Insteon acquired and servers coming back up

[jec6613]

2 hours ago, LFMc said:

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

of chip sourcing was just BS or just ordering person dependent?

Strange how it could suddenly be "fixed".

ROFLMFAO!

In keeping up with the latest news, both Intel and AMD have now both forecast about a 20% downturn in near future chip production due to so many ongoing order cancellations. So you can probably spread that across most of the chip production industry. Not a good sign for the tech economy but it does mean that some orders are probably moving to the front of the queues. Of course that is probably only the tip of the iceberg as many buyers were placing duplicate and triplicate orders with multiple vendors hoping

Intel's fabs have one customer: Intel.  So order cancellations aren't the problem for the, they're not a foundry (yet, they are entering that business).  For Intel this is about demand softening.  AMD produces no chips, so is also 100% about demand softening.

Other orders are moving to the front of queues, but nobody puts in orders across different manufacturers for the same product as they're not interchangeable.  One cannot simple swap from a 35nm Samsung to 35nm TSMC node, the chip needs to be redesigned with the target fab and node in mind.  This is why when the GlobalFoundries fab in upstate NY was closing, the USAF put in an emergency $1Bn order for chips that could only be made there as the last fab on that particular process to keep a number of chips in stock through the end of life of the equipment they were installed in.

[Geddy]

Interesting posts....

 

1 hour ago, Dub aka WHaas said:

HAHA!  I'm sure there were supply chain problems even it it were products sitting on containers in the ocean or lack of cash to pay for manufacturing or chip sourcing.  

<snip>

But ultimately it sounds like there is equipment that is made and not held up somewhere in the manufacturing process.

Exactly!  While I have no idea of what was going on I do know the process of shipping/importing. If the old Insteon owners were indeed having financial issues it's quite possible that their material got held up in transit and was being held by their freight forwarder as collateral against duties paid in good faith. I know the freight forwarder I use ends up with some crazy stuff if other clients refuse to pay or don't pay for duties. The items are held in bond until that bond expires and then the freight forwarder could liquidate the material to be made hole. 

Although, from reading between the lines in some of the posts and chatter that's probably not the case here. I think @lilyoyo1 has implied/confirmed to having received some Nokia products for review/testing so something was received by the old Smarthome. Perhaps the "new" Insteon has to work out the license deals with Nokia (like some here have speculated). Maybe there is an unknown amount of inventory available for Insteon to sell, but what about working with existing equipment (there were lots of promises made in the past...not sure what will/won't be available at this point).

The main thing...it's highly doubtful the prior owners had 12 months of supply in transit or in a warehouse somewhere that the new owners can just start selling. Surely those that were in negotiations to buy the assets probably know better, but are limited by confidentiality agreements from the negotiations that we'll never really know.  

PS: Want to know how bad the supply chain (still) is? Check out this story from the other day: https://www.freightwaves.com/news/traffic-jam-of-waiting-container-ships-is-now-as-bad-as-ever
Why isn't this being covered by the media like it was last Nov/Dec? Well...Christmas isn't on the water yet! Oh...but it is. Shipments leaving China now might not reach the east coast until mid-October. Leaving little time for retailers to get to warehouses or stores for Christmas purchases. Then don't miss the point about a possible blockade in the Taiwan straight thanks to the Speaker's visit this week. (sorry...this just hits too close to home for me)

 

1 hour ago, LFMc said:

In keeping up with the latest news, both Intel and AMD have now both forecast about a 20% downturn in near future chip production due to so many ongoing order cancellations. So you can probably spread that across most of the chip production industry. Not a good sign for the tech economy but it does mean that some orders are probably moving to the front of the queues. 

It's nothing new that the big chip suppliers are expecting a 20% downturn. That's been in the news for about 7 months now. I think it's just now getting attention because it's another quarter reporting period and Q3/Q4 forecasts are being re-confirmed as to what many were speculating in Q42021. That's why their stock prices are in the tank (FYI - dollar cost averaging into some of those stocks are sweet deals these days!)

But tech as a whole has been the long game and anybody that thought it would be better now was foolish. It's clearly going to be 2023-2024 before they see improvement. Many have been pointing to that, but the "news" had ignored that hoping things would just turn around.

  

7 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Good news is that there are 10's of billions of dollars in new chip fabs in the works for the US.  I believe the $17b Samsung fab in Austin is already underway and Samsung has declared that they would like spend more than $100b in new chip fabs in Texas.  That is just Samsung.  So perhaps in 2 or 3 years . . . 

HA! 2-3 years? Last I read Intel was suggesting 7 years minimum before they could be producing at a capacity that would be able to supply even 50% demand. Our Government is patting themselves on their backs for spending money to encourage companies to move back to the US. At the age some of the "leaders" are they'll be lucky to still be alive before production is fully possible to be sustainable for our demand. 

It's not a rosy picture anyway you cut it. Let's just hope there's SOME good news soon that something indeed is available, and available at a quantity that will allow for new customers to enter the ISY/Polisy/eisy world soon so we can continue to support them as we have been for so long!

 

[apostolakisl]

1 hour ago, Geddy said:

Interesting posts....

 

Exactly!  While I have no idea of what was going on I do know the process of shipping/importing. If the old Insteon owners were indeed having financial issues it's quite possible that their material got held up in transit and was being held by their freight forwarder as collateral against duties paid in good faith. I know the freight forwarder I use ends up with some crazy stuff if other clients refuse to pay or don't pay for duties. The items are held in bond until that bond expires and then the freight forwarder could liquidate the material to be made hole. 

Although, from reading between the lines in some of the posts and chatter that's probably not the case here. I think @lilyoyo1 has implied/confirmed to having received some Nokia products for review/testing so something was received by the old Smarthome. Perhaps the "new" Insteon has to work out the license deals with Nokia (like some here have speculated). Maybe there is an unknown amount of inventory available for Insteon to sell, but what about working with existing equipment (there were lots of promises made in the past...not sure what will/won't be available at this point).

The main thing...it's highly doubtful the prior owners had 12 months of supply in transit or in a warehouse somewhere that the new owners can just start selling. Surely those that were in negotiations to buy the assets probably know better, but are limited by confidentiality agreements from the negotiations that we'll never really know.  

PS: Want to know how bad the supply chain (still) is? Check out this story from the other day: https://www.freightwaves.com/news/traffic-jam-of-waiting-container-ships-is-now-as-bad-as-ever
Why isn't this being covered by the media like it was last Nov/Dec? Well...Christmas isn't on the water yet! Oh...but it is. Shipments leaving China now might not reach the east coast until mid-October. Leaving little time for retailers to get to warehouses or stores for Christmas purchases. Then don't miss the point about a possible blockade in the Taiwan straight thanks to the Speaker's visit this week. (sorry...this just hits too close to home for me)

 

It's nothing new that the big chip suppliers are expecting a 20% downturn. That's been in the news for about 7 months now. I think it's just now getting attention because it's another quarter reporting period and Q3/Q4 forecasts are being re-confirmed as to what many were speculating in Q42021. That's why their stock prices are in the tank (FYI - dollar cost averaging into some of those stocks are sweet deals these days!)

But tech as a whole has been the long game and anybody that thought it would be better now was foolish. It's clearly going to be 2023-2024 before they see improvement. Many have been pointing to that, but the "news" had ignored that hoping things would just turn around.

  

HA! 2-3 years? Last I read Intel was suggesting 7 years minimum before they could be producing at a capacity that would be able to supply even 50% demand. Our Government is patting themselves on their backs for spending money to encourage companies to move back to the US. At the age some of the "leaders" are they'll be lucky to still be alive before production is fully possible to be sustainable for our demand. 

It's not a rosy picture anyway you cut it. Let's just hope there's SOME good news soon that something indeed is available, and available at a quantity that will allow for new customers to enter the ISY/Polisy/eisy world soon so we can continue to support them as we have been for so long!

 

Re: the $17b Samsung plant outside of Austin. . .from Samsung:  "The manufacturing facility is slated to be fully-operational by the end of 2025."

[larryllix]

@Michel Kohanimsure knows how to start rumours and speculation here. What a demonstration!!

The response was so awesome and does demonstrates the dedication and ISY OCD focus in this group.

Likely he just found his kid's favourite TV show on Netflix but held off announcing it in this thread.

[Dub]

1 hour ago, Geddy said:

Then don't miss the point about a possible blockade in the Taiwan straight thanks to the Speaker's visit this week. (sorry...this just hits too close to home for me)

Politics aside, I realize there are tensions with China and Taiwan, and the impact of the visit mentioned does have risks. The above statement from @Geddy probably the most underrated statement above, because a majority of advanced chips are made in Taiwan.   A quick search returns a number 90% of the advanced chips that are manufactured are made in Taiwan!!  

Ultimately any thing being done now to increase chip supply is not a right now fix whether it takes 2 or 7 years....wonder if any supply chain constraints will affect manufacturing of these highly complex facilities 😀?(rhetorical question)

[Dub]

40 minutes ago, larryllix said:

and speculation here.

3 hours ago, Dub aka WHaas said:

There is a couple of options I have read speculations on here and other places about sourcing

 

For some reason I couldn't add text to the above and couldn't even trying to edit....so here's the rest...

 

Very much agree, but as I noted earlier in my post…there is definitely speculation.

 

I do believe Michel is telling us so we know something is in the works and will tell us what he can when he.  The transparency is great even when it is limited.

 

As far as the chip and supply chain…the problem and risks are real.  You are correct and I think speculation can get too far out there and wastes folks time.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Dub aka WHaas

[PBeyard]

11 hours ago, noobmuch said:

I would think they could do a preorder/deposit to see what their demand is on certain products right out of the gate.  I am sure others also have a few things then would like to add or replace.  This could allow them to let the market decide what to make so the have more accurate forecasts. There would need to be a refund mechanism if the decide there is not enough demand to do a production run to avoid us from providing interest free loans.

This could also provide some quick capitol upfront to offset their burn rate until they have money coming and products going out.

To be honest, this would discourage me. It is basically the Kickstarter model, when companies do not know what the demand for their product might be. If the product is new, there is no established user base, the company is small... then that model may make sense. For an established company with an installed user base it will look like what it is: trying to get customers to front its initial capital outlay. That's going to anger at least some of them. Right now, they are tap dancing on a land mine. IMO they need to do everything within reason to avoid angering even one customer. There are alternatives to Insteon. I'd rather Insteon came back, but if I think the company isn't being run competently that won't be much different to me than when was out of business.

This, of course, is only my opinion and I do not know how many others might share it.

[PBeyard]

On 8/3/2022 at 5:03 PM, Michel Kohanim said:

All, we may have some good news about PLMs (next week). Stay tuned.

With kind regards,
Michel

Encouraging news. Thank you for sharing.

[Brian H]

16 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Could just be an announcement of a deal.  Not that the chips are ready to go.  Also, could be that the chip/part shortage was not the proprietary Insteon chip.  We shall see.

Unless Microchip is making the PIC Microchip preprogrammed for them. The chips are the standard ones off the shelf and programmed by Smartlabs manufacturer. Every module has a 5 pin programming connector so the IC can be programmed locally with the proprietary source file. The PLM has two as their is one for the main controller and one for handling the RF communications. Peel off the label on a chip and you would probably find its generic part number.

[Dub]

1 hour ago, Brian H said:

The chips are the standard ones off the shelf and programmed by Smartlabs manufacturer.

Thank you for sharing!  That is very encouraging.  It’s nice to have more details as it relates to new devices.  I know it won’t change the communicated months to get new inventory, encouraging no doubt.

[apostolakisl]

3 hours ago, Brian H said:

Unless Microchip is making the PIC Microchip preprogrammed for them. The chips are the standard ones off the shelf and programmed by Smartlabs manufacturer. Every module has a 5 pin programming connector so the IC can be programmed locally with the proprietary source file. The PLM has two as their is one for the main controller and one for handling the RF communications. Peel off the label on a chip and you would probably find its generic part number.

Interesting.  Never pealed the sticker off, just assumed it was hard coded, especially since they don't offer firmware updates.

[Michel Kohanim]

22 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Does this mean the new Insteon owners are selling/licensing the PLM chip to UD for the UD PLM?

No!!!

As @larryllixnoted, I just wanted to start rumors and get some traffic :). But I was also very careful to preface with "may"!

I have a call with Ken next week about some short-term opportunities. I promise to let you all know the outcome asap.

With kind regards,
Michel

[larryllix]

No!!!
As @larryllixnoted, I just wanted to start rumors and get some traffic . But I was also very careful to preface with "may"!
I have a call with Ken next week about some short-term opportunities. I promise to let you all know the outcome asap.
With kind regards,
Michel

Say 'HI from the hopelessly UDI OCD group!', to Uncle Ken, for us!



Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[Brian H]

3 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

Interesting.  Never pealed the sticker off, just assumed it was hard coded, especially since they don't offer firmware updates.

They didn't offer updates. Didn't want to release the firmware files and you would need a programmer or did not want the hassle of taking a module back to reprogram them.

I believe the chips have a copy back fuse so an unauthorized person could not read back the file and use it for more chips. The unique six digit would be changed in each module. Except the special Developers Module. They all have the same six digit ID so their canned Docklight Scripting file worked for all the developers modules.

I have a few of the version 1 access points. They took back our Signallinc RF units and it looked like they reprogrammed the processor and swapped out the RF board. For a fee that is.

[GTench]

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet

https://staceyoniot.com/podcast-meet-insteons-new-ceo/

 

[lilyoyo1]

21 minutes ago, GTench said:

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet

https://staceyoniot.com/podcast-meet-insteons-new-ceo/

 

Different article with the same information

[apostolakisl]

37 minutes ago, GTench said:

Not sure if anyone has posted this yet

https://staceyoniot.com/podcast-meet-insteons-new-ceo/

 

Just listened to it.  Starts at the 44 minute mark.  Nothing terribly interesting, except perhaps that they are looking into making Insteon connect to Matter.  As I understand, Matter connectivity would be in the Hub, or I would assume it is something that UDI could implement into ISY.  Of course ISY with node servers would seem to be its own Matter framework.  Matter would seem to have nothing to do with the individual Insteon devices which would continue to talk to each other and a hub as per current framework.  There was no mention of the Nokia designed devices and really nothing even about manufacturing of any devices except they are working on it.  Ken reported that suppliers haven't been paid (big surprise), no mention as to whether the suppliers haven't been paid for products delivered or if they have shipping containers of built devices ready to go upon payment.  My guess is probably some of both, but mostly the former.

[lilyoyo1]

7 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Just listened to it.  Starts at the 44 minute mark.  Nothing terribly interesting, except perhaps that they are looking into making Insteon connect to Matter.  As I understand, Matter connectivity would be in the Hub, or I would assume it is something that UDI could implement into ISY.  Of course ISY with node servers would seem to be its own Matter framework.  Matter would seem to have nothing to do with the individual Insteon devices which would continue to talk to each other and a hub as per current framework.  There was no mention of the Nokia designed devices and really nothing even about manufacturing of any devices except they are working on it.  Ken reported that suppliers haven't been paid (big surprise), no mention as to whether the suppliers haven't been paid for products delivered or if they have shipping containers of built devices ready to go upon payment.  My guess is probably some of both, but mostly the former.

Michel has been talking about a Matter board for Polisy as well as for eisy. I highly doubt anything will come for the 994 since both of those replace the 994 (nor does 994 integrate with polyglot V3). 

The new insteon hub would connect to Matter (was the plan for Nokia) and not directly to insteon devices

[Techman]

I think we all need to be patient and let this play out over the next few months. Ken Fairbanks is currently dealing with a dump truck full of manure that he inherited. His visions look promising, let's hope he succeeds.

Interesting article below:

Insteon's new boss is ready for business - Stacey on IoT | Internet of Things news and analysis

 

 

 

[hart2hart]

Michel has been talking about a Matter board for Polisy as well as for eisy. I highly doubt anything will come for the 994 since both of those replace the 994 (nor does 994 integrate with polyglot V3). 
The new insteon hub would connect to Matter (was the plan for Nokia) and not directly to insteon devices

All node servers used on my 994 are V3 running on Polisy. I will migrate to IoE once I get Eisy and the MatterZ board.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, hart2hart said:

All node servers used on my 994 are V3 running on Polisy. I will migrate to IoE once I get Eisy and the MatterZ board.

Thats what I was saying. No upgrades to the 994. All new features are for polisy and eisy. @Michel Kohanim can correct me if im incorrect but there's a separate (add-on)board for polisy that supports matter as well (in addition to what eisy has)

Edited August 6, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[apostolakisl]

I'm pretty vague on how this matter thing works or makes things better.  It sounds like it is an API standardizing protocol?  Everything I read just says it will make things talk to each other using IP.  That sounds a whole lot like API's to me.  If it works over IP, what does the board do?  

[Dub]

45 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I'm pretty vague on how this matter thing works or makes things better.  It sounds like it is an API standardizing protocol? 

I haven't read as much about the API, but Ken Fairbanks in the podcast made it sound like that might be how it works with Insteon in some future iteration.

My understanding is Matter will use IPv6 addresses on the device, but not be on WiFi....this was confusing to me at first.  But it will use a communication layer like we refer to WiFi but its called thread.  Its wireless and performs a mesh, but its not on your WiFi network.  A pure Matter environment would not be API intensive, but would have IP gateway a hub type device that has the Matter/Thread stack and the Wifi/Ethernet together.  Similar to how an Insteon Hub bridges IP and Insteon together.  From what I understand there will be API's much like we all use when using node servers or the great UDI Polisy/ISY API that Home Assistant connects too.

To me I think Matter will just be another standard, cause I dont think anybody will rip and replace what they have.  It is interesting, but time will tell. The rest is speculation.

I'm cautiously putting this out there cause I have pieced this together from multiple reads and is my understanding.  There are also some very passionate opinions about Matter.....fingers cross this doesn't turn into a thread hi-jack! hahah

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, Dub aka WHaas said:

 

I'm cautiously putting this out there cause I have pieced this together from multiple reads and is my understanding.  There are also some very passionate opinions about Matter.....fingers cross this doesn't turn into a thread hi-jack! hahah

I don't think anyone is strongly against matter on here to cause a huge debate like some other subjects. Those who speak out against it aren't doing so because they hate it. They do so because of broken promises as well as the unknown.

We've all heard the rhetoric from other "standards" and what it will do for automation, only for it to fall significantly short. In the case of matter, there's a lot of fluff but significant details are lacking. Unlike zwave vs insteon debates, matter debates comes down to those claiming it's the best thing since sliced bread( without any substance) and those who are hesitant to get excited due to the lack of details.

I fall into the latter category. With the lack of details on how it improves upon what i have, i don't see the point (from an advanced controller standpoint) other than being able to connect to devices that i may or may not be able to connect to already. To me it's like the "Emperor's new clothes story". Sounds wonderful but with zero details, there's nothing to see

[Dub]

11 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I fall into the latter category. With the lack of details on how it improves upon what i have, i don't see the point (from an advanced controller standpoint) other than being able to connect to devices that i may or may not be able to connect to already. To me it's like the "Emperor's new clothes story". Sounds wonderful but with zero details, there's nothing to see

That's the camp I'm in.