Bumbershoot Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 10:00 am PST. Link to register is here: https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_E2RuMHrDTn2pXO9YGNmsqg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvisimprsntr Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Did you mean 1/6/2023? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumbershoot Posted January 4, 2023 Author Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 hour ago, elvisimprsntr said: Did you mean 1/6/2023? Yep, thanks. Edited. I'll screw up a few checks before I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvisimprsntr Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 Sadly, no concrete plans to support Matter. Insteon will likely be one of those technologies that will be left behind as the rest of the world embraces technologies like Matter and Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matapan Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 Out of curiosity, what exactly would support for Matter and Thread look like as it relates to Insteon? I'm having a hard time visualizing what this would look like. Would it be support for Matter and Thread in an Insteon Hub? Would existing devices remain the same? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 8 minutes ago, matapan said: Out of curiosity, what exactly would support for Matter and Thread look like as it relates to Insteon? I'm having a hard time visualizing what this would look like. Would it be support for Matter and Thread in an Insteon Hub? Would existing devices remain the same? Insteon stated previously that their new hub would support Matter. I would assume the hub itself would connect insteon devices to other matter devices/routers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstatemike Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 38 minutes ago, elvisimprsntr said: Insteon will likely be one of those technologies that will be left behind as the rest of the world embraces technologies like Matter and Thread. Really? The whole rest of the world? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 8 minutes ago, upstatemike said: Really? The whole rest of the world? Could be since there really isn't much of an insteon presence outside of N. America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matapan Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 48 minutes ago, elvisimprsntr said: Sadly, no concrete plans to support Matter. Insteon will likely be one of those technologies that will be left behind as the rest of the world embraces technologies like Matter and Thread. I don't see how having no concrete plans to support Matter right now can be construed as being left behind. If the support for Matter/Thread is in the form of an updated hub product, I personally think that Insteon Technologies is doing absolutely the right thing now just getting product back in stock, providing support for mobile apps, and just getting back on their feet again. Matter is vaporware and there are no real products on the market currently that would support any demand or focus of precious resources to something like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBill Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 1 hour ago, elvisimprsntr said: Sadly, no concrete plans to support Matter. Insteon will likely be one of those technologies that will be left behind as the rest of the world embraces technologies like Matter and Thread. as stated rather well in 2 posts by @matapan it will come with time. Just because Insteon isn't rushing to be among the first, that doesn't mean they will finish last either. I'd rather see something solid that something they rushed out the the door. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstatemike Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 (edited) Here is an example of a designer quality Matter switch from Nanoleaf. I'm sure there will be no pushback from your significant other when you explain you plan to install these stylish things throughout the house. https://nanoleaf.me/en-US/products/nanoleaf-sense-plus-controls/ Edited January 6, 2023 by upstatemike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose66 Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 Seems like adding Matter support to the Insteon hub will be a no-brainer programming/technology-wise if they decide to do it. The question is will they make the smart decision to do it. Like so many HA companies, Insteon needs to decide if they want to be a hardware company or a software company and then stay in their lane. When these companies decide they want to own both sides, they just wind up being crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xlurkr Posted January 6, 2023 Share Posted January 6, 2023 52 minutes ago, upstatemike said: a designer quality Matter switch from Nanoleaf Gives new meaning to the term "wall wart". -Tom 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matapan Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 11 hours ago, Goose66 said: Seems like adding Matter support to the Insteon hub will be a no-brainer programming/technology-wise if they decide to do it. The question is will they make the smart decision to do it. Like so many HA companies, Insteon needs to decide if they want to be a hardware company or a software company and then stay in their lane. When these companies decide they want to own both sides, they just wind up being crap. The pros of a walled garden approach is that by limiting the selection of devices to a single vendor, you can contain the support required to help users and keep the costs reasonable. Open the door to the world outside that walled garden is risky for the walled garden vendor if they can't confirm that support for something outside the garden won't be a support nightmare and a major drain on resources. You can't be assured that some inconsistency a user experiences outside the walled garden won't be characterized as a poor reflection on the vendor's product and support. Matter is an alpha level product now and there are no real products on the marketplace that can qualify an answer to the support question. It makes sense for a vendor with limited resources to wait it out and let the bugs shake out before providing any support. Look at Z-Wave and how they kludged scene support in the third iteration of their standard. Three major revisions and it's still a kludge, by design!!! In this particular case, I think Insteon is far superior in the way it supports scenes. Someone who knows a lot about Matter can probably speak to some of this. The reality in the home automation landscape is that the people that get into it like to tinker and desire to mix and match. Perhaps support for this can be managed in a reasonable manner if manufacturers design protocols detailed enough to avoid technical support headaches. But the desire to bring to market inexpensive products in the hopes that you will get a good sales rate on those products can lead to a lot of variation in product quality. If one mixes some of those substandard products in their HA setup, it becomes crap from the average user's perspective. The oft used mantra that "it just works" is violated, much to the consternation of non-technical folks and to the glee of some technical users who I think believe having a working setup has to be earned. Have the time and energy to experiment. If something doesn't work, drop it and find the next product that might work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matapan Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 It seems like the response for existing companies with home automation products will be to produce a bridge that allows existing products made by a vendor to operate with Matter/Thread products. That is what I think most vendors will term their support for Matter/Thread. Another avenue a vendor can take is to just produce native Matter/Thread compliant products. Just go "all in". But this risks becoming a vendor known for making a commodity product indistinguishable from the next Matter/Thread vendor's product. The home automation vendor landscape has companies that make very unique products - Insteon with its dual band technology and formerly large product range. Yolink with the lo-ra technology advertising reliable device to device communication using low power and long range. I'm curious how vendors will try merging their unique technologies into products that support Matter/Thread beyond just employing a bridge type product. Maybe the answer is they won't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upstatemike Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 (edited) Customer: I want a completely interoperable standard so I am free to mix and match brands with no concerns about impacting features, even advanced ones. I want a wide variety of vendors, styles, and device types. I want vendors to distinguish themselves with things like quality, look and feel (style), price, and availability. I don't want any learning curve or to worry that I have invested in the wrong thing. I think Home Automation should be a commodity. Equipment Manufacturer: I want to make a product that hits all the buzzwords in the most cost effective way possible. I want to have the ability to lock users into my ecosystem either by having a walled garden or by limiting access to unique advanced features when used in a mixed environment. I want to target low hanging fruit like entry level users who will buy a few items in big box stores and then never bother with it again. I do not want to make any niche, low volume products. I think Home Automation should be a cash cow. Protocol Developer: I want my protocol to be accepted as an industry standard to maximize licensing and/or market share. I want companies to see value in adopting my standard so I want it to appear that there is consumer demand for it. I want companies to adopt my standard so I will compromise on enforcing standards so they can "distinguish themselves in the marketplace" without resorting to style, quality, or commodity pricing. I think Home Automation should be whatever I define it to be as long as I can dominate and control this technology segment. So how do all these different priorities get reconciled? Edited January 8, 2023 by upstatemike 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilyoyo1 Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 56 minutes ago, upstatemike said: Customer: I want a completely interoperable standard so I am free to mix and match brands with no concerns about impacting features, even advanced ones. I want a wide variety of vendors, styles, and device types. I want vendors to distinguish themselves with things like quality, look and feel (style), price, and avaiability. I don't want any learning curve or to worry that I have invested in the wrong thing. I think Home Automation should be a commodity. Equipment Manufacturer: I want to make a product that hits all the buzzwords in the most cost effective way possible. I want to have the ability to lock users into my ecosystem either by having a walled garden or by limiting access to unique advanced features when used in a mixed environment. I want to target low hanging fruit like entry level users who will buy a few items in big box stores and then never bother with it again. I do not want to make any niche, low volume products. I think Home Automation should be a cash cow. Protocol Developer: I want my protocol to be accepted as an industry standard to maximize licensing and/or market share. I want companies to see value in adopting my standard so I want it to appear that there is consumer demand for it. I want companies to adopt my standard so I will compromise on enforcing standards so they can "distinguish themselves in the marketplace" without resorting to style, quality, or commodity pricing. I think Home Automation should be whatever I define it to be as long as I can dominate and control this technology segment. So how do all these different priorities get reconciled? They don't. Mfg. with deep pockets will always have extra features added to their devices to make them appealing to more users. Everyone else will regurgitate the same devices that do nothing special while piggy backing off the work of others. You see this now with ZigBee and zwave- both of which have been around long enough to know how things will play out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 I want my single lightswitch to be able to send the universal codes over the universal protocol to turn on my sound system and tune it to the station I am thinking of today. If music isn't playing right now on that station, I want it to load the vinyl record album of the particular band I was thinking of, drop it on my turntable and play the selected track the lightswitch requested. I mean everything should be compatible using Matter, right? Is everybody dreaming? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xlurkr Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 @upstatemike: I don't have any answers, but I sure love the way you state the questions. -Tom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elvisimprsntr Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 It doesn’t Matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBill Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 8 minutes ago, elvisimprsntr said: It doesn’t Matter I wonder how many times that graphic has appeared in this forum... it's on at least 15 too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryllix Posted January 7, 2023 Share Posted January 7, 2023 I wonder how many times that graphic has appeared in this forum... it's on at least 15 too...What's the current count now?Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose66 Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, matapan said: The pros of a walled garden approach is that by limiting the selection of devices to a single vendor, you can contain the support required to help users and keep the costs reasonable. Open the door to the world outside that walled garden is risky for the walled garden vendor if they can't confirm that support for something outside the garden won't be a support nightmare and a major drain on resources. You can't be assured that some inconsistency a user experiences outside the walled garden won't be characterized as a poor reflection on the vendor's product and support. Matter is an alpha level product now and there are no real products on the marketplace that can qualify an answer to the support question. It makes sense for a vendor with limited resources to wait it out and let the bugs shake out before providing any support. Look at Z-Wave and how they kludged scene support in the third iteration of their standard. Three major revisions and it's still a kludge, by design!!! In this particular case, I think Insteon is far superior in the way it supports scenes. Someone who knows a lot about Matter can probably speak to some of this. The reality in the home automation landscape is that the people that get into it like to tinker and desire to mix and match. Perhaps support for this can be managed in a reasonable manner if manufacturers design protocols detailed enough to avoid technical support headaches. But the desire to bring to market inexpensive products in the hopes that you will get a good sales rate on those products can lead to a lot of variation in product quality. If one mixes some of those substandard products in their HA setup, it becomes crap from the average user's perspective. The oft used mantra that "it just works" is violated, much to the consternation of non-technical folks and to the glee of some technical users who I think believe having a working setup has to be earned. Have the time and energy to experiment. If something doesn't work, drop it and find the next product that might work. I understand why they do it (it’s been discussed so many times on this forum over the last 12 years I believe everyone understands why they do it). The point still stands that it just winds up being another crappy closed HA ecosystem that most people can’t use or afford (whether it “just works” or not). Only interoperability will bring HA to the masses, and if hardware manufacturers would make a quality and affordable product that fully supports open protocols like Thread and Matter, all the software vendors would support it and they could carve out a stable market position. I am thinking like Cree, Leviton, LG, EPISTAR, etc. Edited January 8, 2023 by Goose66 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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