Teken

Let me preface this reply to others who may not be aware by stating Westom and I are familiar with one another. Having said that he and I both hold views that are entrenched on different beliefs, back ground, and technical knowledge. As Westom insists upon separating or making the distinction of human vs component. Lets speak plainly here shall we: Outside of something naturally occurring why is man here? Man is here at the very moment to learn, harness, and control his environment. Everything man does is ultimately to serve his needs and in doing so they coexist. Man came up with ways to measure and protect himself against things like lightning. Man also decided it was a good idea to have some kind of reference, measure, or standard. Because of this man created UL / cUL to define how to measure, protect, and what levels are acceptable. This ever changing document and standard is the 1449 3rd Edition. Westom believes electronic vs man are two distinctions, why?? Does the document and those standards not ultimately relate to man?? What would be the purpose to build something that man could not enjoy or use? Why have standards which I have shown above (referencing) all the same companies and others that meet the very same? Are these companies simply following UL / cUL 1449 3rd Edition because its nice to have? Why does Westom not directly answer why earth grounding can not protect an electronic device impacted by a EMP pulse or induced voltage?? Because grounding is just part of the system . . . Once again I must stress that grounding is one part of the bigger picture when it relates to EMP or induced voltages over the air. Westom will need to answer how does a plane survive a direct strike from lightning?? The answer is its a combination of (systems) and engineering that allows a plane to survive *most* strikes. The outer shell of the plane acts like a Faraday cage. Keeping in mind there is no ground is there because the plane is in the freaking air! But is the planes aluminum frame enough to protect the plane against said lightning? No . . . Devices in the plane are properly shielded, parts are spec'd to have very high endurance and voltage thresholds, along with isolation in the (system). Even with all of this a God like strike can still bring down a plane due to the actual force (energy) the strike has. As I try very hard to provide real world examples such as the fuse Westom insists upon missing the whole point. Why did I offer the fuse as an example?? Because almost every human being can relate to what a simple fuse does. As time went on I provided more examples in hopes of explaining and sharing with the group how (man) has found other methods to accomplish the same like a fuse! They are avalanche diodes, MOV's, Opto Isolators, transformers, etc. Each company can use what ever it is they want to meet a dollar cost or over all goal. Some of the above offer incredible speed at low cost where as others cost more but offer longer life. Again these are simple examples that Westom ignores and believes they have no correlations to the (System Design). Since Westom loves to quote one of my favorite technical groups which is the IEEE. Here are the answers to his questions: Quote: Originally Posted by westom Grossly undersized protectors may even cause house fires. Westom did not answer the question: Where is the record of numerous fires from UL listed protectors made since 1998? Quote: Originally Posted by westom Even a cited NIST guide defined power strip protectors as "useless": Of course that is not what the NIST surge guide says. Immediately following westom's quote is a list of surge protectors that can be used. #6 is "Plug-in...The easiest of all for anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?'" Quote: Originally Posted by westom Same guide also says what any effective protector does: What else does the NIST surge guide say about plug-in protectors? They are "the easiest solution". And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor. Quote: Originally Posted by westom One type does not even claim to protect from destructive surges. Nonsense. Some plug-in protectors even have protected equipment warranties. Quote: Originally Posted by westom If a protector does not have earthing (only has a safety ground - ie power strip), then it must make hundreds of thosuands of joules magically disappear. It is only magic for westom. I explained where most of the energy goes. And that an investigation by the author of NIST surge guide found only 35 joules max at a plug-in protector even with a probable worst case surge. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Latter is also promoted here by one who is paid to promote those "uesless" devices. If westom had valid technical arguments he wouldn't have to lie. My only association with the surge protection industry is I am using some surge protectors. And I promote only accurate information. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Every professional organization defines what does all protection. For recommendations of professional organizations read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information on surge protection. For plug-in protectors the NIST surge guide says: "Plug-in...The easiest of all for anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?'" Plug-in protectors are "the easiest solution". And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor. IEEE surge guide - has only 2 detailed examples of protection. Both use plug-in protectors. Quote: Originally Posted by westom How many items not on protectors failed? Did every GFCIs, digital clock, the furnace, air conditioner, copier machine, CFL bulb, fax machine, dimmer switch, charger, smoke detector, etc also have protectors? Then why were those not damaged? Or did they have invisible protectors? The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Why would a Tripplite do what its own spec numbers do not claim? Why does westom ignore what manufacturers say? Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warranties. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Every facility that cannot have damage always has superior earthing connected to 'whole house' protectors. Repeating from the NIST surge guide: "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless." Service panel protectors are a real good idea, but may or may not protect equipment with both power and signal connections.

The I/O Linc can be used for dozens of applications it really comes down to your use case and ability to wire it up. One of the easiest and powerful uses are the buzz linc offered by Stu. Essentially its a small micro peizo siren attached the I/O Linc. I use this simple device to alert me when something happens whether it be the GDO is open / closed in a defined scheduled period. Its used to alert me if the smoke bridge, leak sensor, trigger linc activates and pulses different amount of times to indicate what is the cause.

Let me see if I follow your circular logic for a moment because after reading your reply about 99999999999 times it fails to make sense to me or even meet the sniff test. Your insistence on stating that fuses, circuit breakers, are only intended for human safety and not for transistor safety flies in the face to every known electronic device made in the world. Given the fact just those two components are used every day in all manner of devices all around the world! Fuses, diodes, bi-metal, thermisters, MOV, breakers, etc have all been used and continue to be used in every aspect of electronics to protect electronics depending on use case! Do you believe the fuse in your vehicle is only for human safety?!?!? Is the TPM in my iPhone used solely for protection of the device or is it the combination of human and device?!?!? Every purpose built device with any thought will have some kind of regulated power supply and additional fault tolerant component to protect the device from thermal run away or under / over voltage conditions. Not only is this required under specific certification its just good common sense in manufacturing of a final product. This is why UL / cUL are present and depending upon the industry / product they must meet this standards before they are allowed to be sold in their respective markets. Since you're such a fan of numbers as am I lets try to stay on point and offer said facts. Because the circle talk doesn't change the imperial facts as they are known. As I have listed way above which you have also agreed Leviton is one of the most respected and used product used in the free world. As I indicated way above in the first post by me this is the first line of defense I use in my home: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=50240-MSA&section=39659&minisite=10251 Do you see the numbers? Do you see what this device conforms to??? Ah yes . . . This device conforms to the following standard which it either meets or exceeds to bare the mark: UL 1449 3rd Edition This link is from one of the most respected makers in fuses in the free world and breaks down what has changed and what a device must do to meet this UL requirement: http://www.littelfuse.com/about-us/education-center/ul1449.aspx Now lets see what the referenced Panamax surge outlet conforms to: http://www.panamax.com/Products/In-Wall/MIW-SURGE-1G.php#tab_spec Interesting it conforms, meets, and even exceeds the UL 1449 3 Edition by using licenses proprietary technology which many others use also??? Since you're also a fan of Sycom as am I which by the way I also use and referenced. Let see what this maker conforms to and what the numbers you insist upon ranting on about: http://sycomsurge.com/~sycomsur/images/products/SYC-T2%20Series.pdf Interesting this product meets and conforms to what specification and is validated by a 3rd party testing laboratory not only from the UL / cUL, but by another third party independent of them too! Now, lets see what APC / Schneider Electric the largest manufacturer of SPD's and UPS in the free world that is used in every business, home, government, hospital, police, military, air port, etc. http://www.apc.com/home/ca/en/ What conformity does this company and its products follow?? You guessed it UL 1449 3rd Edition. Which again must be tested and validated by a 3rd party lab and UL / cUL to bare the mark. So lets move on with our little field trip shall we and discuss more about lightning or rather voltage. Most people are under the impression that just because you see a ball of lightning in the sky or anywhere else this must be deadly! No . . . Many people are familiar with Tesla coils??? How about when you get a shock from walking on carpet in a dry environment and see a nice spark off your finger?? Everyone knows voltage does not kill its the amount of current that passes through and the duration and where it enters. If an arc of electricity of excess of 20000 - 25000 volts doesn't kill the average person why could that be?? Not enough current to besides the basic resistance a human subject has. When people spout off about how lightning has XXXXXXX volts they never correlate how much current / amps is present. Neither do they acknowledge that each strike is unique and different each time and the amount of voltage and current varies and often times has no more than milliamps! This does not discount the awesome power that can and will kill you and anything it touches whether it be directly or indirectly. Which brings me to the next topic which you seem to like to gloss over and ignore or discount. Again, you believe simple grounding to earth will protect a piece of electronics from induced voltage or EMP?!?!? I hope you do realize that EMP can only be circumvented to a limited degree by shielding. Grounding is one part of the shielding process but material application is the primary method in all war ships, submarines, any military spec device. How do you explain a military hand held radio is able to operate in a EMP environment?? Is it grounding?!?! It certainly isn't magic . . . Its proper shielding and material coating and selective components that are resistant to such effects. Back to resistance because most people know high resistance is bad when speaking about stray voltage. Again you fail to acknowledge or accept imperial fact that if two identical houses built exactly the same but on different soil conditions will pose a higher risk and negate any sort of effective grounding. A person who's house is built on pure dry sand will not have the same electrical grounding potential as someone who lives in a wet clay soil environment, period. The resistance of the two are dramatic and secondary measures must be in place to keep resistance below 25 ohms! As I stated even though my ground soil is perfect with respect to low resistance. I paid extra for my builder to use the tried and true method of Ufer grounding. Coupled with this best practice was tying the single point ground to 50, 100 foot driven piles in the ground. Added was increasing the standard 6 gauge ground wire 4. Regardless of all of the above it makes absolutely no difference if there was an act of God event or EMP! To suggest that simple grounding could protect a person against induced high voltage or EMP is preposterous. Grounding is important and imperative on every level but it is part of other system(s) that if used and applied can help reduce loss. To suggest otherwise is not only untrue but flies in the face of reason and facts. Which brings home one of the most important aspects of electronic protection. More homes are damaged by voltage sags / lulls then lightning events. When voltage drops, current rises! What is a single point ground going to offer the end user here?!?! Nothing . . . Once again let me strike home the advantage of the Panamax *Protect or Disconnect* technology. Depending upon model and unit such as TrippLite. The expected and nominal voltage for a home is 110 - 120 VAC. The POCO is allowed a 5% variance which can sway from 100 to 130 VAC. When voltage drops or raises above 80 - 150 VAC things go up in smoke! This is a far cry from 20, 000 volts from a surge isn't it?? How can a small 80 volts AC damage electronics?!?!? Again as pointed out when voltage drops current rises! Current is what kills you and small traced electronics. To suggest a single point ground will in anyway protect a persons electronics or appliances from a sag in voltage or a rise in voltage which exceeds 150 VAC is false. Keeping in mind I am not talking about a spurt in or drop in voltage in the milliseconds, micro seconds, nano seconds. I am talking about seconds, minutes, hours, etc. A properly designed and equipped AVR system will protect end devices from such swings in long term voltage. Grounding has nothing to do with frequency drift or sag in voltage or where voltage rise is present like from a loose neutral. Bottom line the choices are offered here and people need to decide the risk vs reward that suites there needs. People shouldn't get distracted by circular talk which I have debunked above. Standards continue to be improved, revised, and changed. Standards are there for others to follow and have reference in hopes of protecting people, property, and other. All of these companies I have offered meet, exceed, or excel in their respective fields. Leviton, Panamax, Sycom, TrippLite, Schneider Electric et all did not get there by magic! There wares are not being used in every known industry because they are good talkers with nothing to offer. Any reasonable person should take my writing with a huge heaping of table salt! And do their own research and come up with their own answers as I would expect nothing less. Should you read, learn, and know more about basic protection with respect to SPD's you will come to realize this is basic 101 and there is no magic here. I don't offer circle talk . . .

So you believe grounding will protect a device against EMP? You believe that lighting which can induce vast amounts of high voltage through free air space can be magically dissipated simply by grounding? [emoji53][emoji37] You also believe that electricity can jump via optical isolation and a 1 to 1 magnetic isolation transformer? If so that is truly fantastic! [emoji38] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

As I clearly indicated above the Panamax surge outlet is similar in relative operations to a GFCI / AFCI because it measures the difference which is predetermined by the maker to operate in a safe range. Like a GFCI if there is a potential difference it will trip to avoid a person from getting electrocuted. This happens in milliseconds and is a proven device all around the world. AFCI's measure arching in the wiring and it also trips in milliseconds to protect the wiring with in the buildings super structure. Which again is proven to work all around the world . . . This is where the similarities between these devices (GFCI / AFCI) differ from the Panamax device because its purpose built to measure all three lines ground, neutral, hot / line. Should there be a surge which exceeds the defined limit it will trip very similar to a breaker. Unlike a breaker this device uses a combination of optical relays, 1 to 1 transformers, and other various discreet components to make or break the electrical flow. There are no moving parts in this device, given it uses optical (SSR )relays and a transformer it is mechanically, and physically isolated. Both parts are tuned and limited to operate with in its operating threshold no more. There is no way a standard surge can surpass this device coming from the wiring, none. As I have stated above all the gizmo's in the world will not protect an electronic device from EMP induction, none. I don't care what kind of grounding you have outside of a Faraday cage which in principle forces the magnetic field to be displaced and redirected because it acts like a shield. At MIT they made a mini focused EMP projected weapon for the D.O.D. Anything that was shot with this device no longer operated and this includes any cellular tower etc. Grounding has zero protection on induction or EMP. Again, as I stated above for anyone who has no to limited finances the easiest thing to do is to leave things unplugged, or turn off the breaker. As written above in the most extreme scenarios if the MIT EMP weapon was fired into your house and only speaking about the devices unplugged they too would not operate. So, not to dispute the importance of grounding in a building a home as you stated is NOT designed or wired in the same manner as a cellular tower or otherwise. As you stated also the CEC / NEC is not concerned about surge protection its primary goal is life and safety to insure if there is a over load a breaker will trip in hopes of reducing the odds of a fire. It is only a by product that surge protection is there because ultimately everything is grounded to a single point. Which brings me to the next topic about grounding. Regardless of the distance or in your case the wire length. Wire diameter, location, and the method of bonding are other factors. Never mind ground soil conditions which play more than wire length because it directly impacts the amount of resistance or potential difference your single point ground will ultimately have. A house that is built on sand in a dry location will not have the same resistance as a place built on common soil, clay, silt, rock, etc. Even the tried and true method of installing a Ufer grounding system which I use in my home would be impacted by a dry and sandy foundation soil. So for the average person there isn't a lot a person can do about their environment which brings to the key point about SPD's. Its a moot point that lightning travels and arcs across miles of sky millions of times a year. Because if you're the unlucky basstard who so happens to be hit directly it really doesn't matter what you had! Again, assume the method of penetration is via induction how would the common man protect himself from such an event?? The simple answer is you can't . . . There are specific reasons why type 1-4 SPD's are used all across the world in every industry which includes telco's POCO, etc. More to the point type 3 SPD's offer more protection at the outlet because you have the benefit of the buildings wiring and a device that is designed to either fail open or (make / break contact). Type 1 & 2 primary and secondary SPD's do not protect the home against in line surges which are caused by various appliances in the home as listed above. They also do not react to the same voltage potential as Type 3 SPD's because they are purpose built to operate in the normal and expected range of situation that is common. Keeping in mind I am speaking about proven name brand SPD's and not from the dollar store. Lastly, as I indicated above it can not be understated that a layered approach be used and deployed. At the end of the day none of this really matters because its quite academic in the big picture. Because the only thing that will make you whole is exactly what I said from the very beginning. That is the proper home owners insurance policy with the appropriate coverage for *Act of God* situations like lightning. The reality is billions of people all around the world have been using absolutely nothing in their homes for decades and have been fine in their minds. Nothing wrong with that because its free! But the reality is these people are simply unaware and ignorant as to why *how come* I am replacing my toaster, TV, name any plugged in electronic device in the home in a shorter period of time. When compared to other people and simply chock it off to the device being made cheaply etc. Yes, there is lots of cheap sh^t out there . . . But, no not everything was designed to blow up in a year. If people had the same tools I have and could measure their line voltage and monitor the swing in voltage all day. Never mind seeing the frequency drift and the micro sags that come and go each and every day. They would be shocked to know this happens millions of times a year and generally speaking it doesn't impact most electronics. For those built cheaply any variance can impact their long term service life. When voltage drops 90% of all electronics built today will allow the current to increase exponentially and thus burns out IC's, diodes, traces, etc.

To clarify on the Panamax surge protectors that use the *Protect or Disconnect* feature. Essentially these devices are similar but NOT the same as GFCI / AFCI's. In that they trip a shunted SSR (optical) relay circuit while comparing ground, neutral, line voltage conditions. Meaning unlike MOV's, SAD, Fuses, Diodes, there is nothing to sacrifice or burn up. The circuit is designed to trip based on predetermined voltage levels that are considered safe for general purpose electronics. Because they trip at a reasonable voltage level it will never allow tens of thousands of volts / amps to ever reach the end device.

Michel from UDI has indicated their long term plans and intent are to review all Insteon devices and provide the options when this information is finally made known to them. At the current pace and development the team is hard at work in the ISY frame work for Z-Wave / 5.XX. If I was to place a *need* comparing the two I would (surpringly) rather have them invest their resources into Z-Wave / 5.XX frame work. As much as it pains me to say the Lamp Linc for example isn't the end of the world. By default the device does not beep when pressed or flash the LED when Insteon traffic is present which is good. Because most folks rather it not do so hence why its not the default setting from the factory. For those like me and others who have a need to view it as a trouble shooting / diagnostic tool it would be really nice to be able to set the beep, LED TX, and LED brightness.

I wouldn't call my specific set up an alarm but more of a method to integrate Insteon into my network for more awareness. I've had several battery operated devices like MS, Trigger Lincs, in enclosed or sheltered places all subjected to -40'C and below. The only caveat is that some use Lithium battery cells and others use rechargeable lithium cells which is powered by a solar panel. I have a 25 foot plus pole that has a Axis PTZ camera, LED spot lights, and Insteon MS. I didn't really want to climb up on a ladder in the dead of winter when the mercury was -56'C with the wind chill! So far not one unit has failed me but keep in mind they are not directly open to the elements like sun, wind, rain. But they are indeed outdoors 24/7/365 and have operated for more than five years this way. In my mind extreme heat is more apt to kill an Insteon device than cold but there is a line where it will simply kill a device. In one device I extended the antenna to resemble the leak sensor because I needed more (directional) signaling to a dual band device. It took a few days to figure out the best orientation and direction before I could receive reliable RF COM's. In another location it took me a few weeks to figure out the correct length of cable to extend the antenna so it would still be tuned correctly or close to it.

For those just reading this thread for the very first time I would like to summerize the over all topic. 1. Smartlabs: Has over the years used different naming conventions and phrases for various hardware devices. This has been seen in their HUB (App) controllers, House Linc 2, etc. 2. Third Party: Many of the 3rd party vendors have been known to follow the development guid for naming features and options. Where as others have tried to follow the public facing documents and devices / software as listed above in (1). 3. Features & Options: Over the years UDI and others have not received all the required information about how to properly impliment code to support for new or existing Insteon hardware. This has been seen in the Leak Sensor, Trigger Linc (Open-Close), Hidden Door, Morning Lock, the list goes on. 4. Communications: Smartlabs has over the years not been known for very good communications. This lack of feed back has ultimately resulted in devices not being supported correctly from other vendors such as UDI. Having said this, its my view once this information is made known all features and options should be made available to the end user(s). Because these features are intended for use and applications that may suite a persons use case. An example of a device which has not been properly supported is the latest dual band lamp linc. The option(s) to enable beep, blink on TX are only available via a software controller. These options are not present in the ISY Series Controller and there is no manual method to enable them. 5. Firmware: It has been noted that Smartlabs which related to point (4) does not communicate when firmware is adjusted, modified, or deprecated. Meaning a person can have the exact same hardware release date, firmware, ISY version. But the device will operate completely different then others. This was seen in the Leak Sensor where the device would send a change of state from wet to dry with out any user intervention. Later firmware releases required the end user to physically press the set button to change that wet to dry state. This was also seen in the latest Trigger Linc / Open-Close sensor where the device had the ability to see and adjust the heart beat, battery nodes. Previous generation devices did not have either battery / heart beat nodes. Later firmware releases provided heart beat but no method to adjust the interval. The last release of this device indicates the battery / heart beat nodes are not only present but can be adjusted. This was first seen in the hidden door sensor. In closing, the average consumer should not take what the users manual, development guide, or any physical device as the end all, be all. Smartlabs continues to change and update their wares which is fine because over all this makes the product better. But the lack of coninutity and disconnect from published documents often times leads to confusion and discontent from the general public. Because people are referencing forums such as this in the hopes of applying or using said features. The problem is Smartlabs continues to move the goal line and its a moving target that the public simply has to accept and adapt to. Bottom line: Use the forums to obtain the most up to date information as it pertains to features, options, and best practices with programming. Its safe to say all of us continue to learn new things and accept the ever changing features that come with using Insteon products. The reality is in the big picture regardless of all my past bitching about communications. Its apparent to me Smartlabs is listening to the public and have included many features never seen before which is great!

Would you please read your own reply. It conflicts with exactly what you posted in the screen capture! It's blink on error! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

So your eyes and screen capture are lying to you? [emoji53][emoji58] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Also the on-off module does not use blink on TX. It's blink on error. Whereas the other is LED on TX. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Over the years some of the devices firmware features have been renamed. However, I do agree that all options should be made available if the product supports it. If you do a search under my profile you will see where I first asked this same very question. The current shipping lamp linc is still missing several options which are clearly listed in the full users manual. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

If the device is in safe mode nothing will operate as you expect. You will want to install the firmware outlined by Michel that avoids the whole issue. There is no downside here for those with a hybrid environment. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Please keep in mind if finances are not readily available for such hardware. Two of the easiest things to do is leave items not regularly used unplugged. Next, assuming the home is wired appropriately is to switch off breakers. If the above are not possible solutions for you. Then installing one or more of the SPD's are a good solution. As indicated above using a UPS system provides back up power but does not automatically mean it will provide frequency regulation. Most lower cost UPS also provide modified sine wave and not a pure sine wave as seen from the POCO. Also it should be noted many SPD's have a huge voltage range before they step in. That can exceed 85 VAC to 170 VAC. Most electronics however are designed to operate in this range without much issue. Depending upon what the appliance is sometimes there can be issues with low voltage conditions. When devices need steady state power a AVR system should be used. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

The following devices protect my home from surge events: Type 1: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/SectionDisplay.jsp?section=39659&minisite=10251 Type 2: http://sycomsurge.com/products/SYC_120_240_T2-4-3.html Type 3: http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=7280-W&section=39994&minisite=10251 Type 3: http://www.panamax.com/Products/In-Wall/MIW-SURGE-1G.php Type 3: http://www.panamax.com/Products/Floor-Models/MFP-300.php Type 3: http://www.tripplite.com/isobar-8-outlet-surge-protector-12-ft-cord-3840-joules~ISOBAR8ULTRA/ Type 3: http://www.tripplite.com/surge-protector-isobar-2-outlets-direct-plug-in-1410-joule-black~ULTRABLOK/ Isolation Transformer: http://www.tripplite.com/isolator-series-120v-1000w-isolation-transformer-based-power-conditioner-4-outlets~IS1000/ Regulated AVR: http://www.tripplite.com/line-conditioner-2400w-avr-system-automatic-voltage-regulator-power-conditioner-ac-surge-protector~LC2400/ APC Whole House Symmetra 120/240 VAC: http://www.apc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=189 It should be noted the Panamax SPD's use a licensed proprietary hardware feature which is called *Protect or Disconnect*. Unlike other MOV, SAD, Diode, etc. There is nothing sacrificial with in the device so there is nothing to burn up or break down. As I have mentioned many times in this forum and others surge protection must be staged and applied in a tiered fashion. No amount of surge protection will protect your home or electronics from a low voltage / high voltage condition, none. No surge protector will protect you from a frequency drift unless designed to do so. No surge protector will protect you from in band surges most commonly found generated within the home: Fridge, Sump, HVAC, etc. This is why point of use Type 3 SPD's must be used because there are more micro surges caused by in band devices than what comes from the outside. Regardless of all the tech, bells and whistles, no amount of surge protection will protect your home from over the air EMI from a lightning strike which causes induction into the wire. As stated by others above proper grounding and a low resistance ground is the primary method to shunt to ground any surge faults. Besides using all of the above gizmo's you really need to have good home owners insurance to cover your home and its appliances etc. This is the only thing that will make you whole as you will often times find the so called lifetime warranty isn't worth the paper its printed on. Lastly, almost every manufacture has specific requirements to put in force their warranty coverage. Do not gloss this over or fail to read the *small print* etc.

Are you sure the trigger reverse is not set? Also which magnetic sensor do you have the new one which is very little? Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

There is no harm using the HUB / HL2 to enable those options. So long as you delete it from the various systems when done. It should also be noted if you ever use the LED brightness via the ISY Series Controller. You will find that the default LED brightness is much dimmer than how the device came from the factory. In some cases even hard resetting a piece of hardware has no affect on restoring the LED brightness. So please keep this in mind should you ever consider making this change. I've seen this odd behavior on the KPL's, plugin lamp linc and On-Off modules that just came out. Nobody has been able to explain why performing a hard reset does not in fact bring the device back to a OEM state. It comes across that the ISY has some unknown ability to over ride these values in the hardware.

Unfortunately, one would think since its 2015 that manufacturers would use all that vast knowledge, techniques, and design principles they garnered over the years to produce a long term reliable product. The reality is its the race to the bottom and most of that is driven by consumer demands. I can freely admit I want cheap things because it helps the pocket book and offers value. So I know I am also part of the problem and over the last ten years of tried very hard to change my attitude and focus on rewarding those that truly produce top notch products and hardware. I lived and breath on the cheap and know 70% of the time I made out like a bandit and received lots of value for my money. While on the other side of that the remaining 30% I was a sucker and got what I paid for. Pure junk because I was simply being a cheap aszz! No more . . . My mentality is spend my money once and spend it well! In the last ten years there hasn't been very many regrets or *I wish I should have* situations. Why? I stopped, looked, and listened to those before me that provided not only insight but personal experience of a product etc. I don't know how people feel about the Internet as a whole. But I can tell you from a personal view I love the Internet and the ability to share, learn, and obtain almost anything I want. In the end all of use need to change our buying habits and reward those makers that produce top quality products with their finances. Nothing speaks louder than ones pocket book! There is a custom program that I will try to find for the forum members. This program was created by another forum I was active on more than 15 years ago. This novel program allows a person to inventory any item they want in their home. The main feature which many love is having the ability to create categories along with embedding a photo whether it be the item or receipt or both. Then you have a area where you can write down a description of the item with what ever details you wish. This data base then can be saved to a USB drive, CD, DVD, or to the cloud like SkyDrive, etc. In the end it allows a person to have a scanned copy of a receipt, photo, and description and is great for insurance purposes! I've been meaning to use this small software application for years but have opted to use whats convenient at the time which is my phone and then its simply synced to the cloud and I always have a receipt and photo for historic recall.

LOL . . . Even the 51st State does too!

That's just awesome I can't wait! [emoji2] When we cut off electricity, water, and many natural resources to the USA. 26 of the 50 States will either be thrown back into the Stone Age. Or simply all die off from a lack of water! [emoji4] By default we just have to wait it out until tens of millions of people get into civil war kill one another. While we sit back and wait to take over the free land! Awesome . . . I love American politics ! Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Understood and agree! I guess when you're used to seeing and using 2 form factor authentication it seems weird that an appliance or device such as a ISY Series Controller is simply being tasked with a more complex password and not actually being challenged with a follow up SMS message etc. Obviously the ISY can't reply back with the inbound SMS because its not aware of it. I guess since I was already using a random password generator it didn't seem like this offered more. But with respect to the actual GMAIL account there is no doubt it does and I do enjoy this ability. Sometimes it gets a little tedious getting a phone call or SMS to the cell phone. But when you have been doing similar things but in a much more intense fashion its just part of the process most of us are forced to use and reluctantly have to accept and get used to. Again, thank you for letting me know this feature exists as the account I use for the ISY is only dedicated to send message from the ISY Series Controller and never took much thought about making it more secure.

MF_Bra, Much thanks for bringing this ability to my attention. It must have been awhile since I looked into this. Because I believe two years ago Googles mail service didn't support devices like the ISY Series Controller in this manner. Because the old and existing method always sends a SMS message code as a challenge as part of the 2 form Auth. Just curious how this provides more protection to the ISY? Or to my gmail account when the device isn't being challenged at all and simply uses a complex 16 digit pass code? [emoji53] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

This App password is used instead of the normal gmail password that is populated in the ISY within the SMTP settings? [emoji53] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I haven't done this can you outline the steps to complete this task? Ideals are peaceful - History is violent