DennisC Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 16 hours ago, IT Solutions said: Thanks. I will need to go with 6 or 7 minutes as 3 time outs could make the run time of the program longer than 5 min. I just did a manual Query on a door and it came back unlocked. I sent a lock command and got back this: I sent a second lock command which worked, then a Query command which came back with locked. This is why we need to re-try lock commands before giving up and reporting a failure to lock a door. This is a good example of having communication problems. You need to improve the zwave mesh around that lock or any lock you are having issues with. As others have said, figure out the root cause of the communications issue. I have had my Schlage zwave lock for over 5 years and it has never failed to lock or unlock.
IT Solutions Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 @DennisC What model lock do you have?
DennisC Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 39 minutes ago, IT Solutions said: @DennisC What model lock do you have? Schlage FE469CNXV
IT Solutions Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 (edited) You have a deadbolt and we are having problems with ZWave door knobs. The Schlage deadbolt we have does work reliably. They likely have different ZWave chips and/or firmware in them. While the problem could be our ZWave network, the fact the everything on the network is reliable except these two locks suggests that is not the issue. On another note, we are quite sure Schlage has little to nothing to do with the ZWave technology in their locks. They likely outsource that, which is probably a good thing to some extent. That also mean each time they build a batch of locks, the could source the ZWave from a different vendor. That mean two locks with the same model number could work very differently on the same ZWave network. I have personally seen Dell desktop computers with the same model number and three different motherboards, which makes them very different computers. Having troubleshoot electronics (and other things) for almost 50 years, I can tell you the key to troubleshooting ANYTHING, is to look for what works, not for what does not work. Just last weekend we had bad switch on network that flooded the network making it very difficult to figure out which switch was bad. We took the network down to one switch so it was stable, then added one at a time until it went unstable, then removed the last switch we added, which made it stable again, so we know which switch was bad. Looking for what works, not what does not work, is especially important when there are multiple problems. I am troubleshooting a radiant floor heat problem this winter. Long ago I figured out we were dealing with two different problems, but since part of the systems is built into the floor, making changes to parts of the system is not easy. I think we identified one of the problems this week. We need to get that fixed before we make any more changes. Always change one thing at a time when troubleshooting. What does work on this ZWave network is EVERYTHING except these two locks. We have them to the point that they work over 90% of the time. They still NEVER report a change in status. The Schlage deadbolt we have does report a change in status, even if it is initiated with a turn of the knob. @DennisC, you are correct, we need to figure out the root cause of the problem, and everything points to it being the locks. The locks are on metal doors, which definitely does not help. Thank you for your ideas on this problem. Edited February 12, 2021 by IT Solutions
tibbar Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 @IT SolutionsDid you try putting the lock that does report into a location of a lock that does not?
IT Solutions Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 We have done a lot of moving things around and gotten a lot of results that do not make sense. For example, at one point the trouble locks would not work at all going through two repeaters, but would work going through one repeater. We ended up moving the ISY about half way between the locks so both would work at the same time. A wireless connection will NEVER be as reliable as a wired connection, period. As long as it works MOST of the time, and we can check when it does not work, that is all we can except from any wireless connection.
DennisC Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 11 minutes ago, IT Solutions said: We have done a lot of moving things around and gotten a lot of results that do not make sense. For example, at one point the trouble locks would not work at all going through two repeaters, but would work going through one repeater. We ended up moving the ISY about half way between the locks so both would work at the same time. A wireless connection will NEVER be as reliable as a wired connection, period. As long as it works MOST of the time, and we can check when it does not work, that is all we can except from any wireless connection. Your troubleshooting results do make sense, they just don't fit your predetermined conclusion. You are having a communications issue because of your mesh. It is time to stop and go back to the beginning. Add a dependable zwave repeater following the manufacturers instructions, not necessarily how you think it should be added. Aeotec Gen 7 repeater is a reliable example of what to use. Next you need to read the lock instruction manual and follow the procedure to factory reset the lock. Again, it is important to follow the manufacturers instructions. Follow this by moving the lock to within 2 feet of the ISY (this is very important step), exclude the lock from the ISY at least 2 times. On rare occasions it takes tow excludes to complete the process. Next, re-add the lock to the ISY, following the instructions. After the lock has be added move the lock back to its home and do an update neighbors. Only then, try locking and unlocking.
lilyoyo1 Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 The best remedy for this situation is to replace the locks. Hes already determined the locks do not send status so no amount of additional devices will change that (based on ops previous statements). There's nothing anyone can do to solve this issue unless they decide to replace the locks with something that does send status. Should this happen, then having a strong mesh network will come into play. Continuing to try and troubleshoot is a waste of time.
IT Solutions Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 @DennisC Does your Schlage FE469CNXV lock report back the status after being sent a Lock or Unlock command? What about if you lock or unlock it by turning the knob? Thank you. I have a call into Schlage Tech Support about the lock not automatically reporting status after a change, but I doubt I will ever get a call back. @lilyoyo1 I already stated we are not replacing the locks as that would require replacing a lot more than just the 5 that don't work. Lots of other mechanical locks keyed the same.
MrBill Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, IT Solutions said: @lilyoyo1 I already stated we are not replacing the locks as that would require replacing a lot more than just the 5 that don't work. Lots of other mechanical locks keyed the same. Your logic is faulty. Have the replacement locks keyed to whatever manual key you desire.
IT Solutions Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 @MrBill Do you know of a ZWave "door knob" other than Schlage that works with a Schlage key (and ZWave)?
IT Solutions Posted February 12, 2021 Author Posted February 12, 2021 @MrBill Do you know of a ZWave "door knob" other than Schlage that works with a Schlage key (and ZWave)?
DennisC Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 27 minutes ago, IT Solutions said: @DennisC Does your Schlage FE469CNXV lock report back the status after being sent a Lock or Unlock command? What about if you lock or unlock it by turning the knob? Thank you. I have a call into Schlage Tech Support about the lock not automatically reporting status after a change, but I doubt I will ever get a call back. @lilyoyo1 I already stated we are not replacing the locks as that would require replacing a lot more than just the 5 that don't work. Lots of other mechanical locks keyed the same. Yes, my lock reports status back whenever the door is locked or unlocked. I find it hard to believe Schalge would release a lock that doesn't report status after locking/unlocking.
lilyoyo1 Posted February 12, 2021 Posted February 12, 2021 1 hour ago, IT Solutions said: @lilyoyo1 I already stated we are not replacing the locks as that would require replacing a lot more than just the 5 that don't work. Lots of other mechanical locks keyed the same. Yes you have already stated that. As such, there is no good fix for your problem. 1
IT Solutions Posted February 13, 2021 Author Posted February 13, 2021 @MrBill do you know of a "door knob" ZWave (preferably ZWave Plus) lock that works correctly with ISY and a Schlage key? Thank you.
MrBill Posted February 13, 2021 Posted February 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, IT Solutions said: @MrBill do you know of a "door knob" ZWave (preferably ZWave Plus) lock that works correctly with ISY and a Schlage key? Thank you. I don't have any Z-wave locks. One of my doors has a magnetic lock, that I set up long before the current lock offerings became available. The reason I replied above is that I'm very aware of the fact that lock cylinders can be re-keyed. You can also often order locks keyed to a specific key code. or have a locksmith or even sometimes a hardware store re-key. Also many times the lock cylinder can be swapped out to a different brand. I'm not a locksmith but I do have rental properties and re-key all the locks between tenants myself. I purchased my Schlage pin kit originally to solve a problem, over the years it's saved me thousands. I don't know enough about Z-wave locks to advise you, but I read most threads on this forum and could clearly see that you were being short sited with your sweeping statements above. 1
IT Solutions Posted February 13, 2021 Author Posted February 13, 2021 @MrBill We have already looked into this. Locks from different manufacturers, with a few exceptions, are not compatible (i.e. can't be re-keyed to work with a different brand of key). On one door we used a Kwickset 99140-102 that covers the existing deadbolt inside knob and turns it. That was our best choice for that because that lock uses a Medeco Key. Medeco is a pick proof restricted distribution key systems that requires a special machine to duplicate. Only authorized dealers have the machines and can get blanks. Possession of a key alone is not supposed to allow a copy to be made. One must also have special authorization. That means a key can be issued to an employee, and when it comes back, one knows there is not an additional copy still out. Some commercial deadbolts use removeable cylinders that allows one to change the cylinder to be able to use a different key. This is what we did on our office front door. I too am not a locksmith, but too know how to rekey a lock, do master key systems, and I have a friend that is a 3rd generation locksmith so if I need answers, I know were to go. We do not know of every single ZWave lock available, and are still looking for a ZWave (preferable ZWave Plus) door knob lock that will work with ISY and take a Schlage key. So far, we have not found one, but it might be out there. The one we are using works most of the time, but does not report status changes to the lock.
hart2hart Posted February 13, 2021 Posted February 13, 2021 Schlage BE469ZP?Reports changes near 100% of the time with repeaters or or zwave devices to form a mesh.
IT Solutions Posted February 13, 2021 Author Posted February 13, 2021 @hart2hart Thank you, but that is a deadbolt, not a door knob. The Schlage deadbolt we have is working correctly, unless I turn the knob from lock to unlock a whole bunch of times rapidly (which I would not expect to work correctly). We need a door knob/lever.
lilyoyo1 Posted February 13, 2021 Posted February 13, 2021 I would contact schlage and ask them. They should know their product line
IT Solutions Posted February 13, 2021 Author Posted February 13, 2021 (edited) @lilyoyo1 Already did that, and they do not know their product line (at least the person I talked to did not). They blamed ISY (of course). Your expectations from vendors are overly optimistic?. Edited February 14, 2021 by IT Solutions
lilyoyo1 Posted February 13, 2021 Posted February 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, IT Solutions said: @lilyoyo1 Already did that, and they do not know their product line (at least the person I talked to did not). They blamed ISY (or course). Your expectations from vendors are overly optimistic?. It's not but since you have specific requirements, then it was worth the chance.
DennisC Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 @IT Solutions out of curiosity, could you check the box and the documentation that came with the door lock and see if any of it says "Connect" on it?
IT Solutions Posted February 14, 2021 Author Posted February 14, 2021 (edited) @DennisCIt does not. All is says is "Speaks ZWave". And it does, but not very well. This page says "Connected" on it: https://www.schlage.com/en/home/products/FE599NXCAMFFFACC.html You can find the documentation here: Installation Manual [PDF ] User Guide [PDF ] User Manual [PDF ] Warranty [PDF ] Edited February 14, 2021 by IT Solutions
DennisC Posted February 14, 2021 Posted February 14, 2021 For what it is worth, on the Schlage site, buried in the FAQ there is a question about using the zwave locks with Alexa. The response indicates all of the zwave locks that are part of the "Connected" line can be opened and closed by Alexa, work with their Nexia service and will report the user accessing the lock. It might be worth the time to contact Schlage again and attempt to speak with a more advanced person to question regarding status. I would think if the lock is reporting the user it also has status available.
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