Teken

So on a quick related tangent are all (current) shipping Insteon products from relay switches, dimmers, and various KPL's all using the dual colored LED?? I ask because the SH advert site and full users manual do not indicate that being the case.

Anything you have to share with the group would be greatly appreciated. [emoji4][emoji5]️ Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I gather you didn't watch my video because it mimics exactly what is happening on your side? [emoji53] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

This KPL was the first generation of the dual band relay which I will need to get the firmware / hardware revision. Anyways, this is how they react when the 4 tap (beacon) test is initiated. The SWL also blink the bottom LED and the problem I was trying to determine was *Is it same phase - opposite phase* Those who have the newer dual colored LED's are in great shape! For those like me and anyone with legacy products its quite the bear to figure out the expected behavior. The QSG and full users manual also (sometimes) are not very clear on this aspect because older PDF manuals seem to go poof! NOTE: The original link was incorrect. I have since added the correct resource link above.

This looks exactly like a 4 tap beacon test was initiated by something: http://vid941.photobucket.com/albums/ad254/EVIL_Teken/Insteon/07A17535-F2D6-4B2B-968C-34C19FFDF621_zpsqcb80tf3.mp4 I documented this behavior a few months ago here: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/16399-insteon-2635-222-onoff-module-4-tap-beacon-test/?hl=%2Bbeacon+%2Btest EDIT: Not sure why I copied the wrong link but here is the correct one: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/16485-kpl-4-tap-bridging-coupling-beacon-test/?hl=%2Bbeacon+%2Btest

LOL . . . I apologize let me clarify what you can do and see with in the ISY Series Controller. 1 - When creating a program in the (IF) section you select the *Status* which will have the option to select different power values from -1 to -150 watts, 1 to 20000 watts. The variables you may select are from: is, is not, >, <, >=, <=. 2 - When creating a program in the (THEN) section you have the option to select *Insteon* and the only options that pertain to the unit is: Reset power, Query, and various beep duration's. 3 - There is no current method to act upon the KWH total you see in the main page for the iMeter Solo. But, Michel has indicated this is something in the works. - Essentially, you can apply 1 & 2 and create programs that the Insteon network would react to. Whether that be (IF) something has exceeded the power levels you set. To monitor what the power value is at that current time. Some have used it to determine if the washer cycle has completed and then send an alert. While others have used the device to detect if the fridge has gone into defrost mode. While others have used to see if the doors to the fridge / freezer is left ajar. I hope the above provides a little more clarity and if not please do ask and I shall try to expand on the information.

What aspect are you looking for? The iMeter Solo is already supported in a limited fashion.

The legacy names have remained for what ever reason for older devices before smartlabs decided to call them something else. [emoji53] It's not anything to worry about and this question comes up at least 2-3 times a year. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Why don't you create a dedicated gmail account for the ISY Series Controller? This provided dedicated service and the ability to use a short name. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

There is no CEMF with respect to lightning. CEMF is the result of a collapsing magnetic field induced on to the other coil or device. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Yes, in some places they are spaced say 5-6 feet apart but they are tied together. Ignoring to tie them together can cause ground loops and voltage difference. Above I have touched upon how ground soil conditions play a huge role in the resistance. At the heart of the matter before everyone gets lost in the back and forth is this. - A properly single point, low resistance, short ground path is required. - The use of a layered approach will offer more protection and fail over. - No house can sustain a direct strike from God and not catch fire. - The only thing that will make you whole is good comprehensive home insurance. - There are tried and true methods to bolster your chances of surviving a electrical surge event as detailed above. - No Teken does not get paid for sharing this information and isn't paid by APC, Leviton, Eaton, Tripp Lite, Syscom, etc

As I explained several times which is also bolstered in the link by Westom. It affirms what everyone knows and generaly speaking is already done. Proper grounding includes many factors which I have expressed above. - They are short and direct path to Earth ground. - Low resistance: Which is impacted by the type of soil, wire diameter, length, and the amount of area. Regardless of the above as humans learned more about electricity and (ohms law) they also realized there are many instances that Earth grounding would not be present or available. This is why different applications & techniques have been used which I have illustrated above. When grounding does not address other electrical injection paths other solutions must be used. - Shielding - Isolation - Floating ground - Material displacement Grounding will not protect any electronic device from high voltage induction or EMP. In industry where devices must be protected from such electrical events a combination of the above is used. Opto isolators have long been used in alarm system dialers. This has been used because it absolutlely isolates the device from any injection of voltage from the telco line. With the advent of fiber optic (Think VOIP) communications old POTS copper lines have slowly been replaced. Which for the end user is a plus because it avoids the secondary method of high voltage from entering the building. Besides optical isolation years of proven field trials have shown in every industry from Hospital, Military, etc. Have used 1 to 1 transformers to isolate equipment and users from the line voltage. These industries use isolation transformers for several reasons which are: Consistent voltage, Isolation, and Safety. Its fair to say as stated way above in my air plane example: There is no Earth ground . . . As stated this is where a combination of techniques such a *Isolation* is the primary method. A standard plane is made of aluminum and the shell by default acts like a Faraday cage. Should the plane be struck by lightning it will enter one area and exit the other. Even with this basic premis and solution in place its STILL not enough to protect the plane. Why?!?!? As was mentioned again even a Faraday cage will not protect something electronic against high voltage induction or EMP. This is why *Shielding* is employed whether it be mesh, grid, solid, plates. Even with that it is still not enough and *Floating Grounds* are employed to bring the voltage potential to the same level which is (isolated) from the rest of the hull of the plane. As a last measure material displacement or highly spec'd components with large tolerances are installed. As many of you can relate the military has extremely high standards to meet both induction and EMP. Using scatter cell technology to help reduce weight envision something that is lead lined. But is made in a mesh style which they have tested would offer similar shielding. Obviously where ever solid lining is required its used but this is for illustration purposes to drive the point. As another member indicated all the grounding in the world will not protec a home from a direct strike. Given a normal house is not made like a plane what do people believe will happen if lightning was to strike a standard shingled roof?? Now take the same example what happens if a big boomer zaps over your home but does not strike the house? All of us have seen or experienced where you saw a flash of lightning and the next the lights went out. Why?? Sometimes the lightning does strike something in the POCO which trips many systems. Sometimes it doesn't strike anything but the massive induced voltage acts the same way as if it struck directly. Which has exactly the same outcome which is voltage was induced into the wiring. So, if tens of millions of dollars are spent to ensure the electrical supply chain is well grounded. Why then did the Earth grounding not protect agains't such a problem??? Because grounding is only part of the solution as is using a layered approach which is clearly stated by the IEEE, NIST, etc. I simply have to shake my head in disbelief when I read others reply that a person in a standard home has any method to change his environment which depending upon location has any means to. People are going to randomly pull ground rods out of the ground? Will they measure that its below 25 ohms? Will they have any method to correct the #6 copper is not bent, sharp turns, etc? If Joe Average lives in one of the driest places on the planet and it barely rains and his soil is dry. Is he going to water the ground to insure 25 ohms is present?? This is why human's came up with alternatives and solutions . . . Should we all take a step back and assume Westom is 100% correct that a solid Earth ground be present. How is Gods green Earth will it protect a standard wooden house with shingles should it be struck by lightning? Will the ground stop the fire raging in the roof / attic? As another member stated if a lightning rod was present it could offer a chance because it would be grounded to Earth. This assumes the ball of lightning wants to play ball and go to the lightning rod. I would like to think when I reply with comments they are well thought out. That the way I communicate makes sense that the average person can fullly understand what is being said. Ultimately its to offer insight and guidance as to how best to solve a problem . . . To summarily recite information that doesn't address other factors when presented simply makes no sense. People in industry from police, EMS, Hospital, Military, Banks, Financial, haven't been using all of the above as alternate solutions for fun . . . This is not *art* of protection this is science and years of field proven trials and use that affirm its a system that are tied integral to one another. If diameter of wiring was not important why bother calling out a minimum of #6 copper wire? Why can't it be short, straight, and be as thin as my hair??? Oh . . . Because my thin copper hair can't carry enough what, current! If resistance doesn't matter and impedence does what exactly is going to happen when the Earth ground shows 1 kilo ohm? Will the lightning summarily pass through that wire or will it find the path of least resistance?!?!? Finally, if Earth grounding is the ultimate player in all of this why bother installing a SPD??? Isn't Earth grounding that moves 9999999999999 volts from the Gods supposed to magically go to ground when intercepted by a short, straight, #6 copper ground?? No . . . My home, nor is anyone elses built or designed like a cell tower, or super structure that has nothing but metal and a massive grounding system in place. To compare the two is absurd, to expect a person to have any impact on the material design unless considered before hand is also. Ufer grounding has been tried and tested for a reason. Nothing beats area displacement when coupled to proper bonding of the single point ground, nothing.

Oh the irony is something to marvel . . .

I see its apparent you have no real answer to such a simple question. Keeping in mind I have asked you numerous times to explain and offer a alternate solution about grounding in a existing home! [emoji35] I am going to try to keep this very simple OK. The POCO installs the meter and this meter is grounded to EARTH. This same single point ground is used in the electrical panel. This same single point earth ground is referenced by all wiring in the home. Given the above how is the home owner going to improve upon this? [emoji57] Magic?!? [emoji58] As I clearly indicated way above I have a type 1 SPD which is installed at the meter base. Which as I stated uses the same single point earth ground. Is this not enough ? Now, to add to this layer another type 2 SPD is also installed at the electrical panel. Where do you suppose this device is attached to? You got it, the same single point ground that the outside meter is. Is this not enough? Now, to aid in point of use protection type 3 SPD's in various forms are also installed with various specs based on my needs. They are grounded to what!?!?[emoji58] Oh you guessed it to the same single point earth ground! I don't think I can be any clearer on this topic. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

OK, as Mitchel has asked that this stay relevant and pertinent. How do you suppose the average person will meet your expectation of earth grounding?!?! [emoji19] Lastly, you insist upon stating $1.00 could address this. Please show me how this is done with BOM. I am always eager to learn something new. [emoji4] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I am at a complete loss at your reply?!? [emoji37] You do realize in most modern day homes there is a ground wire, right? Which is attached to the very same electrical panel and depending upon codes / location will also be bonded to the main water pipe. Every UL listed 1449 3rd Edition device uses three prongs. If grounding in a home is so good why then would anyone bother installing anything to start with? It's not like a person will have any method to change it out when it exist already. Saying that is the case is ludicrous! As you insist upon stating protection can be had for a dollar please share with the group how this can be achieved and meet all codes and certification!?!? [emoji53] This endless circle talk is truly astounding. As I quoted above from another person please show me where a current spec'd UL 1449 3rd Edition device has caused a fire? I am at a complete loss where you believe any SPD I have referenced has no ground? [emoji58] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

First you need to get your facts straight. I have never been known or used the alias of Bud. I have over 20 plus years always used Teken or the combination of EVIL Teken in all of my forum posts. Second I do not work or have any affiliation to any vendor that makes any sort of SPD's. None . . . Again, information was provided to all for a balanced approach which I emphasized that a layered system using type 1-4 SPD's. I am uncertain as to why this is so hard to comprehend? [emoji53] No one including I disagree that grounding is important which was clearly states about 9999999 times! Yet critical information which pertains to induced voltage, EMP, solutions are ignored. Those are the facts end of story. [emoji4] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I will keep this simple. Yes the one in your link is fine! [emoji4] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I think this is a good compromise plus it removes the whole wall wart issue: http://www.smarthome.com/outletlinc-dimmer-insteon-2472dwh-remote-control-outlet-dual-band-white.html

Once again I shall reference the IEEE / NIST. Which clearly indicate a point of use type 3 SPD is something that should be used in any layered surge arresting system! [emoji19] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Alright I'll bite please show me the BOM for something that cost a dollar. [emoji21] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

I am unsure if my communication method is less than stellar? [emoji53] Can you simply answer this question: Can a single point ground protect a piece of electronics from a voltage sag? [emoji45] Can grounding offer protection against a sustained voltage rise of 150 VAC? Will proper grounding offer any protection against frequency drift? Lastly, will proper grounding offer any means of isolation to a device / component? If you can't reply with an answer to these basic questions. I fear conversing about this topic will be extremely difficult. [emoji58] Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

Well yes man needs to come up with the idea or in many cases stumble upon it. History has proven that many inventions were merely found by accident and not by design or thought. Regardless of the above my intent in this thread was to offer insight and feed back about what has been field proven. This isn't one persons dream, idea, or wish. Companies like APC, Leviton, Eaton, the goes on have tried very hard to offer a product that does what? Meet a need, and in doing so follow best industry practices outlined by engineers and scientist that have vast amounts of personal experience in the field. Whether it be the CEC, NEC, IEEE, NIST, UL / cUL these organizations have over lapping contributions to the question about surge protection / fault tolerances. What I take issue is that Westom believes the two are mutually exclusive? Really??? What is mutually exclusive is comparing a cellular tower to a standard built home! No building that a normal person resides in is crafted or grounded in the same fashion, none! So because this is the case and material fact what is a person to do? It comes down to compromise and making due with solutions that have been field proven to work in all manner of industry. Westom does not address why certain industries mandate that optical isolation is the only tried and true method to negate voltage rise / voltage sag events. Why??? Because optical isolation is field proven . . . A properly built and designed and spec'd opto isolator can not inject more voltage then the sender receiver is designed and built to operate in. The only recourse for a high voltage condition is to summarily melt the device down. Again this is why as I have stated here and in many other forums which the IEEE, NIST, and many others indicate a *Layered Approach* is the best method in a *system* When I supported the military and saw first hand why it is everything is built with layers and redundancy systems. Its because each layer serves a specific purpose in the over all design plan. That is to first reduce loss / risk . . . Next is to have a measure of fail over to insure if something fails something else in line will be at the ready to pick up the slack. The most dangerous and powerful Abrams tank in the USA arsenal is not summarily protect against EMP / Induction just by grounding! It is protected primarily by shielding, isolation, and high tolerance of components. Grounding is obviously integral to the overall design of the system but it is not the primary method to survive EMP or induced high voltages. Magnetic isolation transformers are used every day in my home and in every part of the world. Why??? In part to insure line voltage is never allowed to exceed the design limits of the users environment. It is also used to physically isolate the user from outside forces. A properly designed and built 1 to 1 isolation transformer will never allow line voltage to exceed 120 VAC, ever. That is the whole purpose of its transformer winding's and the transfer of power via magnetic induction. When companies (name what ever) use the above solutions these are field proven methods used in military, hospital, etc. These industries didn't use these methods because some guy named Teken said it was a good idea! They use them because they are field proven to operate in the most extreme conditions where earth grounding is not able to address specific conditions. I hope the information provided helps the forum members and I encourage anyone to seek out the information themselves and find balance.

Quote: Originally Posted by westom Why earth one 'whole house' protector rated at 50,000 amps? ... A 'whole house' protector even sold in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Provide a link to a protector at Lowes or Home Depot with ratings of 50,000A for less than $50. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Because, for all protectors, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. The IEEE surge guide explains (starting page 30) that plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. Earthing occurs elsewhere. They work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment. This is the major fact that westom just ignores. For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Excellent information on surge protection. And both say plug-in protectors are effective. Then read the sources that agree with westom that plug-in protectors do NOT work. There are none.

Quote: Originally Posted by westom Take a $4 power strip. Make it look expensive. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it maybe as a Belkin for $55. I am using a major brand plug-in protector that cost $25 with ratings of 590J and 30,000A per MOV, 1770J and 90,000A total. Provide a source for a 30,000A/590J MOV for $0.10. (The 30,000A is not possible even on power service wires. It just goes along with the high joule rating.) Quote: Originally Posted by westom They are not selling protection. Otherwise a sales promoter who promotes power strips would have posted those spec numbers. He cannot. The "promoter" lie repeated. If westom just had valid technical arguments... And the specs above have been posted numerous times. Always ignored buy westom. A 10 year old can find specs. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Even that Belkin does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. The surge protector above is from Belkin and has a protected equipment warranty. Quote: Originally Posted by westom A power strip contains a thermal fuse to disconnect MOVs as fast as possible. Westom only buys poorly engineered cheap foreign junk. I buy well engineered devices from competent manufacturers. Quote: Originally Posted by westom Leaves the surge connected to appliances. The IEEE surge guide explains the protected load can be connected across the MOVs, and be disconnected with them. If wired that way the protected load will not be exposed to surges if the MOVs fail and are disconnected. Starting 2005 UL required manufacturers notify buyers if disconnecting the MOVs does NOT disconnect the protected equipment. This was already posted. Westom just ignores anything that does not fit his very limited beliefs about protection. Quote: Originally Posted by westom MOVs must never fail due to gross undersizing. Undersizing is a problem with power strips. Westom thinks all plug-in protectors are undersized. To pass UL1449 a plug-in protector must survive a series of test surges and remain intact. That at least establishes a floor for protection. High rating are readily available, including the protector above. Quote: Originally Posted by westom For example, Norma on 27 Dec 2008 What ever this was it obviously was not a surge. Westom has no horror stories that involve a UL listed protector made since 1998. Quote: Originally Posted by westom A surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. How many joules in the protector circuit? The surge expert from the NIST found the energy absorbed at a plug-in protector was 35 joules max and in 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. That was with surges up to the probable worst case event on power service wires. This was already posted. Westom just ignores anything that does not fit his very limited beliefs about protection. Quote: Originally Posted by westom More responsible companies provide 'whole house' protectors including Intermatic, General Electric, Square D, Siemens, Polyphaser, Leviton, ABB, and Ditek to name only a few. All these "responsible companies" except SquareD and Polyphaser make plug-in protectors and say they are effective. Westom says plug-in protectors don't work. SquareD says for their "best" service panel suppressor "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use."