Can Polisy + ZMatter expose Insteon (via PLM) lighting as Matter devices?

[Goose66]

10 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Ignoring cloud based platforms such as Alexa, have any native Matter local controller platforms with robust event engines been announced yet? Everybody talks about Matter being the universal standard for communication between devices but the logic to control those devices has to reside someplace.

The "controller" logic remains in whatever ecosystem is already in place. So if you already use Alexa, then Alexa works with your Matter devices the same way as it does with your current devices, e.g., Hue bulbs. And if you rely on HomeKit (which includes some local functionality albeit in your phone), then HomeKit controls the Matter devices. Etc. 

The primary goal of Matter is to create an interoperability standard for end-point devices (lights, switches, sensors, thermostats, etc.) so that the devices will work across ecosystems. Thus supporting companies can continue to develop their ecosystems and ecosystem-specific devices (e.g., Amazon Echo devices) and market them to more users, because those ecosystems will work with more endpoint devices. And those same users can move from one house to another (or, more appropriately from a Matter point of view, from one apartment to another) and take their ecosystem-specific devices with them and they will work with the endpoints in the new house/apartment. This also allows builders/developers to start adding home automation devices to their buildings as features while having some assurance that they will be supported by at least the big-3 home automation ecosystems out there (Amazon, Google, and Apple).

Edited November 7, 2022 by Goose66

[lilyoyo1]

No one can answer anything because no one knows. It will take every mfg implementing matter in such a way that everyone can communicate together. If anyone leaves something out then the whole system fails. We can't say how something will work until things are released because we don't know what other mfg. have in store with their systems. 

For example, when homekit came out, it was promised that any homekit enabled system app could control any other homekit capable device. The problem was; only a few companies fully adopted homekit. Most made their devices discoverable by other homekit devices. Their app just wouldn't do the controlling of other brands. This led apple to creating their own app. The same thing could potentially happen with thread. Since they haven't really given details on how things will be, no one can say. Anything anyone says (including myself) is conjecture, wishful thinking, or dreadful thoughts. 

How devices communicate with one another is irrelevant to the overall discussion. It doesn't matter if it's ZigBee, thread, wifi, insteon or zwave. The controller (in this case it would be polisy) sends out the command using the relevant form of communication. No difference with now. The Isy can communicate with IP based devices, zwave, and insteon devices without issue. The matter board is ZigBee/thread so it would be able to do the same with both using the chipset they've chosen.

Insteon doesn't use ZigBee but when I turn my hue lights on from the switch, my hue lights turn on. Why? Because the isy talks to the hue hub which in turn talks to the hue devices. Ditto for my zwave. They don't talk insteon but my lights will turn on if i walk in from of a sensor. This is because zwave board picks up the zwave signal, tells Polisy which then communicates to the insteon devices via the PLM. What's so difficult in the same being done with other Matter devices? 

HA can currently scan the Isy and pick up the devices that the isy has. Ditto for the isy with hubitat via it's Node server. I'm not sure why people think it's far fetched to think that the same can't be done with Matter. Once again; It will take all parties implementing things fully and properly. But....until it's released and being used, no one can say what will happen and how it can work. 

[Goose66]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

HA can currently scan the Isy and pick up the devices that the isy has. Ditto for the isy with hubitat via it's Node server. I'm not sure why people think it's far fetched to think that the same can't be done with Matter. Once again; It will take all parties implementing things fully and properly. But....until it's released and being used, no one can say what will happen and how it can work. 

I think you are missing the finer points of the discussion. This is not about the success or failure of Matter or whether manufacturers will do something to make it not work the way you want. It is a discussion of what Matter is defined as by the CSA. Will it be successful? Who knows, but it's not really germane to the present conversation.

As far as the ISY exposing devices via it's REST and Webservices interfaces that you refer to above, the ISY must already have connectivity to those devices and have abstracted them as "nodes" in the ISY ecosystem for the devices to be exposed externally. I think certainly this will be the case for Matter devices that are connected via Thread through the ZMatter board. But that is very different than the ISY having access to all Matter devices in a site/location/home, or the ISY making Insteon or Zwave device nodes appear as Matter devices to other controller/ecosystems in the site/location/home, which was the original question posted.

[lilyoyo1]

12 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

OK so Polisy would just do translation and the event engine used for actually automating the devices will reside in some native Matter Controller someplace else. Ignoring cloud based platforms such as Alexa, have any native Matter local controller platforms with robust event engines been announced yet? Everybody talks about Matter being the universal standard for communication between devices but the logic to control those devices has to reside someplace.

How many logic based controllers are there now? It's not like companies are rushing to make logic based controllers now. Why would matter change that?

UDI has already stated their intentions are to support matter. HA, homeseer, and hubitat has done the same as well. 

People want voice assistants and the logic they offer is usually more than enough for most people. As I've stated for the last few years, this stuff isn't designed for us anymore. They are designed for mass users. The avg user who may want to control a few things but not have to invest a large amount of time and money into it. Look at who was pushing Matter in the first place and why!

 

 

[upstatemike]

OK then to restate the OP's original question I guess the ask is "Will folks who rely on Alexa as their primary automation platform be able to use Polisy as a way to talk locally to Insteon devices using Matter?" 

But even from the perspective of a consumer who is not deep into automation like us it still confuses me some:

If you do not want to use Polisy for automation because you are an "Alexa Consumer" why would want to buy and learn one just to expose Insteon devices as Matter devices?

If you are using Polisy (or Homeseer, or Home Assistant, etc.) then why do you need devices to be tralated to Matter since these platforms will communicate with Insteon and other non-Matter devices using their native protocol?

If you are starting fresh and want to use Matter/Thread exclusively with Alexa etc. then there is no need to expose Insteon as devices as Matter devices. 

I'm just struggling to identify a use case for publishing Insteon devices as Matter devices. There is no combination of platorm and user type that would utilize that functionality.

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

I think you are missing the finer points of the discussion. This is not about the success or failure of Matter or whether manufacturers will do something to make it not work the way you want. It is a discussion of what Matter is defined as by the CSA. Will it be successful? Who knows, but it's not really germane to the present conversation.

As far as the ISY exposing devices via it's REST and Webservices interfaces that you refer to above, the ISY must already have connectivity to those devices and have abstracted them as "nodes" in the ISY ecosystem for the devices to be exposed externally. I think certainly this will be the case for Matter devices that are connected via Thread through the ZMatter board. But that is very different than the ISY having access to all Matter devices in a site/location/home, or the ISY making Insteon or Zwave device nodes appear as Matter devices to other controller/ecosystems in the site/location/home, which was the original question posted.

Where did i ever mention anything about whether Matter would fail or succeed. 

Hue may implement matter in such a way that their devices are exposed to a controller but if you use the hue app, it'll only work with their stuff (in this case it's a bridge). 

Alexa and Google can now pull all of your devices that are in the Isy to be used with their systems (if you allow). Why would that change in the future when polisy (and eisy) will be matter capable? Their hardware is already Matter capable. 

As I've stated many times (including my post you linked to) no one knows because it's not out yet. Things can be devices, bridges, controllers, or routers. All with differening capabilities. Until it's out, it's impossible to say what can be done, with what, and how. it comes down to how each mfg. implements things (including UDI). If everyone opened their system up to being a router, then yes, it would be possible based on what is said about border routers. However, it still comes down to how it's implemented. 

 

 

 

[zmarty]

2 hours ago, Goose66 said:

The Polisy could act as Matter "hub." This functionality would allow natively supported devices (Insteon, ZWave, Zigbee(?)) to appear as Matter devices on the network, which would allow Matter controllers access to these devices for control and automation (along with the ISY control). I don't expect to see this functionality added.

Unfortunately, this is my main request  And the question I posed originally on this thread, which is fast going off topic.

[lilyoyo1]

33 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

OK then to restate the OP's original question I guess the ask is "Will folks who rely on Alexa as their primary automation platform be able to use Polisy as a way to talk locally to Insteon devices using Matter?" 

But even from the perspective of a consumer who is not deep into automation like us it still confuses me some:

If you do not want to use Polisy for automation because you are an "Alexa Consumer" why would want to buy and learn one just to expose Insteon devices as Matter devices?

If you are using Polisy (or Homeseer, or Home Assistant, etc.) then why do you need devices to be tralated to Matter since these platforms will communicate with Insteon and other non-Matter devices using their native protocol?

If you are starting fresh and want to use Matter/Thread exclusively with Alexa etc. then there is no need to expose Insteon as devices as Matter devices. 

I'm just struggling to identify a use case for publishing Insteon devices as Matter devices. There is no combination of platorm and user type that would utilize that functionality.

Insteon is planning on making their new hub matter compatible so they wouldn't need polisy for that. Only polisy (or those desiring to use UDI as their controller) would need Polisy to integrate insteon with matter. In both cases, the insteon hub. And polisy would simply be a bridge to the greater system. 

In regards to advanced controllers, Matter wasn't designed for them. However, as technology goes, they have to follow in order to remain relevant. Imagine looking for a controller as a new uniformed user. With Matter being the "Next big thing", would they purchase an Isy if they couldn't use it with Matter? 

Besides, the Isy doesn't work with every single device out there. Depending on what UDI does, this could be a way of supporting more devices without needing to wait for native control via a noderserver.

Why wouldn't there be a need to use insteon with matter if starting fresh? If I could use my insteon keypad to turn on my hue bulbs and change colors, why wouldnt i want that vs needing to use other alternatives? There are plenty of things that can be done outside of the Isy world. You just have to be able to see past that. 

[Techman]

In the recent Insteon zoom call they mentioned that they are planning on supporting Matter. 

They gave no other details. Being that current products, other than the Hub, cannot be field upgradeable, it might be relegated to the Hub or newly released products

[Bumbershoot]

54 minutes ago, zmarty said:

Unfortunately, this is my main request  And the question I posed originally on this thread, which is fast going off topic.

I think your original request is provoking.  I'm no engineer, but it's easy enough to imagine that Insteon could build a new PLM that also functioned as a Matter controller, which might get them closer to solving their problem of obsolescence.

[Goose66]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Where did i ever mention anything about whether Matter would fail or succeed. 

Here:

Quote

It will take every mfg implementing matter in such a way that everyone can communicate together. If anyone leaves something out then the whole system fails.

 

36 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

In regards to advanced controllers, Matter wasn't designed for them.

Matter was designed to make automation devices (switches, lights, thermostats, sensors, etc.) available to as broad a range of controllers and ecosystems as possible. That's its raison d'etre.

 

39 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Besides, the Isy doesn't work with every single device out there. Depending on what UDI does, this could be a way of supporting more devices without needing to wait for native control via a noderserver.

Again, nobody is arguing that ISY won't support Matter devices or that ISY shouldn't support Matter devices. The question is whether ISY will act as a hub to provide Matter-compatibility to Insteon devices.

As far as no one being able to answer questions on anything because no one knows, it's true that only Michel can speak with any authority as to what UDI will implement and when. However, when it comes to what Matter is and how it works, this is all pretty well publicly documented at this point. There's not a lot of speculation left to be had on what Matter is and what it does. If you want to understand what Matter is and work out use cases for yourself, there's lots of discussion, documents, videos etc. on CSA's website at https://csa-iot.org/all-solutions/matter/

Edited November 7, 2022 by Goose66

[lilyoyo1]

31 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Here:

 

Read for context. Immediately preceding the statement you copied, I stated "No one can answer anything because no one knows. It will take every mfg implementing matter in such a way that everyone can communicate together." 

Taken in totality, the line has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Matter itself would be successful (which is why I didn't use that word). I was referring to everyone implementing things in full. IE: if UDI is open to other devices via matter but others aren't, then cross platform access will not happen. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Why wouldn't there be a need to use insteon with matter if starting fresh? If I could use my insteon keypad to turn on my hue bulbs and change colors, why wouldnt i want that vs needing to use other alternatives? There are plenty of things that can be done outside of the Isy world. You just have to be able to see past that. 

I'm not saying there is no need to use Insteon with Matter. I am saying there is no need to translate Insteon devices so they appear and communicate as Matter devices in order for them to work together. You can let each device speak its native protocol and still do what you want at the Controller.

[lilyoyo1]

10 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

I'm not saying there is no need to use Insteon with Matter. I am saying there is no need to translate Insteon devices so they appear and communicate as Matter devices in order for them to work together. You can let each device speak its native protocol and still do what you want at the Controller.

I'm confused. Insteon wouldn't be communicating in that way. 

 

56 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Here:

 

Matter was designed to make automation devices (switches, lights, thermostats, sensors, etc.) available to as broad a range of controllers and ecosystems as possible. That's its raison d'etre.

 

Again, nobody is arguing that ISY won't support Matter devices or that ISY shouldn't support Matter devices. The question is whether ISY will act as a hub to provide Matter-compatibility to Insteon devices.

As far as no one being able to answer questions on anything because no one knows, it's true that only Michel can speak with any authority as to what UDI will implement and when. However, when it comes to what Matter is and how it works, this is all pretty well publicly documented at this point. There's not a lot of speculation left to be had on what Matter is and what it does. If you want to understand what Matter is and work out use cases for yourself, there's lots of discussion, documents, videos etc. on CSA's website at https://csa-iot.org/all-solutions/matter/

You're not reading my statements for context. Nothing I'm saying has anything to do with whether or not UDI is supporting matter as it has already been established as such nor about how matter itself works. 

Ive already read countless articles about matter in addition to attending every developer webinar they have. This is why I've stated countless times, that Matter can accomplish what the op asked if all parties implement matter fully. 

The reason why I state no one knows is simply because mfg have not has stated what capabilities they will support other than saying they'll support matter. Some things can be assumed can from mfg. press releases (including their history) and device type. For example, a wifi based system such as wemo will be simple devices due to the nature of their setup and system type. Others such as hue will be controllers (even if they meet the router conditions). There's a lot of fluff but details are sorely lacking

in regards to matters existence you are correct. However, the big 3 decided to work together so that things would be more fluid with their systems. They were looking more at consumer complaints in regards to integrations within their world vs people wanting fully automated homes from the likes of UDI and other advanced controllers. This was about self preservation for themselves not the automation world as a whole. Can we benefit. Of course. But big picture, it's not about us overall. 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

I'm not saying there is no need to use Insteon with Matter. I am saying there is no need to translate Insteon devices so they appear and communicate as Matter devices in order for them to work together. You can let each device speak its native protocol and still do what you want at the Controller.

That's how it will work. 

[Goose66]

10 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

That's how it will work. 

Except no one knows how it will work! 😆

[asbril]

33 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

Except no one knows how it will work! 😆

Remember that I am not very techie, but we are told that the new Z-Matter board works with Matter. Therefore UD's solution is hardware based rather than a "Node server" type of solution.  I take it that any Matter compatible device will work with the new board.

[larryllix]

I think your original request is provoking.  I'm no engineer, but it's easy enough to imagine that Insteon could build a new PLM that also functioned as a Matter controller, which might get them closer to solving their problem of obsolescence.

...or Insteon could create a PLM that could only talk Matter to our ISY boxes.

UDI takes another step in isolation from Insteon prevention?

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[Goose66]

42 minutes ago, asbril said:

Remember that I am not very techie, but we are told that the new Z-Matter board works with Matter. Therefore UD's solution is hardware based rather than a "Node server" type of solution.  I take it that any Matter compatible device will work with the new board.

The ZMatter board is just a ZWave and Zigbee (IEEE 802.15.4) radio. What it will provide in terms of Matter to the ISY on Polisy is the ability to communicate with devices that utilize Thread. Everything else for Matter support will involve software in the ISY. This means all of the Matter standard-defined device types, functions, and resources and the use of the TCP/IP stack to communicate with the Thread devices via the ZMatter board. Thus, as I said, I expect the first iteration to provide the ability for the ISY to show nodes for Matter/Thread devices alongside nodes for natively supported devices (i.e., Insteon and ZWave) as well as nodes provided by node servers for external devices.

Once all the software for support of Matter/Thread devices is in place, however, it seems trivial to add support for Matter devices over other transports/links, such as WiFi and ethernet. That said, any support for non-Thread Matter devices won't be hardware-based - it will be all software in the ISY. And, if there was some unforeseen reason for UDI not to implement this (e.g., licensing, certification, etc.) then perhaps a node server could be developed to provide this support through a "hack," similar to how many other devices are supported.

Of course, this is completely different from the question originally asked by the OP and speculated about herein by others which is the ISY acting as a Matter hub/bridge for Insteon devices (not going to happen, IMO).

Also, it's worth pointing out that Thread is not a Matter-only thing. Devices already exist that use thread to communicate with HomeKit, BACNet, etc.

[brians]

3 hours ago, Goose66 said:

Once all the software for support of Matter/Thread devices is in place, however, it seems trivial to add support for Matter devices over other transports/links, such as WiFi and ethernet. That said, any support for non-Thread Matter devices won't be hardware-based - it will be all software in the ISY. And, if there was some unforeseen reason for UDI not to implement this (e.g., licensing, certification, etc.) then perhaps a node server could be developed to provide this support through a "hack," similar to how many other devices are supported.

 

I agree using Node server to do the non Thread devices will be the answer... and probably even possible without the ZMatter board (unless it is needed for security).

 

Regarding OP question about exposing devices, Michel posted this a while ago.

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by brians

[PatPend]

Didn't google and amazon have a heavy hand in creating the matter standard?  If so I already don't trust it.

[lilyoyo1]

Just now, PatPend said:

Didn't google and amazon have a heavy hand in creating the matter standard?  If so I already don't trust it.

Yup!

[upstatemike]

1 hour ago, PatPend said:

Didn't google and amazon have a heavy hand in creating the matter standard?  If so I already don't trust it.

Why? It's not like Google has a history of abandoning things and just walking away from them or anything. I wonder if they will add Matter to the Google Home Max? (You can contact me on Google Hangouts if you want to discuss further)

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

Why? It's not like Google has a history of abandoning things and just walking away from them or anything. I wonder if they will add Matter to the Google Home Max? (You can contact me on Google Hangouts if you want to discuss further)

Google? You mean every user of Matter will paying a subscription fee within 5 years after we are all hooked?

I wonder how they can make my RGBW lighting advertise? They can't talk or display text.

Edited November 8, 2022 by larryllix

[oskrypuch]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

... I wonder how they can make my RGBW lighting advertise? They can't talk or display text.

Morse code!!

* Orest