Teken

Yes, in some places they are spaced say 5-6 feet apart but they are tied together. Ignoring to tie them together can cause ground loops and voltage difference. Above I have touched upon how ground soil conditions play a huge role in the resistance. At the heart of the matter before everyone gets lost in the back and forth is this. - A properly single point, low resistance, short ground path is required. - The use of a layered approach will offer more protection and fail over. - No house can sustain a direct strike from God and not catch fire. - The only thing that will make you whole is good comprehensive home insurance. - There are tried and true methods to bolster your chances of surviving a electrical surge event as detailed above. - No Teken does not get paid for sharing this information and isn't paid by APC, Leviton, Eaton, Tripp Lite, Syscom, etc

As I explained several times which is also bolstered in the link by Westom. It affirms what everyone knows and generaly speaking is already done. Proper grounding includes many factors which I have expressed above. - They are short and direct path to Earth ground. - Low resistance: Which is impacted by the type of soil, wire diameter, length, and the amount of area. Regardless of the above as humans learned more about electricity and (ohms law) they also realized there are many instances that Earth grounding would not be present or available. This is why different applications & techniques have been used which I have illustrated above. When grounding does not address other electrical injection paths other solutions must be used. - Shielding - Isolation - Floating ground - Material displacement Grounding will not protect any electronic device from high voltage induction or EMP. In industry where devices must be protected from such electrical events a combination of the above is used. Opto isolators have long been used in alarm system dialers. This has been used because it absolutlely isolates the device from any injection of voltage from the telco line. With the advent of fiber optic (Think VOIP) communications old POTS copper lines have slowly been replaced. Which for the end user is a plus because it avoids the secondary method of high voltage from entering the building. Besides optical isolation years of proven field trials have shown in every industry from Hospital, Military, etc. Have used 1 to 1 transformers to isolate equipment and users from the line voltage. These industries use isolation transformers for several reasons which are: Consistent voltage, Isolation, and Safety. Its fair to say as stated way above in my air plane example: There is no Earth ground . . . As stated this is where a combination of techniques such a *Isolation* is the primary method. A standard plane is made of aluminum and the shell by default acts like a Faraday cage. Should the plane be struck by lightning it will enter one area and exit the other. Even with this basic premis and solution in place its STILL not enough to protect the plane. Why?!?!? As was mentioned again even a Faraday cage will not protect something electronic against high voltage induction or EMP. This is why *Shielding* is employed whether it be mesh, grid, solid, plates. Even with that it is still not enough and *Floating Grounds* are employed to bring the voltage potential to the same level which is (isolated) from the rest of the hull of the plane. As a last measure material displacement or highly spec'd components with large tolerances are installed. As many of you can relate the military has extremely high standards to meet both induction and EMP. Using scatter cell technology to help reduce weight envision something that is lead lined. But is made in a mesh style which they have tested would offer similar shielding. Obviously where ever solid lining is required its used but this is for illustration purposes to drive the point. As another member indicated all the grounding in the world will not protec a home from a direct strike. Given a normal house is not made like a plane what do people believe will happen if lightning was to strike a standard shingled roof?? Now take the same example what happens if a big boomer zaps over your home but does not strike the house? All of us have seen or experienced where you saw a flash of lightning and the next the lights went out. Why?? Sometimes the lightning does strike something in the POCO which trips many systems. Sometimes it doesn't strike anything but the massive induced voltage acts the same way as if it struck directly. Which has exactly the same outcome which is voltage was induced into the wiring. So, if tens of millions of dollars are spent to ensure the electrical supply chain is well grounded. Why then did the Earth grounding not protect agains't such a problem??? Because grounding is only part of the solution as is using a layered approach which is clearly stated by the IEEE, NIST, etc. I simply have to shake my head in disbelief when I read others reply that a person in a standard home has any method to change his environment which depending upon location has any means to. People are going to randomly pull ground rods out of the ground? Will they measure that its below 25 ohms? Will they have any method to correct the #6 copper is not bent, sharp turns, etc? If Joe Average lives in one of the driest places on the planet and it barely rains and his soil is dry. Is he going to water the ground to insure 25 ohms is present?? This is why human's came up with alternatives and solutions . . . Should we all take a step back and assume Westom is 100% correct that a solid Earth ground be present. How is Gods green Earth will it protect a standard wooden house with shingles should it be struck by lightning? Will the ground stop the fire raging in the roof / attic? As another member stated if a lightning rod was present it could offer a chance because it would be grounded to Earth. This assumes the ball of lightning wants to play ball and go to the lightning rod. I would like to think when I reply with comments they are well thought out. That the way I communicate makes sense that the average person can fullly understand what is being said. Ultimately its to offer insight and guidance as to how best to solve a problem . . . To summarily recite information that doesn't address other factors when presented simply makes no sense. People in industry from police, EMS, Hospital, Military, Banks, Financial, haven't been using all of the above as alternate solutions for fun . . . This is not *art* of protection this is science and years of field proven trials and use that affirm its a system that are tied integral to one another. If diameter of wiring was not important why bother calling out a minimum of #6 copper wire? Why can't it be short, straight, and be as thin as my hair??? Oh . . . Because my thin copper hair can't carry enough what, current! If resistance doesn't matter and impedence does what exactly is going to happen when the Earth ground shows 1 kilo ohm? Will the lightning summarily pass through that wire or will it find the path of least resistance?!?!? Finally, if Earth grounding is the ultimate player in all of this why bother installing a SPD??? Isn't Earth grounding that moves 9999999999999 volts from the Gods supposed to magically go to ground when intercepted by a short, straight, #6 copper ground?? No . . . My home, nor is anyone elses built or designed like a cell tower, or super structure that has nothing but metal and a massive grounding system in place. To compare the two is absurd, to expect a person to have any impact on the material design unless considered before hand is also. Ufer grounding has been tried and tested for a reason. Nothing beats area displacement when coupled to proper bonding of the single point ground, nothing.

Oh the irony is something to marvel . . .

I see its apparent you have no real answer to such a simple question. Keeping in mind I have asked you numerous times to explain and offer a alternate solution about grounding in a existing home! [emoji35] I am going to try to keep this very simple OK. The POCO installs the meter and this meter is grounded to EARTH. This same single point ground is used in the electrical panel. This same single point earth ground is referenced by all wiring in the home. Given the above how is the home owner going to improve upon this? [emoji57] Magic?!? [emoji58] As I clearly indicated way above I have a type 1 SPD which is installed at the meter base. Which as I stated uses the same single point earth ground. Is this not enough ? Now, to add to this layer another type 2 SPD is also installed at the electrical panel. Where do you suppose this device is attached to? You got it, the same single point ground that the outside meter is. Is this not enough? Now, to aid in point of use protection type 3 SPD's in various forms are also installed with various specs based on my needs. They are grounded to what!?!?[emoji58] Oh you guessed it to the same single point earth ground! I don't think I can be any clearer on this topic. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

OK, as Mitchel has asked that this stay relevant and pertinent. How do you suppose the average person will meet your expectation of earth grounding?!?! [emoji19] Lastly, you insist upon stating $1.00 could address this. Please show me how this is done with BOM. I am always eager to learn something new. [emoji4] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I am at a complete loss at your reply?!? [emoji37] You do realize in most modern day homes there is a ground wire, right? Which is attached to the very same electrical panel and depending upon codes / location will also be bonded to the main water pipe. Every UL listed 1449 3rd Edition device uses three prongs. If grounding in a home is so good why then would anyone bother installing anything to start with? It's not like a person will have any method to change it out when it exist already. Saying that is the case is ludicrous! As you insist upon stating protection can be had for a dollar please share with the group how this can be achieved and meet all codes and certification!?!? [emoji53] This endless circle talk is truly astounding. As I quoted above from another person please show me where a current spec'd UL 1449 3rd Edition device has caused a fire? I am at a complete loss where you believe any SPD I have referenced has no ground? [emoji58] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

First you need to get your facts straight. I have never been known or used the alias of Bud. I have over 20 plus years always used Teken or the combination of EVIL Teken in all of my forum posts. Second I do not work or have any affiliation to any vendor that makes any sort of SPD's. None . . . Again, information was provided to all for a balanced approach which I emphasized that a layered system using type 1-4 SPD's. I am uncertain as to why this is so hard to comprehend? [emoji53] No one including I disagree that grounding is important which was clearly states about 9999999 times! Yet critical information which pertains to induced voltage, EMP, solutions are ignored. Those are the facts end of story. [emoji4] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I will keep this simple. Yes the one in your link is fine! [emoji4] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I think this is a good compromise plus it removes the whole wall wart issue: http://www.smarthome.com/outletlinc-dimmer-insteon-2472dwh-remote-control-outlet-dual-band-white.html

Once again I shall reference the IEEE / NIST. Which clearly indicate a point of use type 3 SPD is something that should be used in any layered surge arresting system! [emoji19] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Alright I'll bite please show me the BOM for something that cost a dollar. [emoji21] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I am unsure if my communication method is less than stellar? [emoji53] Can you simply answer this question: Can a single point ground protect a piece of electronics from a voltage sag? [emoji45] Can grounding offer protection against a sustained voltage rise of 150 VAC? Will proper grounding offer any protection against frequency drift? Lastly, will proper grounding offer any means of isolation to a device / component? If you can't reply with an answer to these basic questions. I fear conversing about this topic will be extremely difficult. [emoji58] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Well yes man needs to come up with the idea or in many cases stumble upon it. History has proven that many inventions were merely found by accident and not by design or thought. Regardless of the above my intent in this thread was to offer insight and feed back about what has been field proven. This isn't one persons dream, idea, or wish. Companies like APC, Leviton, Eaton, the goes on have tried very hard to offer a product that does what? Meet a need, and in doing so follow best industry practices outlined by engineers and scientist that have vast amounts of personal experience in the field. Whether it be the CEC, NEC, IEEE, NIST, UL / cUL these organizations have over lapping contributions to the question about surge protection / fault tolerances. What I take issue is that Westom believes the two are mutually exclusive? Really??? What is mutually exclusive is comparing a cellular tower to a standard built home! No building that a normal person resides in is crafted or grounded in the same fashion, none! So because this is the case and material fact what is a person to do? It comes down to compromise and making due with solutions that have been field proven to work in all manner of industry. Westom does not address why certain industries mandate that optical isolation is the only tried and true method to negate voltage rise / voltage sag events. Why??? Because optical isolation is field proven . . . A properly built and designed and spec'd opto isolator can not inject more voltage then the sender receiver is designed and built to operate in. The only recourse for a high voltage condition is to summarily melt the device down. Again this is why as I have stated here and in many other forums which the IEEE, NIST, and many others indicate a *Layered Approach* is the best method in a *system* When I supported the military and saw first hand why it is everything is built with layers and redundancy systems. Its because each layer serves a specific purpose in the over all design plan. That is to first reduce loss / risk . . . Next is to have a measure of fail over to insure if something fails something else in line will be at the ready to pick up the slack. The most dangerous and powerful Abrams tank in the USA arsenal is not summarily protect against EMP / Induction just by grounding! It is protected primarily by shielding, isolation, and high tolerance of components. Grounding is obviously integral to the overall design of the system but it is not the primary method to survive EMP or induced high voltages. Magnetic isolation transformers are used every day in my home and in every part of the world. Why??? In part to insure line voltage is never allowed to exceed the design limits of the users environment. It is also used to physically isolate the user from outside forces. A properly designed and built 1 to 1 isolation transformer will never allow line voltage to exceed 120 VAC, ever. That is the whole purpose of its transformer winding's and the transfer of power via magnetic induction. When companies (name what ever) use the above solutions these are field proven methods used in military, hospital, etc. These industries didn't use these methods because some guy named Teken said it was a good idea! They use them because they are field proven to operate in the most extreme conditions where earth grounding is not able to address specific conditions. I hope the information provided helps the forum members and I encourage anyone to seek out the information themselves and find balance.

Quote: Originally Posted by westom Why earth one 'whole house' protector rated at 50,000 amps? ... A 'whole house' protector even sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Provide a link to a protector at Lowes or Home Depot with ratings of 50,000A for less than $50. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Because, for all protectors, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. The IEEE surge guide explains (starting page 30) that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. Earthing occurs elsewhere. They work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment. This is the major fact that westom just ignores. For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information on surge protection. And both say plug-in protectors are effective. Then read the sources that agree with westom that plug-in protectors do NOT work. There are none.

Quote: Originally Posted by westom Take a $4 power strip. Make it look expensive. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it maybe as a Belkin for $55. I am using a major brand plug-in protector that cost $25 with ratings of 590J and 30,000A per MOV, 1770J and 90,000A total. Provide a source for a 30,000A/590J MOV for $0.10. (The 30,000A is not possible even on power service wires. It just goes along with the high joule rating.) Quote: Originally Posted by westom They are not selling protection. Otherwise a sales promoter who promotes power strips would have posted those spec numbers. He cannot. The "promoter" lie repeated. If westom just had valid technical arguments... And the specs above have been posted numerous times. Always ignored buy westom. A 10 year old can find specs. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Even that Belkin does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. The surge protector above is from Belkin and has a protected equipment warranty. Quote: Originally Posted by westom A power strip contains a thermal fuse to disconnect MOVs as fast as possible. Westom only buys poorly engineered cheap foreign junk. I buy well engineered devices from competent manufacturers. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Leaves the surge connected to appliances. The IEEE surge guide explains the protected load can be connected across the MOVs, and be disconnected with them. If wired that way the protected load will not be exposed to surges if the MOVs fail and are disconnected. Starting 2005 UL required manufacturers notify buyers if disconnecting the MOVs does NOT disconnect the protected equipment. This was already posted. Westom just ignores anything that does not fit his very limited beliefs about protection. Quote: Originally Posted by westom MOVs must never fail due to gross undersizing. Undersizing is a problem with power strips. Westom thinks all plug-in protectors are undersized. To pass UL1449 a plug-in protector must survive a series of test surges and remain intact. That at least establishes a floor for protection. High rating are readily available, including the protector above. Quote: Originally Posted by westom For example, Norma on 27 Dec 2008 What ever this was it obviously was not a surge. Westom has no horror stories that involve a UL listed protector made since 1998. Quote: Originally Posted by westom A surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules in the protector circuit? The surge expert from the NIST found the energy absorbed at a plug-in protector was 35 joules max and in 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. That was with surges up to the probable worst case event on power service wires. This was already posted. Westom just ignores anything that does not fit his very limited beliefs about protection. Quote: Originally Posted by westom More responsible companies provide 'whole house' protectors including Intermatic, General Electric, Square D, Siemens, Polyphaser, Leviton, ABB, and Ditek to name only a few. All these "responsible companies" except SquareD and Polyphaser make plug-in protectors and say they are effective. Westom says plug-in protectors don't work. SquareD says for their "best" service panel suppressor "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use."

Let me preface this reply to others who may not be aware by stating Westom and I are familiar with one another. Having said that he and I both hold views that are entrenched on different beliefs, back ground, and technical knowledge. As Westom insists upon separating or making the distinction of human vs component. Lets speak plainly here shall we: Outside of something naturally occurring why is man here? Man is here at the very moment to learn, harness, and control his environment. Everything man does is ultimately to serve his needs and in doing so they coexist. Man came up with ways to measure and protect himself against things like lightning. Man also decided it was a good idea to have some kind of reference, measure, or standard. Because of this man created UL / cUL to define how to measure, protect, and what levels are acceptable. This ever changing document and standard is the 1449 3rd Edition. Westom believes electronic vs man are two distinctions, why?? Does the document and those standards not ultimately relate to man?? What would be the purpose to build something that man could not enjoy or use? Why have standards which I have shown above (referencing) all the same companies and others that meet the very same? Are these companies simply following UL / cUL 1449 3rd Edition because its nice to have? Why does Westom not directly answer why earth grounding can not protect an electronic device impacted by a EMP pulse or induced voltage?? Because grounding is just part of the system . . . Once again I must stress that grounding is one part of the bigger picture when it relates to EMP or induced voltages over the air. Westom will need to answer how does a plane survive a direct strike from lightning?? The answer is its a combination of (systems) and engineering that allows a plane to survive *most* strikes. The outer shell of the plane acts like a Faraday cage. Keeping in mind there is no ground is there because the plane is in the freaking air! But is the planes aluminum frame enough to protect the plane against said lightning? No . . . Devices in the plane are properly shielded, parts are spec'd to have very high endurance and voltage thresholds, along with isolation in the (system). Even with all of this a God like strike can still bring down a plane due to the actual force (energy) the strike has. As I try very hard to provide real world examples such as the fuse Westom insists upon missing the whole point. Why did I offer the fuse as an example?? Because almost every human being can relate to what a simple fuse does. As time went on I provided more examples in hopes of explaining and sharing with the group how (man) has found other methods to accomplish the same like a fuse! They are avalanche diodes, MOV's, Opto Isolators, transformers, etc. Each company can use what ever it is they want to meet a dollar cost or over all goal. Some of the above offer incredible speed at low cost where as others cost more but offer longer life. Again these are simple examples that Westom ignores and believes they have no correlations to the (System Design). Since Westom loves to quote one of my favorite technical groups which is the IEEE. Here are the answers to his questions: Quote: Originally Posted by westom Grossly undersized protectors may even cause house fires. Westom did not answer the question: Where is the record of numerous fires from UL listed protectors made since 1998? Quote: Originally Posted by westom Even a cited NIST guide defined power strip protectors as "useless": Of course that is not what the NIST surge guide says. Immediately following westom's quote is a list of surge protectors that can be used. #6 is "Plug-in...The easiest of all for anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?'" Quote: Originally Posted by westom Same guide also says what any effective protector does: What else does the NIST surge guide say about plug-in protectors? They are "the easiest solution". And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor. Quote: Originally Posted by westom One type does not even claim to protect from destructive surges. Nonsense. Some plug-in protectors even have protected equipment warranties. Quote: Originally Posted by westom If a protector does not have earthing (only has a safety ground - ie power strip), then it must make hundreds of thosuands of joules magically disappear. It is only magic for westom. I explained where most of the energy goes. And that an investigation by the author of NIST surge guide found only 35 joules max at a plug-in protector even with a probable worst case surge. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Latter is also promoted here by one who is paid to promote those "uesless" devices. If westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie. My only association with the surge protection industry is I am using some surge protectors. And I promote only accurate information. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Every professional organization defines what does all protection. For recommendations of professional organizations read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information on surge protection. For plug-in protectors the NIST surge guide says: "Plug-in...The easiest of all for anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?'" Plug-in protectors are "the easiest solution". And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor. IEEE surge guide - has only 2 detailed examples of protection. Both use plug-in protectors. Quote: Originally Posted by westom How many items not on protectors failed? Did every GFCIs, digital clock, the furnace, air conditioner, copier machine, CFL bulb, fax machine, dimmer switch, charger, smoke detector, etc also have protectors? Then why were those not damaged? Or did they have invisible protectors? The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Why would a Tripplite do what its own spec numbers do not claim? Why does westom ignore what manufacturers say? Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warranties. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Every facility that cannot have damage always has superior earthing connected to 'whole house' protectors. Repeating from the NIST surge guide: "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless." Service panel protectors are a real good idea, but may or may not protect equipment with both power and signal connections.

The I/O Linc can be used for dozens of applications it really comes down to your use case and ability to wire it up. One of the easiest and powerful uses are the buzz linc offered by Stu. Essentially its a small micro peizo siren attached the I/O Linc. I use this simple device to alert me when something happens whether it be the GDO is open / closed in a defined scheduled period. Its used to alert me if the smoke bridge, leak sensor, trigger linc activates and pulses different amount of times to indicate what is the cause.

Let me see if I follow your circular logic for a moment because after reading your reply about 99999999999 times it fails to make sense to me or even meet the sniff test. Your insistence on stating that fuses, circuit breakers, are only intended for human safety and not for transistor safety flies in the face to every known electronic device made in the world. Given the fact just those two components are used every day in all manner of devices all around the world! Fuses, diodes, bi-metal, thermisters, MOV, breakers, etc have all been used and continue to be used in every aspect of electronics to protect electronics depending on use case! Do you believe the fuse in your vehicle is only for human safety?!?!? Is the TPM in my iPhone used solely for protection of the device or is it the combination of human and device?!?!? Every purpose built device with any thought will have some kind of regulated power supply and additional fault tolerant component to protect the device from thermal run away or under / over voltage conditions. Not only is this required under specific certification its just good common sense in manufacturing of a final product. This is why UL / cUL are present and depending upon the industry / product they must meet this standards before they are allowed to be sold in their respective markets. Since you're such a fan of numbers as am I lets try to stay on point and offer said facts. Because the circle talk doesn't change the imperial facts as they are known. As I have listed way above which you have also agreed Leviton is one of the most respected and used product used in the free world. As I indicated way above in the first post by me this is the first line of defense I use in my home: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=50240-MSA&section=39659&minisite=10251 Do you see the numbers? Do you see what this device conforms to??? Ah yes . . . This device conforms to the following standard which it either meets or exceeds to bare the mark: UL 1449 3rd Edition This link is from one of the most respected makers in fuses in the free world and breaks down what has changed and what a device must do to meet this UL requirement: http://www.littelfuse.com/about-us/education-center/ul1449.aspx Now lets see what the referenced Panamax surge outlet conforms to: http://www.panamax.com/Products/In-Wall/MIW-SURGE-1G.php#tab_spec Interesting it conforms, meets, and even exceeds the UL 1449 3 Edition by using licenses proprietary technology which many others use also??? Since you're also a fan of Sycom as am I which by the way I also use and referenced. Let see what this maker conforms to and what the numbers you insist upon ranting on about: http://sycomsurge.com/~sycomsur/images/products/SYC-T2%20Series.pdf Interesting this product meets and conforms to what specification and is validated by a 3rd party testing laboratory not only from the UL / cUL, but by another third party independent of them too! Now, lets see what APC / Schneider Electric the largest manufacturer of SPD's and UPS in the free world that is used in every business, home, government, hospital, police, military, air port, etc. http://www.apc.com/home/ca/en/ What conformity does this company and its products follow?? You guessed it UL 1449 3rd Edition. Which again must be tested and validated by a 3rd party lab and UL / cUL to bare the mark. So lets move on with our little field trip shall we and discuss more about lightning or rather voltage. Most people are under the impression that just because you see a ball of lightning in the sky or anywhere else this must be deadly! No . . . Many people are familiar with Tesla coils??? How about when you get a shock from walking on carpet in a dry environment and see a nice spark off your finger?? Everyone knows voltage does not kill its the amount of current that passes through and the duration and where it enters. If an arc of electricity of excess of 20000 - 25000 volts doesn't kill the average person why could that be?? Not enough current to besides the basic resistance a human subject has. When people spout off about how lightning has XXXXXXX volts they never correlate how much current / amps is present. Neither do they acknowledge that each strike is unique and different each time and the amount of voltage and current varies and often times has no more than milliamps! This does not discount the awesome power that can and will kill you and anything it touches whether it be directly or indirectly. Which brings me to the next topic which you seem to like to gloss over and ignore or discount. Again, you believe simple grounding to earth will protect a piece of electronics from induced voltage or EMP?!?!? I hope you do realize that EMP can only be circumvented to a limited degree by shielding. Grounding is one part of the shielding process but material application is the primary method in all war ships, submarines, any military spec device. How do you explain a military hand held radio is able to operate in a EMP environment?? Is it grounding?!?! It certainly isn't magic . . . Its proper shielding and material coating and selective components that are resistant to such effects. Back to resistance because most people know high resistance is bad when speaking about stray voltage. Again you fail to acknowledge or accept imperial fact that if two identical houses built exactly the same but on different soil conditions will pose a higher risk and negate any sort of effective grounding. A person who's house is built on pure dry sand will not have the same electrical grounding potential as someone who lives in a wet clay soil environment, period. The resistance of the two are dramatic and secondary measures must be in place to keep resistance below 25 ohms! As I stated even though my ground soil is perfect with respect to low resistance. I paid extra for my builder to use the tried and true method of Ufer grounding. Coupled with this best practice was tying the single point ground to 50, 100 foot driven piles in the ground. Added was increasing the standard 6 gauge ground wire 4. Regardless of all of the above it makes absolutely no difference if there was an act of God event or EMP! To suggest that simple grounding could protect a person against induced high voltage or EMP is preposterous. Grounding is important and imperative on every level but it is part of other system(s) that if used and applied can help reduce loss. To suggest otherwise is not only untrue but flies in the face of reason and facts. Which brings home one of the most important aspects of electronic protection. More homes are damaged by voltage sags / lulls then lightning events. When voltage drops, current rises! What is a single point ground going to offer the end user here?!?! Nothing . . . Once again let me strike home the advantage of the Panamax *Protect or Disconnect* technology. Depending upon model and unit such as TrippLite. The expected and nominal voltage for a home is 110 - 120 VAC. The POCO is allowed a 5% variance which can sway from 100 to 130 VAC. When voltage drops or raises above 80 - 150 VAC things go up in smoke! This is a far cry from 20, 000 volts from a surge isn't it?? How can a small 80 volts AC damage electronics?!?!? Again as pointed out when voltage drops current rises! Current is what kills you and small traced electronics. To suggest a single point ground will in anyway protect a persons electronics or appliances from a sag in voltage or a rise in voltage which exceeds 150 VAC is false. Keeping in mind I am not talking about a spurt in or drop in voltage in the milliseconds, micro seconds, nano seconds. I am talking about seconds, minutes, hours, etc. A properly designed and equipped AVR system will protect end devices from such swings in long term voltage. Grounding has nothing to do with frequency drift or sag in voltage or where voltage rise is present like from a loose neutral. Bottom line the choices are offered here and people need to decide the risk vs reward that suites there needs. People shouldn't get distracted by circular talk which I have debunked above. Standards continue to be improved, revised, and changed. Standards are there for others to follow and have reference in hopes of protecting people, property, and other. All of these companies I have offered meet, exceed, or excel in their respective fields. Leviton, Panamax, Sycom, TrippLite, Schneider Electric et all did not get there by magic! There wares are not being used in every known industry because they are good talkers with nothing to offer. Any reasonable person should take my writing with a huge heaping of table salt! And do their own research and come up with their own answers as I would expect nothing less. Should you read, learn, and know more about basic protection with respect to SPD's you will come to realize this is basic 101 and there is no magic here. I don't offer circle talk . . .

So you believe grounding will protect a device against EMP? You believe that lighting which can induce vast amounts of high voltage through free air space can be magically dissipated simply by grounding? [emoji53][emoji37] You also believe that electricity can jump via optical isolation and a 1 to 1 magnetic isolation transformer? If so that is truly fantastic! [emoji38] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

As I clearly indicated above the Panamax surge outlet is similar in relative operations to a GFCI / AFCI because it measures the difference which is predetermined by the maker to operate in a safe range. Like a GFCI if there is a potential difference it will trip to avoid a person from getting electrocuted. This happens in milliseconds and is a proven device all around the world. AFCI's measure arching in the wiring and it also trips in milliseconds to protect the wiring with in the buildings super structure. Which again is proven to work all around the world . . . This is where the similarities between these devices (GFCI / AFCI) differ from the Panamax device because its purpose built to measure all three lines ground, neutral, hot / line. Should there be a surge which exceeds the defined limit it will trip very similar to a breaker. Unlike a breaker this device uses a combination of optical relays, 1 to 1 transformers, and other various discreet components to make or break the electrical flow. There are no moving parts in this device, given it uses optical (SSR )relays and a transformer it is mechanically, and physically isolated. Both parts are tuned and limited to operate with in its operating threshold no more. There is no way a standard surge can surpass this device coming from the wiring, none. As I have stated above all the gizmo's in the world will not protect an electronic device from EMP induction, none. I don't care what kind of grounding you have outside of a Faraday cage which in principle forces the magnetic field to be displaced and redirected because it acts like a shield. At MIT they made a mini focused EMP projected weapon for the D.O.D. Anything that was shot with this device no longer operated and this includes any cellular tower etc. Grounding has zero protection on induction or EMP. Again, as I stated above for anyone who has no to limited finances the easiest thing to do is to leave things unplugged, or turn off the breaker. As written above in the most extreme scenarios if the MIT EMP weapon was fired into your house and only speaking about the devices unplugged they too would not operate. So, not to dispute the importance of grounding in a building a home as you stated is NOT designed or wired in the same manner as a cellular tower or otherwise. As you stated also the CEC / NEC is not concerned about surge protection its primary goal is life and safety to insure if there is a over load a breaker will trip in hopes of reducing the odds of a fire. It is only a by product that surge protection is there because ultimately everything is grounded to a single point. Which brings me to the next topic about grounding. Regardless of the distance or in your case the wire length. Wire diameter, location, and the method of bonding are other factors. Never mind ground soil conditions which play more than wire length because it directly impacts the amount of resistance or potential difference your single point ground will ultimately have. A house that is built on sand in a dry location will not have the same resistance as a place built on common soil, clay, silt, rock, etc. Even the tried and true method of installing a Ufer grounding system which I use in my home would be impacted by a dry and sandy foundation soil. So for the average person there isn't a lot a person can do about their environment which brings to the key point about SPD's. Its a moot point that lightning travels and arcs across miles of sky millions of times a year. Because if you're the unlucky basstard who so happens to be hit directly it really doesn't matter what you had! Again, assume the method of penetration is via induction how would the common man protect himself from such an event?? The simple answer is you can't . . . There are specific reasons why type 1-4 SPD's are used all across the world in every industry which includes telco's POCO, etc. More to the point type 3 SPD's offer more protection at the outlet because you have the benefit of the buildings wiring and a device that is designed to either fail open or (make / break contact). Type 1 & 2 primary and secondary SPD's do not protect the home against in line surges which are caused by various appliances in the home as listed above. They also do not react to the same voltage potential as Type 3 SPD's because they are purpose built to operate in the normal and expected range of situation that is common. Keeping in mind I am speaking about proven name brand SPD's and not from the dollar store. Lastly, as I indicated above it can not be understated that a layered approach be used and deployed. At the end of the day none of this really matters because its quite academic in the big picture. Because the only thing that will make you whole is exactly what I said from the very beginning. That is the proper home owners insurance policy with the appropriate coverage for *Act of God* situations like lightning. The reality is billions of people all around the world have been using absolutely nothing in their homes for decades and have been fine in their minds. Nothing wrong with that because its free! But the reality is these people are simply unaware and ignorant as to why *how come* I am replacing my toaster, TV, name any plugged in electronic device in the home in a shorter period of time. When compared to other people and simply chock it off to the device being made cheaply etc. Yes, there is lots of cheap sh^t out there . . . But, no not everything was designed to blow up in a year. If people had the same tools I have and could measure their line voltage and monitor the swing in voltage all day. Never mind seeing the frequency drift and the micro sags that come and go each and every day. They would be shocked to know this happens millions of times a year and generally speaking it doesn't impact most electronics. For those built cheaply any variance can impact their long term service life. When voltage drops 90% of all electronics built today will allow the current to increase exponentially and thus burns out IC's, diodes, traces, etc.

To clarify on the Panamax surge protectors that use the *Protect or Disconnect* feature. Essentially these devices are similar but NOT the same as GFCI / AFCI's. In that they trip a shunted SSR (optical) relay circuit while comparing ground, neutral, line voltage conditions. Meaning unlike MOV's, SAD, Fuses, Diodes, there is nothing to sacrifice or burn up. The circuit is designed to trip based on predetermined voltage levels that are considered safe for general purpose electronics. Because they trip at a reasonable voltage level it will never allow tens of thousands of volts / amps to ever reach the end device.

Michel from UDI has indicated their long term plans and intent are to review all Insteon devices and provide the options when this information is finally made known to them. At the current pace and development the team is hard at work in the ISY frame work for Z-Wave / 5.XX. If I was to place a *need* comparing the two I would (surpringly) rather have them invest their resources into Z-Wave / 5.XX frame work. As much as it pains me to say the Lamp Linc for example isn't the end of the world. By default the device does not beep when pressed or flash the LED when Insteon traffic is present which is good. Because most folks rather it not do so hence why its not the default setting from the factory. For those like me and others who have a need to view it as a trouble shooting / diagnostic tool it would be really nice to be able to set the beep, LED TX, and LED brightness.

I wouldn't call my specific set up an alarm but more of a method to integrate Insteon into my network for more awareness. I've had several battery operated devices like MS, Trigger Lincs, in enclosed or sheltered places all subjected to -40'C and below. The only caveat is that some use Lithium battery cells and others use rechargeable lithium cells which is powered by a solar panel. I have a 25 foot plus pole that has a Axis PTZ camera, LED spot lights, and Insteon MS. I didn't really want to climb up on a ladder in the dead of winter when the mercury was -56'C with the wind chill! So far not one unit has failed me but keep in mind they are not directly open to the elements like sun, wind, rain. But they are indeed outdoors 24/7/365 and have operated for more than five years this way. In my mind extreme heat is more apt to kill an Insteon device than cold but there is a line where it will simply kill a device. In one device I extended the antenna to resemble the leak sensor because I needed more (directional) signaling to a dual band device. It took a few days to figure out the best orientation and direction before I could receive reliable RF COM's. In another location it took me a few weeks to figure out the correct length of cable to extend the antenna so it would still be tuned correctly or close to it.

For those just reading this thread for the very first time I would like to summerize the over all topic. 1. Smartlabs: Has over the years used different naming conventions and phrases for various hardware devices. This has been seen in their HUB (App) controllers, House Linc 2, etc. 2. Third Party: Many of the 3rd party vendors have been known to follow the development guid for naming features and options. Where as others have tried to follow the public facing documents and devices / software as listed above in (1). 3. Features & Options: Over the years UDI and others have not received all the required information about how to properly impliment code to support for new or existing Insteon hardware. This has been seen in the Leak Sensor, Trigger Linc (Open-Close), Hidden Door, Morning Lock, the list goes on. 4. Communications: Smartlabs has over the years not been known for very good communications. This lack of feed back has ultimately resulted in devices not being supported correctly from other vendors such as UDI. Having said this, its my view once this information is made known all features and options should be made available to the end user(s). Because these features are intended for use and applications that may suite a persons use case. An example of a device which has not been properly supported is the latest dual band lamp linc. The option(s) to enable beep, blink on TX are only available via a software controller. These options are not present in the ISY Series Controller and there is no manual method to enable them. 5. Firmware: It has been noted that Smartlabs which related to point (4) does not communicate when firmware is adjusted, modified, or deprecated. Meaning a person can have the exact same hardware release date, firmware, ISY version. But the device will operate completely different then others. This was seen in the Leak Sensor where the device would send a change of state from wet to dry with out any user intervention. Later firmware releases required the end user to physically press the set button to change that wet to dry state. This was also seen in the latest Trigger Linc / Open-Close sensor where the device had the ability to see and adjust the heart beat, battery nodes. Previous generation devices did not have either battery / heart beat nodes. Later firmware releases provided heart beat but no method to adjust the interval. The last release of this device indicates the battery / heart beat nodes are not only present but can be adjusted. This was first seen in the hidden door sensor. In closing, the average consumer should not take what the users manual, development guide, or any physical device as the end all, be all. Smartlabs continues to change and update their wares which is fine because over all this makes the product better. But the lack of coninutity and disconnect from published documents often times leads to confusion and discontent from the general public. Because people are referencing forums such as this in the hopes of applying or using said features. The problem is Smartlabs continues to move the goal line and its a moving target that the public simply has to accept and adapt to. Bottom line: Use the forums to obtain the most up to date information as it pertains to features, options, and best practices with programming. Its safe to say all of us continue to learn new things and accept the ever changing features that come with using Insteon products. The reality is in the big picture regardless of all my past bitching about communications. Its apparent to me Smartlabs is listening to the public and have included many features never seen before which is great!

Would you please read your own reply. It conflicts with exactly what you posted in the screen capture! It's blink on error! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent