Is RadioRA3 the Ultimate Replacement For Insteon?

[upstatemike]

This looks like a really attractive alternative to Insteon and addresses most of the things I didn't like about RadioRA2. https://radiora3.lutron.com/

 

[MrBill]

I saw RA3 on Monday, it would certainly be a top contender if starting over today.  The downside is Lutron tends to be pricey, don't be shocked if the equivalent system would cost double or triple.

[asbril]

24 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I saw RA3 on Monday, it would certainly be a top contender if starting over today.  The downside is Lutron tends to be pricey, don't be shocked if the equivalent system would cost double or triple.

Looks nice online. How well does the Lutron-Caseta nodeserver work, and is that nodeserver working with RA 3 ?

[MrBill]

13 minutes ago, asbril said:

Looks nice online. How well does the Lutron-Caseta nodeserver work, and is that nodeserver working with RA 3 ?

I'm certain it will need to be updated to cover all of RA3's API, the nice thing about lutron tho is that they document the API.

[lilyoyo1]

I like their sunnata switches so I'm happy to see them keeping that same look. It can also bring the price down since a person can use the Sunnata line in places they don't want to automate allowing for uniformity throughout the house

[upstatemike]

5 hours ago, MrBill said:

I saw RA3 on Monday, it would certainly be a top contender if starting over today.  The downside is Lutron tends to be pricey, don't be shocked if the equivalent system would cost double or triple.

But likely still cheaper than C4. Besides the migration could be gradual. 

[upstatemike]

It is interesting that the new RA3 processor supports both 2.4Gig  RA3 stuff and 431-437 Mhz for RA2 stuff. (100 devices on each radio). I wonder why Lutron moved away from the 400MHz bands for RA3 since it  worked so well for previous versions of RadioRA and 2.4G is such an interference mine field?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

It is interesting that the new RA3 processor supports both 2.4Gig  RA3 stuff and 431-437 Mhz for RA2 stuff. (100 devices on each radio). I wonder why Lutron moved away from the 400MHz bands for RA3 since it  worked so well for previous versions of RadioRA and 2.4G is such an interference mine field?

My first suspicion would be to achieve much greater range

[TrojanHorse]

My first suspicion would be to achieve much greater range

Not to argue here (I’d rather choose a different topic ) but I thought in general lower frequencies had longer range?


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[dbuss]

8 hours ago, TrojanHorse said:

Not to argue here (I’d rather choose a different topic ) but I thought in general lower frequencies had longer range?

Generally speaking, lower frequencies do have longer range.

[larryllix]

14 minutes ago, dbuss said:

Generally speaking, lower frequencies do have longer range.

Not a radio expert here but I think there is a balance / trade off. While lower frequencies may have a longer range, the longer bandwidth may stop waves from penetrating smaller cavities and not penetrate structures inside buildings as well.

Very ironic to see dual bands evolve like WiFi...well four bands now. I guess the crowd always wants more.

[Bumbershoot]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

While lower frequencies may have a longer range, the longer bandwidth may stop waves from penetrating smaller cavities and not penetrate structures inside buildings as well.

Lower frequencies have longer range, and also have better building penetration, which is why fire departments often use low frequencies for voice communications ( in Oregon the frequencies are in the 154 MHz range ).  These are not good frequencies for data, however. 

[upstatemike]

Lower frequencies have longer range and better penetration but the trade off is usually antenna length. That said the original Clear Connect as well as standards like LoRa do very well at lower frequencies so I guess the antenna design issue can be managed somehow.

[Techman]

On 11/3/2021 at 7:30 AM, MrBill said:

I saw RA3 on Monday, it would certainly be a top contender if starting over today.  The downside is Lutron tends to be pricey, don't be shocked if the equivalent system would cost double or triple.

and their programming software is only sold to professional installers, not end user friendly

[carealtor]

1 hour ago, Techman said:

and their programming software is only sold to professional installers, not end user friendly

That's the part I'm curious about.

[MrBill]

12 minutes ago, carealtor said:

That's the part I'm curious about.

The way it's been explained to me, is that anyone can take the online course and become certified, however your first order has a high minimum and is not discounted.

[simplextech]

5 hours ago, Techman said:

and their programming software is only sold to professional installers, not end user friendly

Anyone can enroll for the free online training.  After completing the exam you can download the software. 

3 hours ago, MrBill said:

however your first order has a high minimum and is not discounted.

This is not completely accurate.  If you purchase the "kit" then it's kinda expensive as this is made for dealers who will be learning and deploying various types of equipment and may not include things you will actually use.  However you can purchase the main repeater by itself as well as any of the components.  Now whoever you are purchasing from may impose some quantity limit or MOQ and that's on them.  I can purchase and resell at any quantity.

Now historically the Radio RA 2 and above equipment has been dealer only.  Which really meant that anyone with a commercial account with a lighting supplier or ADI or any distributor that sells Lutron equipment can purchase the devices.  The trick was you need the software to do anything with it which means you need the training. 

Currently the Ra 3 main repeaters are hitting distro and will be available soon.  Some orders are being delivered so where you order from will depend on arrival times.  I've checked with my supplier and other distro's and the pricing is really not bad for my prices and I don't get a bulk discount.

Now the ever present question about integration.  The new Ra 3 main repeater uses LEAP.  What does that mean?  Well it's the same LIP (Lutron Integration Protocol) inside but it's now using SSH instead of telnet for the connection and importantly the authentication and encryption of the communication.  Does the old telnet connection still work?  I've been told no but I still want to double check that as it's an important point.  I do know for sure that when they updated the HomeWorks QS processor to the new QSX processor that new processor was LEAP ONLY.  No telnet.  I have to believe this is the same for Ra 3.

LEAP is the path forward for Lutron integration and has been present in the consumer (big box store) version of the Caseta bridge since the release and is now the integration method for the HomeWorks QSX processor.  Yes there are ways to "hack" the authentication for the Caseta bridge but whether that same method will work with the Ra 3 and QSX, I don't know and I won't investigate as I'm not into developing "hack" versions of integrations. 

I've been in contact with Lutron to get authentication keys issued for development against the platform.  I know that the big boys have been granted the auth keys for development (C4, RTI, Crestron, Savant) and their development was slow even with direct vendor help.  I also know that Lutron is going to be very hesitant about giving "just anyone" the ability to authenticate into their systems with the risk of those keys being "loose in the wild".  Because of this I think it will be a long time (if ever) before any of the DIY systems have any integration especially those DIY systems that distribute their integrations, plugins, nodeservers that are developed in non-compiled languages and distributed in source code.

One reason I migrated my nodeserver development from Python to Node.js (Javascript) was to have the ability to "compile" or rather highly obfuscate the source code into machine code making it nearly impossible for a person to "easily" read, copy, use the machine code for anything useful.  This might satisfy vendors like Lutron but I don't know yet. 

Now is this possible with Python?  Yes.  BUT.... I never did this with Python or even with JavaScript because the underlying OS and development environment of Polisy is under too heavy of development itself and is constantly changing the versions of the runtime environments which makes it very difficult to compile against a specific version that will likely be gone on the next update.  Currently there is no structure or order to the development and release process.  I would rant about SDLC but I'm not sure that would mean anything to anyone else.

I think if the Lutron integration was "closed" and part of the system and not available via source code or scripting language then Lutron would provide the auth keys to UD.

Now like many I'm still getting up to speed with all of the new goodies from Ra 3.  Even as an authorized dealer I didn't get any information ahead of time.  I've been poking my contacts for information and it's slowly trickling in.  I'm sure they are over whelmed with questions.  I plan on taking the Ra 3 training soon as I will need to in order to get access to the designer software.  The designer software for HomeWorks and Ra 3 are now the same.  In the past they were different software.

/rant over but I thought I'd drop some info as there's a lot of noise about Ra 3 with some good info and some not so good.

[Michel Kohanim]

4 hours ago, simplextech said:

the underlying OS and development environment of Polisy is under too heavy of development itself and is constantly changing the versions of the runtime environments which makes it very difficult to compile against a specific version that will likely be gone on the next update.

Please elaborate what exactly do you mean by this very broad, generic, and pretty much untrue statement. PG3 is under development but it has absolutely nothing to do with the OS and runtime. Perhaps you're confusing it with RPi? 

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

13 hours ago, MrBill said:

The way it's been explained to me, is that anyone can take the online course and become certified, however your first order has a high minimum and is not discounted.

There is a free course but if you want the full capability, you'll need the paid course which is only around 600 bucks (may be more now). 

While that may sound expensive, it's much cheaper than having to pay someone to install and manage the system for you. Compared to everyone else, they really do make it assessable to anyone while protecting their dealers at the same time

[lilyoyo1]

On 11/3/2021 at 10:55 AM, asbril said:

Looks nice online. How well does the Lutron-Caseta nodeserver work, and is that nodeserver working with RA 3 ?

You can sorta see the switches in person at your local home depot. If you're ever out there, check out the Sunnata dimmer. Its Ra3 without the smarts.

[asbril]

Thanks @lilyoyo1  I am reluctant to mix my switches, but will see of there are other devices to try out.

[lilyoyo1]

54 minutes ago, asbril said:

Thanks @lilyoyo1  I am reluctant to mix my switches, but will see of there are other devices to try out.

The sunnata line doesnt have any smarts so it cant be mixed. Who knows. Maybe you'll swap to Ra3. ?

[asbril]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

The sunnata line doesnt have any smarts so it cant be mixed. Who knows. Maybe you'll swap to Ra3. ?

When I win the Lotto.

[asbril]

Just now, asbril said:

The sunnata line doesnt have any smarts

Neither do I

[silverton38]

I think Universal Devices should make the ISY telnet compatible to the Lutron stuff (like Hubitat). It could be a reliable best friend to the platform and become to Lutron what it is to Insteon.