

My decision is I will start with A, and report my results in this thread. I have already picked out the KPL to start the crawl.

If the crawl produces a mess, maybe studying that mess leads me to suggest algorithms and/or options for improving the results this feature produces in the future.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

 

 

[AZPhil]

"Keep existing links" will also add all the Houselinc 2413U links in the modules in to the ISY994i setup. So you may get flaky results.

Totally expected. On another UDI thread I read, the commenter claimed he uses both HL and ISY concurrently and they get along just fine sharing control. (Presumably, there are no conflicting ISY programs and HL events.)

 

I presume if/when I shut down HL, I can simply remove the 2413U from the ISY configuration and it will then remove all of that PLM's links. I don't see a problem.

[Michel Kohanim]

HI AZPhil,

 

The reason it's still there has nothing to do with implementation (it's implemented 100% correctly) but a lot to do with all other tools (even manual) that may have been used to link devices prior to ISY: they create half links and many other aberrations. To rephrase, if you are certain your HL/Manual Linking created ALL the links properly (no half links, no dead devices still in links, all databases are clean and defragmented), this method will cut your migration to just a few button clicks and renaming the discovered nodes. On the other hand, if you are not sure - and this I can tell you from experience - prepare yourself for days of chasing after anomalies and aberrations.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[AZPhil]

HI AZPhil,

 

The reason it's still there has nothing to do with implementation (it's implemented 100% correctly) but a lot to do with all other tools (even manual) that may have been used to link devices prior to ISY: they create half links and many other aberrations. To rephrase, if you are certain your HL/Manual Linking created ALL the links properly (no half links, no dead devices still in links, all databases are clean and defragmented), this method will cut your migration to just a few button clicks and renaming the discovered nodes. On the other hand, if you are not sure - and this I can tell you from experience - prepare yourself for days of chasing after anomalies and aberrations.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hi Michel,

 

That is very useful information that really belongs in the full manual, in the section that describes the linking options when adding devices. A couple of currently unused 8-scene mini-remotes were still in HL linked to devices. These had been swapped out and replaced by 4-scene remotes. Because of your note, I have deleted those from HL.

 

As I pointed out in the thread start, my HL setup has zero half-links, and zero manual links. (I find arcane button pushing way too tedious and the antithesis of "smart".)

 

Having replaced a few wired-in devices using the "swap device" feature in HL, I know that will result in entries in the half-link report because swapping out a wired-in device obviously makes it impossible for the controller to delete links stored in the replaced device. HL presumes they are still there even if the device is deleted. However, it provides the ability to selectively erase them from the database.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi AZPhil,

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback and agreed: http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Link_Management_Menu#Add_Devices_Found_in_Links_and_keep_existing_links .

 

Again, from experience: I have never seen an HL installation with full links. I just hope you are right.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[AZPhil]

Well, the ISY arrived.  I now seem to be in installation hell. The hardware appears to be running OK.

(I see the ISY has one of those blue LEDs bright enough to see 4 blocks away that every new box seems to be equipped with. Next week I am putting all those LEDs inside a big cabinet, with all the powercables, power supplies, data cables, and the UPS. I am hopeful the lights will not be able to penetrate 0.75" Melamine. But, I digress.)

 

In case it matters, my desktop is running Win7 Ultimate 64-bit on an Intel i5. 

 

1.  I first tried to access the admin console following the advice at www.universal-devices.com/start. (Not easy to extract the relevant info from all the info irrelevant to my setup, but that is for another day) Finally found and clicked the link to:  http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Main_Page#Quick_Start_Guides

2.  Went through the clearing of java cache. That seemed to go OK.

3.  Downloaded admin.jnlp  with Firefox browser.

4.  Double clicked the file in Win Explorer, as instructed. Windows says it no idea what to do with the file type. Oops. Off script already. 

 

Proceeded to plan B:

1.  Clicked the link to http://isy

2.  It prompted for login.  I entered admin/admin. Accepted. So far so good!

3.  Clicked "admin console" on the menu.

4.  Page with huge type came up: "Please Keep This Window Open"

     Small type below that says:

      "Java 2+ Required"

Nothing else on the page.  This seems to be a hint UDI doesn't like my Java. 

The installed version of Java is Java 8 Update 121 (64-bit) dated April 6. Possibly not the absolute latest, but April is only last month.

Java 8 64-bit not compatible?

 

Hope someone knows what this result is all about. 

P.S. Forgot to mention, I despise Java. Hard to understand why I can't use a perfectly good http interface to configure this sucker. Sigh.

[stusviews]

That's the fault of the latest few versions of Firefox. Try starting here beginning with Step 2m1. Do not use Firefox. Or try with IE.

[AZPhil]

That's the fault of the latest few versions of Firefox. Try starting here beginning with Step 2m1. Do not use Firefox. Or try with IE.

Tried with IE.  Same screen is result.

 

I don't understand the step 2m1 advice.  I downloaded the 4.5.4 firmware, but the instructions are to use the admin console.  I can't get to the admin console.  Catch 22.

[AZPhil]

I used IE to install the latest version of Java (131).  After that I verified the install under IE and then was able to start the admin console in IE.  Now proceeding to the firmware update.

[AZPhil]

The console keeps logging me out!  Had to login again for the 4th time. With that behavior, a bit nervous about starting a firmware update,.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi AZPhil,

 

The console logs you out most probably because of firewall software:

http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=Configure_Firewall_Software ... it's best to try https so that you don't have to configure your firewall.

 

Also, please note that the forum is NOT tech support. We do have a dedicated staff for tech. So, if you are get into another hell, please do not hesitate to contact us and we'd be delighted to get you back to heaven.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[apostolakisl]

Are you running from the Java Applet?

 

Click on this link

 

http://isy.universal-devices.com/994i/4.5.4

 

It will download and install an icon on your desktop.  It will automatically find your ISy if it is on the same LAN.  This is independent of any browser.  If you are working remotely, you'll need to either get the ISY portal, or set up port forwarding and install a security certificate on your ISY so you can use https.  You shouldn't open up port 80 to your ISY as it invites hackers.  Or you can vpn tunnel into your home network and not worry about port forwarding and security certificates.

[AZPhil]

Are you running from the Java Applet?

 

Click on this link

 

http://isy.universal-devices.com/994i/4.5.4

 

It will download and install an icon on your desktop.  It will automatically find your ISy if it is on the same LAN.  This is independent of any browser.  If you are working remotely, you'll need to either get the ISY portal, or set up port forwarding and install a security certificate on your ISY so you can use https.  You shouldn't open up port 80 to your ISY as it invites hackers.  Or you can vpn tunnel into your home network and not worry about port forwarding and security certificates.

 

Sorry. On my system that link does NOT "put an icon on the desktop" using any browser. Using IE 11, it does launch the admin console, which I am using with success.

 

With Firefox (53) it does essentially nothing but present a web page, because the interface to Java is gone from Firefox since level 52 (for very good security reasons). 

 

I am using a desktop computer on a wired LAN.  Port 80 is certainly safe on my LAN. All ports incoming are firewalled on the router.

 

My router doesn't have any built-in VPN capability. I haven't given much thought yet to remote access. Most likely, I will set up an SSH server on a local computer using an obfuscated port and port forward through that to port 80 on the ISY.  I use an SSH tunnel to control my VPS in a command shell, and another tunnel to port forward both SMTP and IMAP access to the same server. 

[AZPhil]

Hi AZPhil,

 

Thanks so very much for the feedback and agreed: http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:Link_Management_Menu#Add_Devices_Found_in_Links_and_keep_existing_links .

 

Again, from experience: I have never seen an HL installation with full links. I just hope you are right.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

At some point, I was prompted to allow the admin console through the firewall. That may have been when I requested the firmware. No logouts after that.  

 

The firmware update went great. After that finished I cleaned out the cache, relaunched the admin console and started the Insteon network crawl.

 

I consider the network crawl a great success. The crawl was slowed a small amount by the fact that apparently the address of every single device the old PLM had ever talked to was still stored in the PLM. (I have replaced about a dozen single-band devices with dual band and have no single band left in my system. Thus, there was at least a minute delay for each of these addresses until the isy declared a failure and moved on to the next address.

 

You warned me about those departed devices! Everything would have gone much faster if I had simply unplugged the old PLM before the crawl. However, those addresses had no impact on the results, they only slowed the crawl.

 

The network crawl took about 10-15 minutes including loading all of the devices into the isy. It took another 10 minutes or so to create the scenes.

 

I spent about an hour renaming devices. At least half of that was getting acquainted with the console while searching the manual on my second monitor. This was also slowed down from my having so many keypads (wired and mini-remote) and the unfamiliarity with the naming conventions in the isy. Naming every button on a keypad is a new experience I wasn't quite prepared for. However, that is ultimately a great advantage since it maps directly to actual usage of the buttons.  

 

By the way, the PLM is plugged into a surge protected outlet on a UPS. With everything wireless, Insteon is so much easier (and faster)!  I started running the old USB PLM that way about a month ago and there hasn't been a hiccup, so I felt safe doing that with the new one. 

 

[apostolakisl]

Sorry. On my system that link does NOT "put an icon on the desktop" using any browser. Using IE 11, it does launch the admin console, which I am using with success.

 

With Firefox (53) it does essentially nothing but present a web page, because the interface to Java is gone from Firefox since level 52 (for very good security reasons). 

 

I am using a desktop computer on a wired LAN.  Port 80 is certainly safe on my LAN. All ports incoming are firewalled on the router.

 

My router doesn't have any built-in VPN capability. I haven't given much thought yet to remote access. Most likely, I will set up an SSH server on a local computer using an obfuscated port and port forward through that to port 80 on the ISY.  I use an SSH tunnel to control my VPS in a command shell, and another tunnel to port forward both SMTP and IMAP access to the same server. 

 

That is a link to a download.  You need to open the download which installs the applet on your desktop.

[AZPhil]

I was dragged away from setting up the isy to do higher priority stuff. Just getting back to it now. 

 

When I left off, I had renamed all of the discovered devices in the network crawl. That worked out fine except the mini-keypads. Not surprised that I had to manually add those. 

I have started slogging through the automatically created scenes (from the net crawl) hoping to rename based on recognizing controllers and responders. 

I have already renamed six that were obvious.

 

However, there seems to be some weirdness. There are many more scenes than were in HL. Trying to get to the bottom that.

1. Several scenes show mini-controllers as responders. I have been under the impression that a mini-controller cannot be a responder in any scene. If a UDI person is lurking, perhaps (s)he can shed some light on this? 
2. The mini-controller in the TV room has been set up with its buttons always on.  The purpose of that is to be able to switch among various lighting schemes. The isy recognized it as a 2342-222 set up as "8-Scene non-Toggle" with no indication whether buttons are always on or always off.  Two of the buttons (A and B ) control the same set of lights, each button turns on a different HL-defined scene with different light levels and different ramp rates. The isy has combined these scenes into one scene and included both buttons in the scene. The different attributes are associated with the appropriate button in the scene.  Seems an odd way to show it, but it does capture the way the scenes work. It also has the other PLM twice in the scene, with the same settings, so perhaps it actually simply reflects how a PLM views scenes that share devices. 

[lilyoyo1]

This is why everyone recommended factory resetting your devices. The easy way sounds like a time saver but in reality (from others experience) it actually takes more time and it never goes as clean as you hope. The additional scenes could be from older devices not erased from the old plm itself. Also the way the ISY creates the scenes, I've found it to be a mess to say the least. By adding the devices on my own, I can create my scenes and folders exactly the way I want