Apple HomeKit?

[Teken]

Engineering is about trade offs. Apple hasn't brainwashed anyone, they've offered lighter and thinner computers than anyone else. To do that, they needed to use adhesives, non-upgradableable custom parts, etc. Consumers can choose the solution that best meets their budget and needs. It's not like there aren't a shortage of boxy laptops you can buy that have replaceable components. If upgradability is more important to you than portability, that's a totally valid reason to look at other manufacturers. If you treat your computer like a gear head treats a muscle car, Apple won't be your best option.

 

Re connectors, Apple has long pushed the boundaries of what is capable. Back when FireWire debuted, it could offer video transfer without dropped frames, because FW had its own controller chip, unlike USB, which was dependent on the CPU, which could get bogged down. It filled a need at that time.

 

Same with Thunderbolt. It allows Apple to do things other standards cannot, and it's been commercially available for a couple years already. If/when it is subsumed by other protocols, Apple will ditch it. In the meantime, they get to push the envelope.

 

Apple stuff isn't for everyone. Lots of people are better served by other hardware and OSes, by more predictable product road maps, more stable hardware and software features, and plenty of other reasons. I'm certainty not trying to suggest either that Apple is perfect, or even better than others. And while choice of computer isn't in any way indicative of intelligence, not everyone who buys an Apple product does so because of Apple's magical brainwashing powers, or because everyone else is doing it.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

 

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Agreed, engineering is about trade offs. It doesn't mean people should have to accept a poorly engineered devices either.

 

The latest Mac mini is the perfect example of simply sticking it to the consumer. It hasn't gotten any smaller, thinner. Yet these [censored] decided to make both the memory and HDD none replaceable?

 

Why?

 

Simple greed, plain and simple. Sony has also tried many times and failed to deploy custom and proprietary plugs and data hardware.

 

It had nothing to do with being better, faster, or easier.

 

Again, simple greed and locking down the consumer. It's only because the dumb let them by using their wallets.

 

This was also seen by ITunes where they purposely coded their software to kill off any competitors from linking purchased music via other 3rd party software means.

 

Never mind the ongoing class action law suite for the 2011 Mac Book Pro's. For a company who pretends to be so customer focused they sure are happy to leave thousands of loyal customers up Sh@t creek without fixing a known video issue.

 

All of these companies simply want to lock you in and suck you dry. Apple is just like all the rest the only difference they mask it better than the rest.

 

The next Mac book air will purportedly have only one I/O.

 

That is based on the USB 3.1C standard.

 

Really?

 

Nothing else, because they are pushing the envelope of technology? No, they are simply pushing stupid to a new level which the iSheep are eager to drink and eat.

 

 

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[icerabbit]

I share quite some of the sentiments against Apple's dropping ports, upgradability, repairability ... for anorexic devices, bloated itunes, failing sync, not having a storage slot on mobile devices and then only give neutered import only from the camera kit. Can't live read from a card :`( .

 

... The '14 mini is a stop gap probably recycling the old case design before they shrink it further.

 

As I said earlier, I'd love to be able to give a selection of insteon related voice commands to the phone/ipad ... and really wish it could be as simple as voice support via the app.

 

Then from your car tell your phone to turn the driveway lights on, open the garage door, ... that'd be a little happy part of a once predicted future (like flying cars and housekeeping robots ... LOL) , to me.

[Brian H]

There is a short article in the Spring 2015 NO.101 MacLife Magazine on the HomeKit.

It mentioned the Insteon HUB and a few other devices.

[Teken]

There is a short article in the Spring 2015 NO.101 MacLife Magazine on the HomeKit.

It mentioned the Insteon HUB and a few other devices.

Link? ️

 

 

Ideals are peaceful - History is violent

[Brian H]

It was in the magazine MacLife.

I will see if it maybe on their web site.

[unplugme71]

Now that Insteon Hub w/ HomeKit is available for purchase, I would be very excited to see UD offer the same HomeKit support.

 

I would really like to use Siri to control my home as an addition to the programs I already have created. I'd be willing to pay for an add-on or replace my product entirely if such feature existed.

 

By offering HomeKit, you basically take away a lot of your prosumer competition too, ie CastleOS, etc..

 

I don't see Apple going away, and HomeKit will eventually become the standard all major players will support.

[Teken]

Well if they use this it will: https://www.elgato.com/en/eve/eve-core

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello unplugme71,

 

Unfortunately we will go bankrupt having to produce a hardware that meets their requirements. Sorry.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[brians]

I just about ordered the Insteon Hub since I was interested in Homekit.

Then I realized that my ISY994i is working perfect. There are some things I am not sure how they would work (like setting LED levels on Insteon switches and correctly syncing scenes) so I will wait a bit for some reviews. I think I am just looking for something new and realize I don't want to spend days/weeks messing around with my home setup at this time.

 

But one day soon I see myself dropping the $ (unless I hear that it becomes a total flop). At $150 it is not much of a monetary risk rather than a potential time waster in the worst case. 

 

I would like to hear from others on their thoughts how we could go about having best of both worlds. Could the Insteon Hub supporting HomeKit potentially work good with ISY994i or would it really mess things up?

[user181]

Could the Insteon Hub supporting HomeKit potentially work good with ISY994i or would it really mess things up?

I really don't the the Insteon Hub and the ISY994i can both coexist in the same Insteon network. They are both controllers, and it is my understanding that you can only have one controller for the network, otherwise they'd be "fighting" each other.

[LeeG]

user181

 

The Hub and ISY can function on the same power network but they cannot control the same devices.  The issues with both Hub and ISY having link records to the same set of devices is not practical. 

[lilyoyo1]

From what I've read, the way homekit works would probably cause more problems than it solves should you use it in conjunction with the ISY. Since everything goes through apples servers, there wouldn't be anyway to update homekit should the ISY do something. 

[unplugme71]

Hello unplugme71,

 

Unfortunately we will go bankrupt having to produce a hardware that meets their requirements. Sorry.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

How so? There are so many players out there offering HomeKit compatibility for half the price of ISY. Even Insteon themselves has it for $149. 

[G W]

How so? There are so many players out there offering HomeKit compatibility for half the price of ISY. Even Insteon themselves has it for $149.

HomeKit will never do what the ISY will do.

[larryllix]

HomeKit will never do what the ISY will do.

Yeah but iWorld has a Watch that you can talk to! That turns a lot of folks heads and sounds real cool. It should put another 5-10% of the population onboard with HA anyway. Actually useful? Who cares? Will it impress las chicas?

 

Gadgets run the computer world as business were left drooling over colour graphics, CD drives and sound cards added into PCs driven by the students playing games. You know?  The deprived  ones with all the money from their broke parents?

 

.... Dick Tracy

[paulbates]

How so? There are so many players out there offering HomeKit compatibility for half the price of ISY. Even Insteon themselves has it for $149.

There is a significant difference between UDI and Smartlabs; both in mission and in resources. And those differences are felt in the cost of entry of homekit. Homekit is a significant liability and risk to UDI, in both technical requirements and contractual restrictions

 

Those that are highly motivated to get homekit available for UDI should turn their attention to where the problem really is... with apple. Ask apple for a homekit integration kit with fewer restrictions and lower barriers of entry, so players like UDI can participate.

 

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[Scottmichaelj]

At this point as a third party company it maybe better for UD integrated with other HA devices like they did with ZWave. For example adding the internet of things (IoT) and maybe Googles HA protocol Basille instead of worrying about Apples HomeKit.

[lilyoyo1]

You have to also realize smartlabs has its other devices that it can make money off of. UDI only has the Isy. While smartlabs may be able to afford to sell the hub cheaper, it has money from other ventures that it can pull from.

[builderb]

HomeKit will never do what the ISY will do.

My rambling $0.02 on the matter...

 

I could be wrong about this, but I see HomeKit more as an attempt by Apple to unite the fragmented communications protocols that make up the HA world, rather than as a user interface for your HA system. Showing off using Siri to control lights is just a marketing-friendly way of saying that an if/then statement running on iOS will automatically work with Hue, or WeMo, or whoever. If those hooks are easy for developers to access, the building blocks of a sophisticated HA system seem to be present.

 

Taking that idea a little further, if HomeKit functions as a developer-friendly way to unite lots of different protocols, and Apple opens an App Store for the AppleTV, I could foresee a future where an app similar in functionality to the ISY could be sold on that App Store, and run on that AppleTV.

 

Now, I don't think Apple will ever offer software that competes with the freedom UDI gives us with their software, but I could see someone else competing in that space. The guys who develop Indigo, for example, would be crazy not to port their app to such an AppleTV ecosystem.

 

And Apple will be happy if it's yet another reason people buy more AppleTVs.

 

 

 

 

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[fitzpatri8]

Bingo.

[paulbates]

Those are all good assumptions, agreed. I was thinking the same thing about Indigo. No reason that capability could not run on an appletv. Since the new Insteon Hubs are network based, that would allow the apple tv to control insteon via the home LAN to the HUB, for example. There are HA apps today that do this. (with a little more latency coming from the Hub vs a 2413 PLM). It does raise question on where indigo (or other existing software) stops and homekit starts, or vice versa. That's still blurry to me.

 

I think we're a ways from those thoughts vs reality for a remote competitor to the ISY. Looking at iphone/ios, there has historically been almost a 2 year lag on supporting features already at work in the market... Full BT support, multi-tasking, larger screen formats, NFC, etc. Apple's approach is top down, simplify first and deepen second. (Not a criticism against apple, just a factor to take into consideration for how this will play out)

 

Using that thinking, I believe we're more than a year and a half, maybe 2, away from seeing something that could be evaluated as being a competitor to the ISY running under homekit directly. Certainly would like to hear other views on that.

 

ISY will continue to move forward in that time.  V5, with additional features and capabilities, is almost out for me as a user. I'm going to keep following ISYs lead, there is really nothing to stop and look at right now.

[lilyoyo1]

I don't see Apple doing that at all. Apple wants to much control when it comes to products tapping into it's ecosystem. When it comes to Apple doing it, I don't see them letting the reigns go to allow people the functionality that the ISY has. I like UDI's path and I am excited to see what the ISY can do in the upcoming years. 

[JeremyLaurenson]

I think there are two "markets" here.

 

1... The existing HA folks using ISY etc. for relatively complex setups. (I use ISY+ElkM1G+Nest)

2... New users who are ready to jump in, but need simple solutions. (Not techie folks)

 

While HomeKit may not satisfy the initial folks in camp 1, I can tell you that the apps and simplicity provided will certainly hit a bigger addressable market. Lets be honest, Insteon/ZWave etc are not "average guy" ready.

 

If all a customer needs is to control lights, scenes and a thermostat with your iOS device then an Insteon HomeKit box works extremely well, as an example.

 

Universal devices can do one of 2 things:

1... Nothing. Miss out on the wave Apple/Microsoft and others are going to create. Over time be displaced as others become

      more sophisticated.

2... Add HomeKit now in a new ISY994Hi box at $100 more and be 'the' advanced platform.

 

*I* think from a revenue and market position perspective, saying apple is proprietary and moving on completely misses the avalanche of potential customers. Smarthome's hub may well satisfy the basic users now, but make no mistake that as they make money and reinvest they may well overtake the ISY.

 

I for one have one on order and as soon as I can get my ELK arming/disarming the slippery slope will be greased... 

Then again, UDI has made their money from me... unless they coe up with a new ISY for me to buy.

[paulbates]

I think there are two "markets" here.

 

1... The existing HA folks using ISY etc. for relatively complex setups. (I use ISY+ElkM1G+Nest)

2... New users who are ready to jump in, but need simple solutions. (Not techie folks)

 

While HomeKit may not satisfy the initial folks in camp 1, I can tell you that the apps and simplicity provided will certainly hit a bigger addressable market. Lets be honest, Insteon/ZWave etc are not "average guy" ready.

 

If all a customer needs is to control lights, scenes and a thermostat with your iOS device then an Insteon HomeKit box works extremely well, as an example.

 

Agreed on the two markets and sets of needs. However It's not clear what UDI will be missing out on by not catering to Market #2 for Homekit. Market #1 is growing, dramatically, outside of homekit. 

 

I don't understand the logic of pushing UDI into Market #2, specifically homekit: Let's imagine a hypothetical Homekit enabled ISY available for sale right now. That still comes with the need to understand the insteon or zwave technical fundamentals behind it to be able to use it, as you point out. 

 

The sales pitch to market market #2, who want simple control, for buying a (hypothetical) Homekit enabled ISY is...? These market #2 customers will line up to buy a more complex integration solution like the ISY and UDI will make tons of money from a huge investment in Homekit because..?

 

I don't see that market. That sounds like a bad business case to me. Instead, I think there is an existing body of ISY users here that would like Homekit. I understand that, but its a very different argument than claiming a revenue stream form lots of new buyers. That's one of a number of opportunities for UDI to consider for its user base.

 

 

Universal devices can do one of 2 things:

1... Nothing. Miss out on the wave Apple/Microsoft and others are going to create. Over time be displaced as others become

      more sophisticated.

2... Add HomeKit now in a new ISY994Hi box at $100 more and be 'the' advanced platform.

 

*I* think from a revenue and market position perspective, saying apple is proprietary and moving on completely misses the avalanche of potential customers. Smarthome's hub may well satisfy the basic users now, but make no mistake that as they make money and reinvest they may well overtake the ISY.

 

I for one have one on order and as soon as I can get my ELK arming/disarming the slippery slope will be greased... 

Then again, UDI has made their money from me... unless they coe up with a new ISY for me to buy.

 

Microsoft got dropped in here, I'm not sure why. I've not seen a post here about UDI saying they'll have problems supporting alljoyn or other open HA integration platforms. In fact that's what node servers in V5 is all about. Microsoft has committed to alljoyn as part of W10, and SDKs from alljoyn go back to XP exist today. Also, open source SDKs for Android and ios. This is Market #1.

 

As a full opensource solution, I see no barriers to alljoyn and Microsoft being developed for V5 of ISY firmware. There's the possibility that UDI could provide that integration, or there are developers here who have proven their abilities in this area that can provide V5 node servers.

 

Now lets talk about the specter raised about Homekit marketshare opportunity as expressed by size, vs other platforms.  Windows is the biggest desktop market share, by far. Android is the biggest phone OS market share in the us (table 3), and by far in the world. UDI sells internationally. Android continues to expand in marketshare vs ios, year over year.

 

I believe there is an expanding market of technical hobbyists and software engineers (Market #1) who will want explore the advantages, through their skills, of integration that the ISY brings. Alljoyn is likely to be one of the tools in their toolkit. If not alljoyn, one of the others similar to it. To me, that's a lot more market than homekit. And from what I understand, is a 'sweet spot' for UDI, its what they do best.

 

There are 2 markets, and they can/should be addressed separately.

[builderb]

Using that thinking, I believe we're more than a year and a half, maybe 2, away from seeing something that could be evaluated as being a competitor to the ISY running under homekit directly. Certainly would like to hear other views on that.

That sounds about right. Frankly, I think the revised ATV with App Store that would support this scheme is being held hostage to negotiations with content providers for TV. Home automation is certainly not Apple's priority here, any new ATV release is surely tied to content distribution instead. So assuming Eddie Cue can work his magic with the studios (who aren't about to make the same mistake the music labels did in allowing Apple to get their foot in the door on the cheap) sometime this year, and further assuming that the rumors about an ATV App Store are correct, it's likely another year after that before fully functional HA apps make their way to market.

 

The big tell, in my mind, is the "Kit" part. HomeKit, HealthKit, WatchKit, these are not things for consumers. They are not apps. They are frameworks for developers to use in creating apps. If Apple didn't want people to have access to those things, they wouldn't provide such frameworks, which leads me to believe Apple expects development of HA apps.

 

 

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