Anyone else hating their Ecobees now?

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, carealtor said:

Respectfully disagree.  Mine are set to minimum with all 5 functions turned off.  My stats constantly show (for example) the setting is 78, the temperature is 79, and the AC is not running.  This was not the case before eco+ came along.

You can fool yourself by using the temperature shown on any thermostat. I have used several Honeywell, Insteon, Venstar, and ecobees stats and none of them show the temperature accurately at all times.
The thermostats attempt to short cycle, or lengthen cycle, or compensate somehow for outside temperatures, weather, humidity, or other comfort affecting factor. Instead fo using another register for the result they use the same register that appears on the front of the thermostat and the human sees the fabricated and fictitious resultant instead of the real sensed temperature of the room.

If you watch the temperature shown you will see it change when the HVAC cycling happens. Using a dozen other sensors mounted very near by the stat, you will notice they do not change accordingly. Of course some response will be noted minutes later as the HVAC system affects the air.

Another factor that affects the apparent reading to the user is the electronics inside the stat, especially smart units with an RF transmitter (WiFi) inside them. Most use various techniques to insulate the senor from the electronics heat but it still fails. Then the manufacturer may attempt to compensate the senor by subtracting a few degree, effectively "fudging" the displayed temperature. This may work fine until a breeze comes along in the room nd takes away the electronics heat sensed. Now the stat reading (and control temperature) jumps up by sometimes 4-5 degrees F on some stats I have tested.

Now the user or spouse comes along, sees this high temperature decide we need to turn the stat temperature down. The yoyo syndrome begins.
Get a cheaper  On/Off switch.

If you have a thermostat that is mounted directly over the wire hole in the plaster/drywall with wire holes into the electronics, get a different brand.

Edited September 1, 2019 by larryllix

[TexMike]

Agree, I don't use my downstairs stat temp in any of of my comfort settings. Like many houses it's in a bad location, in a hallway under a return air intake, I only use remote sensor temps to get a more accurate reading and prevent short cycling. However, it doesn't seem to address the original subject of eco+. The temp displayed on the ecobee is based on sensors participating in the comfort setting, not the reading on just that stat.

[larryllix]

10 minutes ago, TexMike said:

Agree, I don't use my downstairs stat temp in any of of my comfort settings. Like many houses it's in a bad location, in a hallway under a return air intake, I only use remote sensor temps to get a more accurate reading and prevent short cycling. However, it doesn't seem to address the original subject of eco+. The temp displayed on the ecobee is based on sensors participating in the comfort setting, not the reading on just that stat.

Yes ecobee displays the average temperature of the sensors enabled, but it is still fudged by internal algorithms is not necessarily an accurate display of the sensor temperatures.  Using that reading, to establish your ecobee is not obeying your settings, is fooling yourself. This is not just true of ecobees but every brand I have experienced, so far.

An independent and accurate thermometer, placed very close to the stat, not over top of the heat generating circuitry, and the same distance off the wall, must be used to access whether your stat is actually doing your deepest desires. The face readout is just for looks. Comparisons between the off wall position and touching wall can be different by 3 degrees F, from my experiments.

Edited September 1, 2019 by larryllix

[paulbates]

4 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Yes ecobee displays the average temperature of the sensors enabled, but it is still fudged by internal algorithms is not necessarily an accurate display of the sensor temperatures.  Using that reading, to establish your ecobee is not obeying your settings, is fooling yourself. This is not just true of ecobees but every brand I have experienced, so far.

An independent and accurate thermometer, placed very close to the stat, not over top of the heat generating circuitry, and the same distance off the wall, must be used to access whether your stat is actually doing your deepest desires. The face readout is just for looks. Comparisons between the off wall position and touching wall can be different by 3 degrees F, from my experiments.

Assuming the ecobee allows calibration? I've moved one thermostat to a good location because it was possible, used averaging in one case and only the remote in the other case, where the thermostat is in the upper landing of a stairwell that gets a fair share of sun. Then I used temperature and humidify calibration to adjust out any location specific problems.

Paul

 

[larryllix]

41 minutes ago, paulbates said:

Assuming the ecobee allows calibration? I've moved one thermostat to a good location because it was possible, used averaging in one case and only the remote in the other case, where the thermostat is in the upper landing of a stairwell that gets a fair share of sun. Then I used temperature and humidify calibration to adjust out any location specific problems.

Paul

 

Sure. Ecobee allows calibration in 0.3 degree steps but what temperature situation  would you calibrate it to? That was the point. The temperature displayed on the front of any thermostat is not the air temperature sensed around the stat, only a fudged temperature to cause the stat to cycle with a cycle length to cause the room to become close to the setpoint, after cycling.
If the stat determines you have overshoot it may fudge the displayed temperature up higher than it senses to cause a shorter cycle.
If the stat senses previous undershoot, it may fudge the displayed temperature lower than it senses to cause a longer run cycle.
This can be observed by watching the displayed temperature when most stats start a heat or cool cycle and the displayed temperature jumps up several degrees. I have observed up to 5 degree F on some stats. The temperature hasn't changed but the display has. Which one would you calibrate to another thermometer? One temperature always has to be wrong on the display.

[cswelin]

On 8/28/2019 at 12:38 AM, carealtor said:

This Eco+ thing they have forced on us is awful.  It can't be turned off completely.   I have it set at the minimum setting and the bedroom is still too warm every night now.  If I wanted it to be 79 degrees, I would have programmed it be 79 degrees.  I want it 78 degrees.  I don't appreciate the Ecobee overlords insisting that they know better than I do what temperature it should be.

Darn wish I saw this post earlier.

The eco+ execution was terrible, absolutely terrible! however, it CAN be turned off completely.  eco+ is really just a rebrand (not a feature itself) of all the smart features with the addition of a few new ones.

If you want to turn eco+ off entirely you need to toggle each individual feature off or the ones you don't want off in the mobile app (under eco+ -> advanced settings). The Thermostat firmware doesn't have the advanced settings as of yet.

On 8/28/2019 at 5:10 PM, carealtor said:

It is not voluntary.  Even your quote from the website only says you can select Minimum Savings...  which is not the same as turning it off.  There is no "off" setting.  The minimum can still override your settings by 1 degree if it wants too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ecobee/comments/cmludy/eco_ecostupid/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ecobee/comments/ckw8cj/how_to_disable_eco/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ecobee/comments/ci8gpt/ecobee_ecoplus_is_stupid/

 

The slider only applies to a few features, Demand Response and Time of use, so if you have those two features off the slider is meaning less, in the future the slider may apply, but it wont always be temperature related (UX will happen to explain this).

For example, Smart & away would be time related instead of Temperature (note this isn't implemented).

 

Feel free to ping me if you have ecobee issues, ideally iOS

Colin

ecobee iOS engineer

Edited October 15, 2019 by cswelin
More replies & typos

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Colin, thanks so very much for posting.

We have a pilot with a large utility. Is there an easier way for turning off DR and TOU?

With kind regards,
Michel

[cswelin]

22 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Hi Colin, thanks so very much for posting.

We have a pilot with a large utility. Is there an easier way for turning off DR and TOU?

With kind regards,
Michel

For TOU you should be able to just toggle off the feature under Advanced Settings in the mobile app (Thermostat -> Menu -> eco+ -> Time of Use)

If you're enrolled in a Demand Response rebate program the only way to get out of that is to contact your utility   since you're receiving a kickback for being enrolled. 

Colin

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Colin,

Thanks so very much! For this project, the utility made sure that none of the participants were on any DR or other programs. So, all we have to do is to follow your instructions above. I appreciate you input very much as this is a very important project for us.

With kind regards,
Michel

[larryllix]

Many forums have rumblings with users posting they will dump their ecobee thermostats because of this.

Some are dumping their Nest thermostats due to a similar loss of control issue.

[Bumbershoot]

16 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Many forums have rumblings with users posting they will dump their ecobee thermostats because of this.

Some are dumping their Nest thermostats due to a similar loss of control issue.

Yep, thanks to @larryllix, I'm a former Nest user who is now happily running a Venstar t7900 connected to my ISY through NodeLink.  As of yet, I haven't found a downside to this setup.  I really value/prefer the local API that Venstar provides.  I've added a few remote sensors, and the house is generally more comfortable.

[lilyoyo1]

49 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Many forums have rumblings with users posting they will dump their ecobee thermostats because of this.

Some are dumping their Nest thermostats due to a similar loss of control issue.

I won't be replacing my ecobees unless one of them goes out. At that point, if Glas has an open API, i'd switch to that. If not, I would get another ecobee. 

I have been moving away from Google due to the changes they are making. I can't fault them for making moves that helps the avg consumer since they are the majority. Unfortunately they've forgotten the most loyal ones are our community (techies). Their plan no longer fits my plan. 

[larryllix]

20 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I won't be replacing my ecobees unless one of them goes out. At that point, if Glas has an open API, i'd switch to that. If not, I would get another ecobee. 

I have been moving away from Google due to the changes they are making. I can't fault them for making moves that helps the avg consumer since they are the majority. Unfortunately they've forgotten the most loyal ones are our community (techies). Their plan no longer fits my plan. 

I have tried many brands and the ecobees are the most stable temperature sensing. I am a total control temperature freak and the ecobees have given me most of that. I have disabled all the automatic "Follow Me" and "Automatic Home/Away" features because it takes away control and causes  my temperatures to wander when I don't want them too. With about 2 hours per degree change response, none of that can possibly work in my home.

If ecobee takes away my precision control with it's 0.1 degree sensing, I would dump them also and go back to my commercial Tekmar $tat$, without any remote control. I could always resort to the old X10 trick with a remote controlled heater underneath the stat. I would know what I was getting.  

I also subscribe to TOU energy usage. I use as much electrical energy as I can, during the day. My PV panels generate it cheaper than they credit me with for the surplus. Yup, I'm different due to economic reasons and they refuse to give me TOU billing or credits.

[lilyoyo1]

48 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I have tried many brands and the ecobees are the most stable temperature sensing. I am a total control temperature freak and the ecobees have given me most of that. I have disabled all the automatic "Follow Me" and "Automatic Home/Away" features because it takes away control and causes  my temperatures to wander when I don't want them too. With about 2 hours per degree change response, none of that can possibly work in my home.

If ecobee takes away my precision control with it's 0.1 degree sensing, I would dump them also and go back to my commercial Tekmar $tat$, without any remote control. I could always resort to the old X10 trick with a remote controlled heater underneath the stat. I would know what I was getting.  

I also subscribe to TOU energy usage. I use as much electrical energy as I can, during the day. My PV panels generate it cheaper than they credit me with for the surplus. Yup, I'm different due to economic reasons and they refuse to give me TOU billing or credits.

I'm different in that I don't want to do any monitoring. We didn't spend all this money on making things efficient to not enjoy the "fruits of our labor". 

[paulbates]

6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm different in that I don't want to do any monitoring. We didn't spend all this money on making things efficient to not enjoy the "fruits of our labor". 

Same. Automation on HVAC fan cycling to keep the air fresh and run through the HEPA 13 swhen the units aren't cycling much (spring/fall), or to flatten out temps for the extremes

[larryllix]

6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm different in that I don't want to do any monitoring. We didn't spend all this money on making things efficient to not enjoy the "fruits of our labor". 

Doesn't your ISY monitor things? Were you are referring to human (manual)  monitoring?

[larryllix]

11 minutes ago, paulbates said:

Same. Automation on HVAC fan cycling to keep the air fresh and run through the HEPA 13 swhen the units aren't cycling much (spring/fall), or to flatten out temps for the extremes

Then you are monitoring with your ISY. I think the response was confused by my post.

[lilyoyo1]

25 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Doesn't your ISY monitor things? Were you are referring to human (manual)  monitoring?

I was referring to manual monitoring. The isy is part of the investment so I would expect it to do what I want and expect it to do

Edited October 18, 2019 by lilyoyo1

[cswelin]

9 hours ago, larryllix said:

Many forums have rumblings with users posting they will dump their ecobee thermostats because of this.

Some are dumping their Nest thermostats due to a similar loss of control issue.

 In all honesty, a lot of users are misinformed and assume any little thing is caused by eco+,  there's an example of this in this thread. 

There's no loss of control when it comes to eco+,  sadly, our execution was trash and the UI/UX still is, but work is being done to correct that.

 

In the end people hate change, there will always be flack when something new comes out.

Edited October 18, 2019 by cswelin

[carealtor]

I don't know exactly when it happened, but I see on my ecobee app now that eco+ is "indefinitely disabled".  So it looks like ecobee changed course slightly and put in the ability to disable the whole eco+ system.  Is this the same as just minimizing all the eco+ settings?  Maybe.  I don't really know.  But the voices of the masses were heard.

So to anyone who might come to the decision to not go with ecobee because of this thread, you should know that the basis for my original rant is no longer an issue.  And I can again recommend ecobee as a great thermostat. 

[larryllix]

My ecobee app forced me to accept the eco+ upgrade a few weeks ago but I haven't seen any sign of it on the stats yet. I turned the app settings to minimum and then disabled all the eco+ features as they all seemed useless to me. When the setup asked me who my utility was, I bypassed the answer informing it I didn't know. That may be why no sign of it ever showed up on my two stats.

Most of the setup was about utility peak control and I run the majority from my solar panels and try to confine as much load as possible to peak times of the day, when the sun is best. I am not able to get TOU billing because they would have to pay me more income for excess power back into the grid.

Edited August 17, 2020 by larryllix

[MOCAGTE]

after getting tired of struggling with the temperature after the eco+ update, I went on and blocked the devices from the internet, this solves the problem of the disabling as once you disable in the thermostat, they can't re-enabled back thru the application. as the app didn't want to disable it until it was 'disabled' in national grid, but nat grid didn't have any thermostat enrolled in their side. as of now I got some fancy 'not-so-smart' thermostat as it cant get the weather and the app doesn't work anymore, but I can control thru smarthings and alexa.

 

 

[larryllix]

28 minutes ago, MOCAGTE said:

after getting tired of struggling with the temperature after the eco+ update, I went on and blocked the devices from the internet, this solves the problem of the disabling as once you disable in the thermostat, they can't re-enabled back thru the application. as the app didn't want to disable it until it was 'disabled' in national grid, but nat grid didn't have any thermostat enrolled in their side. as of now I got some fancy 'not-so-smart' thermostat as it cant get the weather and the app doesn't work anymore, but I can control thru smarthings and alexa.

 

 

I seem to more sensitive to temperature fluctuations than many other people.  I bought an ecobee thermostat because of it's internal accuracy to 0.1 degrees C and calibratability to 0.3C . Then, I have the on/off differential set to 0.5C because the ecobee thermostats can do it. Most other stats cannot switch on/off that tight. Even then I can detect the fluctuations of the sensors wandering in calibration several times per year.

If I had to allow somebody else to make my temperatures wander by 1, 2 or 3 degrees C I would have bought a different brand. If is is ever forced upon me I will remove my two ecobee stats and find another brand. My ecobee3 and ecobee4 stats replaced a network connected commercial set of thermostats worth $1300, $1100, and $400 x 2 for more minor zones. I bought ecobee for function and mostly accuracy and control. Then I would attempt to get a class action suit together online, for purchase compensation from a company that deliberately destroyed the best functions of the stat without my permission or involvement.

Luckily all these new ah-hem "features" are still optional to the user, so far.

Edited August 17, 2020 by larryllix

[io_guy]

The ecobee is a great thermostat, hardware and app-driven software wise.  But it is utter crap in other areas.  ECO+ is truly a class action lawsuit waiting to happen in the US (we'll never see one in Canada).

Their API is extremely thorough but absolutely terrible for home automation.  They've been asked (screamed at) for almost 10 years to make a simple local API available for HA use but completely ignore it stating it wouldn't be secure or they don't want to risk performance of the stat.  Yeah ok.  They just want users to remain cloud connected so they can force things like ECO+ on us.  

Why they created non-stat products is beyond me.  There's a flooded market for them and with their cloud-only based API (with terrible server reliability) well known to the HA community now, I just don't see it being successful.  

[JWilliam]

It is not possible to set or lock Ecobee thermostat from app on your smartphone. You can only configure the Access Control setting on the Ecobee unit itself or log into your account on Ecobee’s web portal.