Insteon being discontinued?

[MrBill]

16 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'll send you a picture this evening. I hate looking at stuff i don't physically have to use so the smaller it is, the easier to hide

you sound like my son.   Although I hide stuff from view... i should show the top of my kitchen cabinet sometime.....  well no I shouldn't it's grown so  much it doesn't look neat and clean anymore: ethernet switch, wifi access point, ISY 994, PLM, Screenlogic wireless adapter,  Autellis Pool Control, wireless tags tag manager, hue hub, cable STB, Apple TV, HDMI Switch, HDMI splitter, Hue Hub, Harmony Hub, .  It started out nice and i try to manage cords to make cleaning easier but yea it's messy now... all you can see from the ground tho is a few blinking lights in the darkness of the night (although the big blue beacon of home automation (i.e. the blue LED on the ISY) has tape on it).

[lilyoyo1]

59 minutes ago, MrBill said:

you sound like my son.   Although I hide stuff from view... i should show the top of my kitchen cabinet sometime.....  well no I shouldn't it's grown so  much it doesn't look neat and clean anymore: ethernet switch, wifi access point, ISY 994, PLM, Screenlogic wireless adapter,  Autellis Pool Control, wireless tags tag manager, hue hub, cable STB, Apple TV, HDMI Switch, HDMI splitter, Hue Hub, Harmony Hub, .  It started out nice and i try to manage cords to make cleaning easier but yea it's messy now... all you can see from the ground tho is a few blinking lights in the darkness of the night (although the big blue beacon of home automation (i.e. the blue LED on the ISY) has tape on it).

I even cover up the blinking lights. I've turned off the LEDs on my motion sensors as well. ?

Edited August 19, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I even cover up the blinking lights. I've turned off the LEDs on my motion sensors as well. ?

I would, but the only time they are visible is after bedtime, when the kitchen accent lighting is still on in the evening the reflection on the ceiling from the LEDs can't be seen.

[lilyoyo1]

31 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I would, but the only time they are visible is after bedtime, when the kitchen accent lighting is still on in the evening the reflection on the ceiling from the LEDs can't be seen.

Mine varies. In my kitchen, they're hidden underneath the cabinets.

In the spare bedrooms, they're underneath the beds. In our master bedroom, our night stands are open in the center so I put them in the back of those. The bedroom sensors turn on the underbed lights when someone gets out of bed so they aren't needed for occupancy. 

In the closest and half baths, I have them on the ceiling in such a manner where they can be seen if one looks for them but aren't noticeable. 

[MrBill]

9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Mine varies. In my kitchen, they're hidden underneath the cabinets.

In the spare bedrooms, they're underneath the beds. In our master bedroom, our night stands are open in the center so I put them in the back of those. The bedroom sensors turn on the underbed lights when someone gets out of bed so they aren't needed for occupancy. 

In the closest and half baths, I have them on the ceiling in such a manner where they can be seen if one looks for them but aren't noticeable. 

Ahhh we have no motion detectors.  the dogs would turn too many things on...haha

[lilyoyo1]

22 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Ahhh we have no motion detectors.  the dogs would turn too many things on...haha

That's part of why mine are under the cabinets in the kitchen. Too high up for the dogs to set off by walking around.

One of them would figured out how to get the closet light to turn on so I programmed it to stop after bedtime. Now she doesn't bother going in there. Lol. The bathroom light comes on so low, it wouldn't wake any one up anyway. Thank God for the warm glows. ?

[Goose66]

23 hours ago, MrBill said:

2 ethernet hubs as the PLM

Curious what do you mean using 2 ethernet hubs as a PLM?

My primary issues with the current hub(s) as an interface for a nodeserver is 1) the only local interface is directly to the embedded PLM, and 2) there appears to be no two-way (e.g.,  MQTT, sockets, or UDP broadcasts) protocol. What would make the most useful device for a nodeserver interface would be a hub with a local, two-way API. That way, all Insteon device installation, device configuration, scene building, network debugging, and the like could be done using the Insteon apps (and wouldn't require UDI to constantly keep up with the protocols and new device configurations which Insteon is less and less willing to share) while the ISY could integrate the Insteon devices and scenes with all other devices through nodeservers (and the native ZWave support). Also, cloud-based interfaces, especially ones that require polling, are simply a non-starter.

If the PLMs were to be used as a local, synchronous interface, then the nodeserver developer would have to redevelop all the work already done by UDI for device installation, configuration, etc. and run into all the same problems they have. It wouldn't be pretty.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Goose66

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Curious what do you mean using 2 ethernet hubs as a PLM?

You'll have to go dissect the PyInsteon project on github to see how they did it.  From the ReadMe of that project:

Quote

This is a Python package to interface with an Insteon Modem. It has been tested to work with most USB or RS-232 serial based devices such as the 2413U, 2412S, 2448A7 and Hub models 2242 and 2245.

Models 2242 and 2245 are Insteon hubs with only Ethernet connectivity, that is, no serial port of any type.  I gave my original 2245 to my son, if I still had it I'd load up the native Insteon integration on HA and give it a try.

[Goose66]

15 minutes ago, MrBill said:

You'll have to go dissect the PyInsteon project on github to see how they did it.  From the ReadMe of that project:

Models 2242 and 2245 are Insteon hubs with only Ethernet connectivity, that is, no serial port of any type.  I gave my original 2245 to my son, if I still had it I'd load up the native Insteon integration on HA and give it a try.

Ah - you are saying it works with two different Insteon hubs, not that you need 2 hubs to work as an Insteon PLM.

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Ah - you are saying it works with two different Insteon hubs, not that you need 2 hubs to work as an Insteon PLM.

correct.  My wording there wasn't the best.  Point is the Hub that we all dislike could be used in place of a PLM apparently.  I'm half tempted to spin up a home assistant instance on a pi and try it next time I'm at my son's house, but I don't think any of my unused Pi's are 3's right now (which is an HA prerequisite, with 4 preferred) 

[bpwwer]

The hub is simply a PLM with an ethernet/web server bolted on to the front instead of a serial or USB interface.  From a protocol perspective, all three are the same.

Adding support in the Polisy based ISY firmware may not be that difficult depending on how support for the USB PLM was implemented.  I suspect the largest road block to adding support for the hub would be business related, I.E. what new business would UDI gain by adding support for the hub and would that offset the development costs?

There is hub developer docs available on pyinsteon github listed above: https://github.com/pyinsteon/pyinsteon/blob/dev/docs/dev_guides/PLM-HUB/2242-222dev-062013-en.pdf

[MrBill]

14 minutes ago, bpwwer said:

what new business would UDI gain by adding support for the hub and would that offset the development costs?

The answer to that question most likely largely depends on how similar the new ninsteon hub is.. I know Michel doesn't want to support anything new without documentation from smartlabs, but on the other hand if the new ninsteon hub is quickly supported in pyinsteon it would almost be a foolish business-wise to ignore that fact.

[Michel Kohanim]

I thought I had changed the subject alas it seems none of my machinations worked ... ?

The answer to the question is: never! The reasons:

1. Who knows when they are going to discontinue the hub? 
2. Unlike other companies, we offer support. Supporting a HUB which adds another point of failure (network) would add to support costs (in addition to development and testing)
3. The beauty of the PLM was that we could get status feedback from devices without having to query them. The hub is poll only. So, we will have to add polling to get status of devices. This will kill Control in programs and adds 1000 of support calls

All and all, very UGH. Or, UGHLY. Or UGLY. Or any permutation of these letters that conveys my utter ?

Apologies for being so candid.

A better option would be to take the hubs apart and bring out the serial signals and then use it as a PLM.

With kind regards,
Michel

[upstatemike]

6 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

I thought I had changed the subject alas it seems none of my machinations worked ... ?

The answer to the question is: never! The reasons:

1. Who knows when they are going to discontinue the hub? 
2. Unlike other companies, we offer support. Supporting a HUB which adds another point of failure (network) would add to support costs (in addition to development and testing)
3. The beauty of the PLM was that we could get status feedback from devices without having to query them. The hub is poll only. So, we will have to add polling to get status of devices. This will kill Control in programs and adds 1000 of support calls

All and all, very UGH. Or, UGHLY. Or UGLY. Or any permutation of these letters that conveys my utter ?

Apologies for being so candid.

A better option would be to take the hubs apart and bring out the serial signals and then use it as a PLM.

With kind regards,
Michel

This subject can never be changed and it will never die.

[Goose66]

41 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

This subject can never be changed and it will never die.

I mean, could it be because so many of us that are solidly in the UDI ecosystem have thousands of $$ invested in Insteon? Of course the subject will never die.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

This subject can never be changed and it will never die.

However much some of us may want to    

[Brian H]

4 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

I thought I had changed the subject alas it seems none of my machinations worked ... ?

The answer to the question is: never! The reasons:

1. Who knows when they are going to discontinue the hub? 
2. Unlike other companies, we offer support. Supporting a HUB which adds another point of failure (network) would add to support costs (in addition to development and testing)
3. The beauty of the PLM was that we could get status feedback from devices without having to query them. The hub is poll only. So, we will have to add polling to get status of devices. This will kill Control in programs and adds 1000 of support calls

All and all, very UGH. Or, UGHLY. Or UGLY. Or any permutation of these letters that conveys my utter ?

Apologies for being so candid.

A better option would be to take the hubs apart and bring out the serial signals and then use it as a PLM.

With kind regards,
Michel

The 2442 has a separate Ethernet board connected to the main board. Probably TTL signals. I did see years ago someone removed the Ethernet board and used a serial board from a 2412S or 2413S to interface it. To get the RS232 signals. With a 2413S serial board preferred as it has a fast speed link database memory chip on it.

The 2245 everything is on one board so you would have to find the signals and probably convert them to RS232

[DAlter01]

3 hours ago, Brian H said:

The 2442 has a separate Ethernet board connected to the main board. Probably TTL signals. I did see years ago someone removed the Ethernet board and used a serial board from a 2412S or 2413S to interface it. To get the RS232 signals. With a 2413S serial board preferred as it has a fast speed link database memory chip on it.

The 2245 everything is on one board so you would have to find the signals and probably convert them to RS232

@Brian H

Ah, I understand, hook up one thingy up to some other parts, and presto...?  You realize of course that you and maybe 5, possibly 10, other people that have ever visited this forum are within the neighborhood of your understanding of the electronics, the signals they generate, and how to repair/manipulate the same?  The forum is lucky to have your input.  When you post it usually is about the internal parts within the boxes and it reminds me of the Radio Shack transister radio kit I got when I was a kid and built a working radio.  I followed the instructions just fine but.... did I really understand the reason for each specific transister, its routing, and the nuance of how the pieces were interelated in order to do something different with the same parts, ah not really.   I suspect you did.  The above post you wrote isn't as technical as I've seen you write but was enough to remind me of my Radio Shack youth and so I figured I'd write this up. 

Keep it coming, I'm sure your thoughts have sparked many ideas of how to do something unique to solve a problem.  However, I, and probably many other Insteon/UDI users, need these companies to build fully functional boxes that can be bought off the shelf and work together on day one.  Thankfully, there is a stable full of beta testers to work out the kinks so that us less sophistacted types can play on the surface and create slick programming that works, otherwise, it would no longer be fun for types like me.  

Edited August 21, 2021 by DAlter01

[tibbar]

Can anyone point where to buy different colour buttons for keypads and paddles for dimmers, screwless plates.

They are impossible to find.

Because if the current Insteon line is not being discontinued (IC shortage or whatever) looks like all accessories are.

[upstatemike]

43 minutes ago, tibbar said:

Can anyone point where to buy different colour buttons for keypads and paddles for dimmers, screwless plates.

They are impossible to find.

Because if the current Insteon line is not being discontinued (IC shortage or whatever) looks like all accessories are.

You are correct. If Insteon was not being discontinued then those items that are not dependent on  scarce chips would still be available, but many of them are not available so....

[DAlter01]

5 hours ago, upstatemike said:

You are correct. If Insteon was not being discontinued then those items that are not dependent on  scarce chips would still be available, but many of them are not available so....

Well, the lull didn't last long.   And, here we go again.  Though, I can't fault @upstatemike logic on this.

[MrBill]

this conversation is getting old....

Insteon will live... just not with all the accessories and do-dads that its product line once had.   Switches and PLM's will exist.  Richmond Capital Partners is in business to make money for its shareholders, if a line item has stagnate occasional sales or even slow turnover it will be eliminated. 

A previous smartlabs catered to a niche market that brought products that a niche market wanted to buy.  The current Smartlabs owns the technology but its priorities are different, it makes money for shareholders.

[apostolakisl]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:05 AM, MrBill said:

this conversation is getting old....

Insteon will live... just not with all the accessories and do-dads that its product line once had.   Switches and PLM's will exist.  Richmond Capital Partners is in business to make money for its shareholders, if a line item has stagnate occasional sales or even slow turnover it will be eliminated. 

A previous smartlabs catered to a niche market that brought products that a niche market wanted to buy.  The current Smartlabs owns the technology but its priorities are different, it makes money for shareholders.

I don't understand why they don't make the niche items.  They already did the r and d.  It is just a matter of putting in the order.  They have very low volume and thus don't make any money on them, but what they do is attract a customer who wants a complete system.  That customer may buy one or two of the niche items, but then 100 of the standard items as part of their complete system.  They chose Insteon for the niche item and because of that, Insteon became their entire system.  The difference between Insteon of old and pretty much every other home automation company was the niche items.  Without those, they have no competitive advantage in a rapidly growing field of many.  In fact, being a small company with really no name recognition and a price point that isn't particularly competitive, they got nothing.  At $80 or whatever, I promise, they aren't losing money when they sell one of the niche items.  Probably they only pay $10-15.  Especially if they standardize the enclosure with the other mass produced items.  

[upstatemike]

A good point about niche items being more of a sales tool than a direct revenue stream. New customers who don't really know what they want or need look at a vendor with a large selection of devices and feel confident that they are looking at a robust ecosystem that is safe to invest in and that will likely do whatever they need it to down the road. The niche items can trigger an initial commitment to the brand even if that same customer never ends up buying any niche items at all.

It is better for stockholders to attract new customers than to worry about a few thaousand dollars of slow moving inventory.

[sorka]

On 9/7/2021 at 6:05 AM, MrBill said:

this conversation is getting old....

Insteon will live... just not with all the accessories and do-dads that its product line once had.   Switches and PLM's will exist.  Richmond Capital Partners is in business to make money for its shareholders, if a line item has stagnate occasional sales or even slow turnover it will be eliminated. 

A previous smartlabs catered to a niche market that brought products that a niche market wanted to buy.  The current Smartlabs owns the technology but its priorities are different, it makes money for shareholders.

The niche items are what drive new customers to adopting the entire line and to some extent keeps existing customers. 

 

But Insteon left large volume items on the table that they never made. For example, they never came out with an an LEG RGB controller. The MagicHome node server doesn't provide anywhere near the scene level integration of native insteon. I have RGB recessed strip lighting all over my home and Insteon still hasn't developed a general purpose multi channel low voltage module.