Insteon Replacement?

[larryllix]

8 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

If the EMP hits, manual light switches will not work nor will your car.  Both will be out of "fuel".  The electricity grid will go down, for a long time, and the gas pumps will not work (no electricity and the pump's circuit boards will be fried).  Soooooo, might as well enjoy the tech up until the point in time that the EMP pulse hits, if it hits.

That's why UDI put the polisy in a completely shielded metal Faraday cage style  box. UDI knows something about the future EMPs coming.

Right @Michel Kohanim?

Edited December 28, 2021 by larryllix

[lilyoyo1]

7 hours ago, asbril said:

There are Pintos and Rolls Royces......... and BMW's in the middle.

But seriously it is absolutely understandable that you prefer C4, Ra3 over Zwave, and most likely if I were to start from zero, I would probably prefer Lutron switches over Zwave. I am not debating that there are better alternatives to Insteon than Zwave, and good for you that you can afford the Rolls Royce.

My only point is that  stating that one should prefer dumb switches over Zwave is for me a questionable opinion. Over the years you have made a good case of Insteon's superiority over Zwave and I respect your knowledge as well as your enormous contributions to this forum, but you are too rigid in your criticism of Zwave.

That's like saying you're too rigid against insteon because of the PLM. With their issues right now, it's obviously a wise decision but over the years, you've spent more time and money replacing zwave devices to get where insteon is at than you would've just swapping the PLM. 

I never told anyone what to do. I specifically stated what i would do. I'm not the only one that feels that way. Back when I first started, I ripped out quite a few zwave systems because the home owner hated the experience. There were a couple that was turned off from automation completely (ditto for insteon). 

 

[asbril]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's like saying you're too rigid against insteon because of the PLM.

You have a point, except that I don't say (or think) that dumb switches are better than Insteon.

I understand that most on ISY started with Insteon (or even X10 like me), built a complete Insteon setup and like the quality of the switches. I only had a few Insteon plugins and no switches when the PLM blew and I made the Zwave choice. Yes, I have had to replace a few of my Zwave switches and yes, different manufacturers give different quality, but overall I never regretted my choice.

My first video recorder was a Betamax and then I switched to VHS. Sounds familiar ?

If SH would have let others  make Insteon devices and PLM's they might now be sitting on a gold mine.

I am not blind to Zwave shortcomings and Zwave may also reach its EOL, but for those considering the after Insteon, Zwave is a decent alternative, especially when one is not an integrator or does not drive a Rolls Royce ?.

Edited December 28, 2021 by asbril

[upstatemike]

So one thing that might be worthwhile would be to define a "dumb" switch. A few years ago I converted the basement from Insteon to "dumb" Leviton motion sensors and removed all manual switching options. They are not completely dumb though because each room has a relay that operates with the lights to provide a dry contact back to my Stargate/Elk M1 panels (I have 80 zones where the two systems share inputs). So these dumb switches still allow for things like voice alerts when somebody goes down there and turning speakers on and off as you move from room to room. They are just dumb because they are not tied to any HA eco-system and I can easily replace them with off-the-shelf replacements from Home Depot if one of them fails (which they probably won't). I am starting to do similiar things in bathrooms where a motion sensor on the lights and countown timer fan switch are sufficient to accomplish what I need without extending a mesh or buying expensive automated switches for areas that really don't benefit from them. Of course it helps that I have the wiring in place for the dry contacts to my Elk panel left over from the X-10 days where I needed a way to confirm that X-10 control commands actually worked. 

The point being your switches can be cheap and dumb but still have automation features sufficient to your needs.

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

So one thing that might be worthwhile would be to define a "dumb" switch. A few years ago I converted the basement from Insteon to "dumb" Leviton motion sensors and removed all manual switching options. They are not completely dumb though because each room has a relay that operates with the lights to provide a dry contact back to my Stargate/Elk M1 panels (I have 80 zones where the two systems share inputs). So these dumb switches still allow for things like voice alerts when somebody goes down there and turning speakers on and off as you move from room to room. They are just dumb because they are not tied to any HA eco-system and I can easily replace them with off-the-shelf replacements from Home Depot if one of them fails (which they probably won't). I am starting to do similiar things in bathrooms where a motion sensor on the lights and countown timer fan switch are sufficient to accomplish what I need without extending a mesh or buying expensive automated switches for areas that really don't benefit from them. Of course it helps that I have the wiring in place for the dry contacts to my Elk panel left over from the X-10 days where I needed a way to confirm that X-10 control commands actually worked. 

The point being your switches can be cheap and dumb but still have automation features sufficient to your needs.

That's what I said originally but @asbril focused on the dumb switch part. I'd use dumb switches and hue bulbs where I needed smarts. 

[lilyoyo1]

38 minutes ago, asbril said:

You have a point, except that I don't say (or think) that dumb switches are better than Insteon.

I understand that most on ISY started with Insteon (or even X10 like me), built a complete Insteon setup and like the quality of the switches. I only had a few Insteon plugins and no switches when the PLM blew and I made the Zwave choice. Yes, I have had to replace a few of my Zwave switches and yes, different manufacturers give different quality, but overall I never regretted my choice.

My first video recorder was a Betamax and then I switched to VHS. Sounds familiar ?

If SH would have let others  make Insteon devices and PLM's they might now be sitting on a gold mine.

I am not blind to Zwave shortcomings and Zwave may also reach its EOL, but for those considering the after Insteon, Zwave is a decent alternative, especially when one is not an integrator or does not drive a Rolls Royce ?.

This is what you fail to realize. Zwave fits your needs not mine. What you want from your system isn't the same as what I want from mine.

It's similar to a discussion that I had with @upstatemike about homes. He prefers older while I prefer newer. If we both were in the market at the same time, he'd probably stay in his current home before buying a New home. Ditto for me. 

 

[asbril]

10 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

This is what you fail to realize. Zwave fits your needs not mine. What you want from your system isn't the same as what I want from mine.

It's similar to a discussion that I had with @upstatemike about homes. He prefers older while I prefer newer. If we both were in the market at the same time, he'd probably stay in his current home before buying a New home. Ditto for me. 

 

You have the last word.

[Michel Kohanim]

Last night, my house became the guinea pig for our ISY994 to Polisy migration/backup/restore. First of all, migration went absolutely perfectly. All INSTEON <profanity> was migrated properly with all the databases, programs, configurations, network resources, etc.  (not Z-Wave yet). And my prayers were answered: my PLM didn't die in the process!

Above and beyond my utter pleasure at migration, was my amazement at how UD Mobile immediately processed, displayed, and let me create favorites from the node servers. For instance, in less than 30 seconds, I created favorites from my Hue to change the color, brightness, and color loop. The last time around I had setup my climate node servers using the ugly dashboard. This time, I did it through UD Mobile and, it was a breeze. And, finally, I added my Z-Wave thermostat and extender via UD Mobile too! All and all, such a pleasurable experience ... I would say that the only time I used the Admin Console was for backup/restore and to check whether or not all the programs were migrated. @Javi, thank you so much! 

In short, the combination of UD Mobile and Polisy is just most awesome! (yeah, I know I am very biased). Is it as good as HA, I don't think so yet, but if the Favorites are any indications, I think we'll get there + much more.

Based on the above, here are my thoughts:
- As @lilyoyo1 suggested, Alexa app is ideal for such things as Hue, Lutron, WiFi plugs, thermostats, door locks, and even printers! You can even make simple routines for timers and sensors. So, if you don't use automation much, and you don't mind everything going through the cloud, then Alexa/Google Home with Lutron Caseta or WiFi would be pretty cost effective. And, Alexa app, although cluttered, is OK

- If you need lighting only, then Lutron is my choice 

- If your automation needs are just a little more than simple routines/schedules, then you need a Polisy. A simple example for me is my front door lights: they turn on based on motion, stay on for 1 minute, and turn off. UNLESS, I override the automatic nature by turning them on/off manually. And, all this is based on sunrise/sunset times. Other examples: pool pump based on weather, irrigation based on forecast, etc. etc. There is absolutely no way I could do any of this with Alexa or GH alone

- If UI is important for you and you don't mind managing your own RPi, HA is awesome

So, in my view - and as @mwester suggested - the most important thing is to figure out whether or not you need automation at all. If you don't, then you can use dumb devices or use Alexa/GH with whatever they support. If automation is important, then you need a platform, such as Polisy or HA or Vera or HomeSeer or  Elevation Hub, or 100s of others that keep popping up every day (Hoobs?)

Good luck.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

 

 

[hart2hart]

Last night, my house became the guinea pig for our ISY994 to Polisy migration/backup/restore. First of all, migration went absolutely perfectly. All INSTEON was migrated properly with all the databases, programs, configurations, network resources, etc.  (not Z-Wave yet). And my prayers were answered: my PLM didn't die in the process!
Above and beyond my utter pleasure at migration, was my amazement at how UD Mobile immediately processed, displayed, and let me create favorites from the node servers. For instance, in less than 30 seconds, I created favorites from my Hue to change the color, brightness, and color loop. The last time around I had setup my climate node servers using the ugly dashboard. This time, I did it through UD Mobile and, it was a breeze. And, finally, I added my Z-Wave thermostat and extender via UD Mobile too! All and all, such a pleasurable experience ... I would say that the only time I used the Admin Console was for backup/restore and to check whether or not all the programs were migrated. @Javi, thank you so much! 
In short, the combination of UD Mobile and Polisy is just most awesome! (yeah, I know I am very biased). Is it as good as HA, I don't think so yet, but if the Favorites are any indications, I think we'll get there + much more.
Based on the above, here are my thoughts:
- As @lilyoyo1 suggested, Alexa app is ideal for such things as Hue, Lutron, WiFi plugs, thermostats, door locks, and even printers! You can even make simple routines for timers and sensors. So, if you don't use automation much, and you don't mind everything going through the cloud, then Alexa/Google Home with Lutron Caseta or WiFi would be pretty cost effective. And, Alexa app, although cluttered, is OK
- If you need lighting only, then Lutron is my choice 
- If your automation needs are just a little more than simple routines/schedules, then you need a Polisy. A simple example for me is my front door lights: they turn on based on motion, stay on for 1 minute, and turn off. UNLESS, I override the automatic nature by turning them on/off manually. And, all this is based on sunrise/sunset times. Other examples: pool pump based on weather, irrigation based on forecast, etc. etc. There is absolutely no way I could do any of this with Alexa or GH alone
- If UI is important for you and you don't mind managing your own RPi, HA is awesome
So, in my view - and as @mwester suggested - the most important thing is to figure out whether or not you need automation at all. If you don't, then you can use dumb devices or use Alexa/GH with whatever they support. If automation is important, then you need a platform, such as Polisy or HA or Vera or HomeSeer or  Elevation Hub, or 100s of others that keep popping up every day (Hoobs?)
Good luck.
With kind regards,
Michel
 
 
 

Fantastic, Michel! Congratulations to you and the UD team.

My plan is Polisy with Insteon as long as spares hold out(50% off sales were a blessing). Nodeservers for other technology. Move to Lutron (RA3 likely) in some form for lighting as needed with a nodeserver. Use zwave for non lighting with either 700 or 800 series.

[larryllix]

35 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Last night, my house became the guinea pig for our ISY994 to Polisy migration/backup/restore. First of all, migration went absolutely perfectly. All INSTEON <profanity> was migrated properly with all the databases, programs, configurations, network resources, etc.  (not Z-Wave yet). And my prayers were answered: my PLM didn't die in the process!

Above and beyond my utter pleasure at migration, was my amazement at how UD Mobile immediately processed, displayed, and let me create favorites from the node servers. For instance, in less than 30 seconds, I created favorites from my Hue to change the color, brightness, and color loop. The last time around I had setup my climate node servers using the ugly dashboard. This time, I did it through UD Mobile and, it was a breeze. And, finally, I added my Z-Wave thermostat and extender via UD Mobile too! All and all, such a pleasurable experience ... I would say that the only time I used the Admin Console was for backup/restore and to check whether or not all the programs were migrated. @Javi, thank you so much! 

In short, the combination of UD Mobile and Polisy is just most awesome! (yeah, I know I am very biased). Is it as good as HA, I don't think so yet, but if the Favorites are any indications, I think we'll get there + much more.

Based on the above, here are my thoughts:
- As @lilyoyo1 suggested, Alexa app is ideal for such things as Hue, Lutron, WiFi plugs, thermostats, door locks, and even printers! You can even make simple routines for timers and sensors. So, if you don't use automation much, and you don't mind everything going through the cloud, then Alexa/Google Home with Lutron Caseta or WiFi would be pretty cost effective. And, Alexa app, although cluttered, is OK

- If you need lighting only, then Lutron is my choice 

- If your automation needs are just a little more than simple routines/schedules, then you need a Polisy. A simple example for me is my front door lights: they turn on based on motion, stay on for 1 minute, and turn off. UNLESS, I override the automatic nature by turning them on/off manually. And, all this is based on sunrise/sunset times. Other examples: pool pump based on weather, irrigation based on forecast, etc. etc. There is absolutely no way I could do any of this with Alexa or GH alone

- If UI is important for you and you don't mind managing your own RPi, HA is awesome

So, in my view - and as @mwester suggested - the most important thing is to figure out whether or not you need automation at all. If you don't, then you can use dumb devices or use Alexa/GH with whatever they support. If automation is important, then you need a platform, such as Polisy or HA or Vera or HomeSeer or  Elevation Hub, or 100s of others that keep popping up every day (Hoobs?)

Good luck.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

 

 

Welcome to the ISY/polisy world. Many have been trying to get you included into the group for some time now. I know you will like it! Polisy is a powerful little box and I am sure you will find many uses for it!

[asbril]

3 hours ago, hart2hart said:

Move to Lutron (RA3 likely) in some form for lighting as needed with a nodeserver. Use zwave for non lighting with either 700 or 800 series.

Reading everything on this for the past few weeks, that seems the right path. Replacing about 40 Zwave switches to Ra3  will be a long term and expensive project. I will wait for the nodeserver and learning from the experience of others.

Edited December 28, 2021 by asbril

[TJF1960]

3 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Last night, my house became the guinea pig for our ISY994 to Polisy migration/backup/restore.

@Michel Kohanim I would love to be the 2nd guinea pig!  

Tim

[elvisimprsntr]

SmartLabs Redesigned Devices.  All were FCC approved in 2020.

https://fccid.io/SBP

All the FCC documentation photos look identical to the devices listed here

https://nokia.smartlabsinc.com/collections/nokia

 

 

 

if you look at the users manuals, it is stated backwards compatible with legacy Insteon devices, but with caveats 

 

You can clearly see  an Insteon ID under the QR code

 

 

The new bridge contains Insteon RF in addition to 2.4 GHz WiFi/BT.  No power line built in.  

 

 

SLabs did redesign the PLM in 2019, but was it ever made available?  (2234-222)

I came across some dead links which reported to announce the existence of a new PLM

https://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/110059-new-advanced-plm-in-the-works

 

If I had to speculate, I would say that the new Bridge/Devices are only compatible with Insteon RF, thus the reason for the compatibility disclaimer.  

The question is, will these devices ever come into existence?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by elvisimprsntr

[lilyoyo1]

36 minutes ago, elvisimprsntr said:

SmartLabs Redesigned Devices.  All were FCC approved in 2020.

https://fccid.io/SBP

All the FCC documentation photos look identical to the devices listed here

https://nokia.smartlabsinc.com/collections/nokia

 

 

 

if you look at the users manuals, it is stated backwards compatible with legacy Insteon devices, but with caveats 

 

You can clearly see  an Insteon ID under the QR code

 

 

The new bridge contains Insteon RF in addition to 2.4 GHz WiFi/BT.  No power line built in.  

 

 

SLabs did redesign the PLM in 2019, but was it ever made available?  (2234-222)

I cam across some dead links which reported to announce the existence of a new PLM

https://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/110059-new-advanced-plm-in-the-works

 

If I had to speculate, I would say that the new Bridge/Devices are only compatible with Insteon RF, thus the reason for the compatibility disclaimer.  

The question is, will these devices ever come into existence?

 

 

 

 

 

Old information. That's stuff from the new Nokia line whenever they decide to release it. The PLM had not been produced yet

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, elvisimprsntr said:

SmartLabs Redesigned Devices.  All were FCC approved in 2020.

https://fccid.io/SBP

All the FCC documentation photos look identical to the devices listed here

https://nokia.smartlabsinc.com/collections/nokia

 

 

 

if you look at the users manuals, it is stated backwards compatible with legacy Insteon devices, but with caveats 

 

You can clearly see  an Insteon ID under the QR code

 

 

The new bridge contains Insteon RF in addition to 2.4 GHz WiFi/BT.  No power line built in.  

 

 

SLabs did redesign the PLM in 2019, but was it ever made available?  (2234-222)

I came across some dead links which reported to announce the existence of a new PLM

https://forum.insteon.com/forum/main-category/new-insteon-device-wish-list/110059-new-advanced-plm-in-the-works

 

If I had to speculate, I would say that the new Bridge/Devices are only compatible with Insteon RF, thus the reason for the compatibility disclaimer.  

The question is, will these devices ever come into existence?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks! Good information to know!

Nice to see something is going on with Insteon these days. I haven't given up on them yet.

[kurelgyer]

Correct me if I'm wrong - C4 and Ra3 are not DIY solutions.  In the context of this forum, they are irrelevant - comparing apples to celery.

[DAlter01]

I believe Ra3 should also be a DIY solution as long as you take a class to learn how to actually set up a system properly per Lutron specs.  But, anyone can take the class.

[simplextech]

11 minutes ago, kurelgyer said:

Correct me if I'm wrong - C4 and Ra3 are not DIY solutions.  In the context of this forum, they are irrelevant - comparing apples to celery.

Correct about C4.

Lutron has always been open with Radio Ra 2 and likely will stay that way with Radio Ra 3 where anyone can sign up for the free class.  If you pass the class you get access to the programming software required to configure the system.

[lilyoyo1]

In addition to what @simplextechsaid, the fact that they don't have a level 2 course specific to Ra3 leads me to believe they'll continue the same openness with Ra3. The only thing you really have to be willing to do is pay what it costs. 

[upstatemike]

Another key feature I would consider when picking a replacement for Insteon is the ability to add devices to your system without having to perform any physical action at the device itself. This was a key thing for me even way back when Insteon was first introduced. Many times I have devices installed inside fixtures or in high, difficult to reach locations and screwing around with button presses on the device to enroll them is just not practical. With Insteon (or X-10) you just need a list of device addresses and you can set everything up from your controller without needing to go out into the field at all. LoRa is not too bad because you just scan the device address before you install it but still not ideal. I think any protocal that makes you go around pushing buttons on the devices in the field to manage them is a huge step backwards and makes me wonder what the thinking was when these supposedly new and better protocols were being designed.

[Michel Kohanim]

Update:

I made a scene with an INSTEON keypad button as controller and Hue lights as responder, using default: near instantaneous response from Hue.

Then, I made a program for color effects using another button: near instantaneous response.

With kind regards,
Michel

[apostolakisl]

On 12/29/2021 at 8:52 AM, upstatemike said:

Another key feature I would consider when picking a replacement for Insteon is the ability to add devices to your system without having to perform any physical action at the device itself. This was a key thing for me even way back when Insteon was first introduced. Many times I have devices installed inside fixtures or in high, difficult to reach locations and screwing around with button presses on the device to enroll them is just not practical. With Insteon (or X-10) you just need a list of device addresses and you can set everything up from your controller without needing to go out into the field at all. LoRa is not too bad because you just scan the device address before you install it but still not ideal. I think any protocal that makes you go around pushing buttons on the devices in the field to manage them is a huge step backwards and makes me wonder what the thinking was when these supposedly new and better protocols were being designed.

I'm totally with you.  I love that I just shoot a photo of the Insteon device address when I install it and then after completing however many installs, I just type in the addresses and "boom" (a small tribute to John Madden) I'm done.  The idea of scanning a device or being required to run back and forth pushing buttons I believe is an attempt to make things easier that backfired.  It simplifies things for a novice installing their first device and then locks the experienced person into a protocol that frustrates them.  And finally, ISY gives me a nice list of all my devices and their addresses which I periodically backup should any future issues arise.  

Edited December 30, 2021 by apostolakisl

[hart2hart]

Update:
I made a scene with an INSTEON keypad button as controller and Hue lights as responder, using default: near instantaneous response from Hue.
Then, I made a program for color effects using another button: near instantaneous response.
With kind regards,
Michel

Fantastic! Did these results occur on Polisy ISY? With migrated data?

[stillwater]

I have several reactions:

 

1) Based on @Michel Kohanim's post above, I definitely need to look at UDI Mobile!  I hadn't appreciated what a departure it might be. 

2) I would definitely buy UDI Insteon PLMs if they existed.,    I need more address space for more scenes. 

3) My experience is that over the last decade Insteon devices are more reliable than they are given credit for.  I have whole house surge protection in two houses with a combined maybe 800 device-years of dual-band insteon devices.  I haven't had a single actual device go dead.   I've replaced a couple of PLMs as a precautionary measure and some KPL's have needed to be factory reset, but that's it.

4) So while I feel for installers and users who don't have any spares, and clearly replacing Insteon is a medium-to-long term need, for me it's not a 2022 problem.

5) maybe as the leading edge rips out their insteon installations, usable devices will be available on Ebay etc. 

6) I don't mean to say ANYTHING positive about Smartlabs.  Their neglect of the insteon product line --starting with eliminating colors and custom buttons -- is  execrable.  

7)) I am looking at Shelly devices.    Re input -- some time back someone in the forums showed a prototype of a touch screen on a microcontroller that would be suitable.   Thinks have come a long way since then and it looks like a 3-color e-inc display with a touch screen and wifi could fit in an outlet box.  

 

[Bumbershoot]

5 minutes ago, stillwater said:

3) My experience is that over the last decade Insteon devices are more reliable than they are given credit for.  I have whole house surge protection in two houses with a combined maybe 800 device-years of dual-band insteon devices.  I haven't had a single actual device go dead.   I've replaced a couple of PLMs as a precautionary measure and some KPL's have needed to be factory reset, but that's it.

I installed my Insteon network in 2015, and I have whole home surge protection as well.  I've never lost a single device or PLM, and I have spares of everything.  I'll likely migrate to Z-Wave as it improves, but so far, the Insteon lighting in my main living spaces has been beautiful.