Eisy Zwave strength and Smoke detectors

[ctviggen1]

I have an ISY994i on a system that is mainly Insteon with a few Zwave devices (door locks, ceiling fans) thrown in.  The Zwave network has always been sketchy, particularly for the door locks. I've had to add multiple plug-in light controllers/repeaters for Zwave, and even then the front door is sketchy (the ISY994i is on the opposite side of the house and a floor lower, and it's hard to bridge the gap between the two with Zwave devices).

Does the Eisy have a stronger Zwave signal?

We have wired smoke detectors with battery backup. My wife accidentally destroyed one while taking it down when it started beeping about low battery in the middle of the night. I've been thinking about getting Zwave smoke detectors, like these:

https://www.costco.com/first-alert-z-wave-smoke-and-carbon-monoxide-alarm%2C-3-pack.product.100487243.html

If I replaced all my smoke detectors with these, I would add at least 8 more Zwave devices in the home. 

Would these help strengthen my Zwave system?

Do you know of Zwave smoke detectors that are wired? (I'm not sure I can replace wired alarms with something strictly wireless; have to check the codes at the local office.)

Thank you.

[Techman]

The eisy uses the zmatter board with the Z-wave 700 series chip and external antennas. The ISY uses either the 300 or 500 series chip. The 700 chip, with its external antennae, has a greater range over its predecessors. 

The First Alert Zcombo smoke detectors use the 500 chip. Battery operated devices don't repeat the Z-wave signal so you might need Z-wave repeater(s) depending on the location of your devices.  

Not sure if there's a hardwired Z-wave detector, you might take a look at the First Alert website to see what's available.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Techman

[BigMojo]

Quote

Would these help strengthen my Zwave system?

Sadly no, I run 13 ZCombo units and they don't act as repeaters. I've kept an eye out and searched for hardwired but I haven't found any.  When I first deployed zWave I had success buying some Leviton plug in switches and dimmers and that got all my smokes communicating solidly.

Side Note:  Our building code started out with Battery Smokes (before hardwiring was available), then to hardwired and finally back to battery units.  It turned out the hardwired units would sometimes take lightning damage and brick with no indication so they reversed the requirement.  Don't know about your codes but it's something to consider.

[ctviggen1]

Thank you both. I was headed the Eisy route anyway, it's just I might start that way before my ISY994i dies.

It is a bummer that there are no Zwave hardwired smoke detectors that act as repeaters.  Even if they used wireless for communications (and not the third wire that's run to them), the repeater function would be very helpful.  Adding 8 of them to all 3 floors of my house would help the Zwave network.  I have random plug in switches that are just set about my house doing nothing other than repeating the Zwave signal.  (I only use one of these for a lamp.)

[tlightne]

@ctviggen1 Be advised the Zcombo are not working with Zmatter at this time. UD is aware and working on the issue. Just want you to be aware do not rush into the eisy yet.  

[tlightne]

@ctviggen1 Chris Jahn found the bug in the Zwave code and will be fixed in the next release later this week...

[ctviggen1]

You know, if the eisy has longer or better zwave range, I think I have to make the transition. I have two zwave locks, one on the rear door in the basement, a few feet away from ISY994i, and one on the front door, which is on the first floor (above the basement) and on the other side of the house from the ISY. The front door is and always has been sketchy. Last night, it did not lock.  And I have many outlets near it and around it with zwave repeaters.

I think the problem may be bridging the distance from the ISY to the front door lock, as the basement has few outlets.  (On the other hand, the zwave plug in module/repeater that operates a lamp in our foyer and is only maybe 8 feet away from the lock works flawlessly.)

Either I move the ISY into the middle of the basement, possible but would entail running network cable and possibly power, or buy the eisy to see if that helps. (If it doesn't help, I can move it to the middle of the basement.)

And at some point, I have to go to the eisy anyway.

[Geddy]

3 hours ago, ctviggen1 said:

I have two zwave locks, one on the rear door in the basement, a few feet away from ISY994i, and one on the front door, which is on the first floor (above the basement) and on the other side of the house from the ISY

@ctviggen1 remember with the eisy + ZMatter dongle you could use an USB extension cable to relocate the ZMatter board to a different area. Here is a post with some 3-D printed holder options/discussions for the ZMatter dongle. A device like that would allow you to relocate the ZMatter dongle to an area away from the eisy further extending your signal from the (center of the) basement rather than where you currently have your ISY994.

Just a thought to consider other options. 

[tlightne]

@ctviggen1Every once in awhile I would see my back door fail to communicate with my 994. I upgraded to Polisy with Zoos dongle (not to because of the Zwave errors but to get into PG3 node servers) and still saw the error. Since I have upgraded to the Zmatter board with the external antenna for Zwave I have not seen any communication errors. 

[ctviggen1]

Thank you both.  How long of a USB cable could I use?

I ended up ordering everything this morning, mainly because my wife was not happy the front door wasn't locked.  Might be here on Saturday. If so, I'll update the results once installed, though the issue with the front door is that it works most of the time. The failures are intermittent.

By the way, for both the locks and the fire/smoke detectors, it would be nice if the eisy would alert you to errors.  Is this possible?  If so, is there any documentation about how to do this?

[Geddy]

14 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said:

How long of a USB cable could I use?

Not sure. I haven't tried any extension. Just know some have. I wouldn't go hundreds of feet, but think most common extensions of 5-20 feet should be more than plenty to get you started. I think with the reported better signal strength of the ZMatter antenna it might not even be needed, but was mentioned as an option should you get it and continue to have some intermittent problems. 

 

16 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said:

By the way, for both the locks and the fire/smoke detectors, it would be nice if the eisy would alert you to errors.  Is this possible?  If so, is there any documentation about how to do this?

Uncertain. I don't use either, and don't use much Z-wave at the moment so not sure if there's any way to have something report errors. I'm guessing there might be a heartbeat or connection node, but only an assumption. Better as a new question in the ZMatter area to see if there are programs or other ways to monitor the connection/status.

Also note...there has been some troubles getting locks to work with ZMatter. I don't know the current status of that with the last update and don't know what brand locks you have. So read some of the posts in the ZMatter area about the locks for more information.

19 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said:

my wife was not happy the front door wasn't locked.

And this is exactly the reason we don't have "smart locks". They're too stupid when they "don't work". I trust in my routine to lock all the doors and to double/triple check them throughout the evening before heading to bed. Security is not something I rely on automation for. It's too valuable to me and physically locking of doors and inspecting that the garage is closed are just simple measures that I don't intend to "trust" a computer to do for me. At least not while I'm physically able to do such tasks. Even if we did have "smart locks" I wouldn't feel comfortable not at least checking them on one last pass at the end of the night. 

 

[ctviggen1]

Thank you.

The other detriment I've found with these locks is that getting them to reliably go through the opening in the plate is a challenge.  Even adjusting the bottom latch so that the deadbolt SHOULD align with the opening in the plate (if the latch latches), they don't always.  This is where an error message would be good.

I'll check out the other forum.

[tazman]

33 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said:

Thank you.

The other detriment I've found with these locks is that getting them to reliably go through the opening in the plate is a challenge.  Even adjusting the bottom latch so that the deadbolt SHOULD align with the opening in the plate (if the latch latches), they don't always.  This is where an error message would be good.

I'll check out the other forum.

Depending on your lock if you look through the options in creating a program I know my lock shows "locked" "unlocked" "jammed" and "unknown" that you can write a program to notify you when it is in any of those state.

[Mecheng70]

6 hours ago, ctviggen1 said:

Thank you both.  How long of a USB cable could I use?

I use a 10ft USB (make sure it is of high quality) that allows the Zmatter module to be mounted at the top of the closet.  

 

As for the zwave locks, have you attempted to heal the network to see if that helps?  Or update it with interview?  Maybe one of the experts will confirm is removing and readding it in the place where the final resting area is makes any sense.

[ShawnW]

On 3/2/2023 at 5:15 PM, ctviggen1 said:

Thank you.

The other detriment I've found with these locks is that getting them to reliably go through the opening in the plate is a challenge.  Even adjusting the bottom latch so that the deadbolt SHOULD align with the opening in the plate (if the latch latches), they don't always.  This is where an error message would be good.

I'll check out the other forum.

So true. When you go from a typical deadbolt to any kind of smart lock, you need to first take the quality of your door's positioning up a huge notch. This applies even for situations of standing outside the door and hitting the 'lock' button, because if it fails to hit the hole it will often give up trying before you have a chance to adjust physical pressure on the door!! I've been using smart locks (ONLY for having a keypad and keyfob options) for a good ten years now and with every one I've always had to take a grinder to the deadbolt bolt to add a substantial chamber/angle to it to add some forgiveness (narrowing the width at the start by at least 25%). 
  As @Geddyeluded to, programming deadbolts to lock remotely and rely on it is asking for frequent failure. Something the industry has massively failed on is giving proper feedback of locking attempts - I personally just want to KNOW if the lock is indeed 'LOCKED' and many brands give you only electronic feedback of whether it "sent" a lock request/attempt to the lock - rarely ever any positive signal of accomplishment ie true deadbolt position.
  If anyone out there knows of a decent IoX-compatible deadbolt that truly reports correct deadbolt status PLEASE let us all know. Until then, I keep dreaming of ways to get contacts or sensing placed inside the doorframe to 'look' for the physical deadbolt (hint, there's no good options for this either). THANKS!!

[ctviggen1]

Interesting. I'll attempt to determine what mine actually does in a failure condition (eg, I wait for it to shut and purposely make it so the deadbolt won't be aligned with the hole, so the deadbolt won't get into locking position).  I know it gives an audible alarm, but I don't know what happens from an electronic reporting point of view.

I move the position of the eisy relative to the ISY 994i. This shows the location in the basement's ceiling where I put the Eisy and zwave and PLM. That outlet was there for some reason , and wasn't being used. The beam with all the cables is the main beam running approximately through the middle of the house.

And this shows the rear door with zwave lock, and the relative location of the Eisy (look above the pole).  You can barely make out the top of the ISY994i, just above the blue pillow (the ISY was mounted on the drywall in the set of shelves). I moved the Eisy about 15 feet closer to the front door (on the side of the house opposite to the door that's shown in the basement).  So far, it has not failed in shutting either the basement door shown or the front door.

[tlightne]

@ctviggen1  By the way, for both the locks and the fire/smoke detectors, it would be nice if the eisy would alert you to errors.  Is this possible?  If so, is there any documentation about how to do this?

I use the Notification Node server with my Polisy and I get reports from both my First Alert Zcombo smoke/co detectors and the three Kwickset 916 Zwave locks. For the locks I get notified of when it is unlocked (manually of keypad with user code, locked manually or from pad, if lock is jammed. I do a status check on the lock status through the day.  

[ctviggen1]

For the notification node server, is there a page/guidance about how to install and use this?  When I search (Duck Duck Go), I find threads about it, but they seem mainly discussions of errors and/or programming. Nothing to tell me how to install.

I did find this:

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY_Portal_Node_Server_Instructions

But I'm not sure if this is the same thing.

Thank you.

[DennisC]

12 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said:

For the notification node server, is there a page/guidance about how to install and use this?  When I search (Duck Duck Go), I find threads about it, but they seem mainly discussions of errors and/or programming. Nothing to tell me how to install.

I did find this:

https://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY_Portal_Node_Server_Instructions

But I'm not sure if this is the same thing.

Thank you.

The link you posted is UD's for installation of a node server.

This link will take you to the node server store:

https://polyglot.universal-devices.com/

If you scroll down and click on the node server name, Notification, you will be taken to a page with pricing information and a "More Info" button. That page will take you to the Github read me file:

https://github.com/UniversalDevicesInc-PG3/udi-poly-notification/blob/master/README.md

 

[ctviggen1]

Thank you very much.

Do you know if there is a Polygot for dummies?  I see there are some great extensions/node servers, including notification, but they all say something like "Install from the Polyglot store."  What Polyglot store?  Where is it? (I couldn't find it.)

By the way, I won't be using the Zwave smoke alarms.  My thought was because we have something like 8 wired alarms, I'd just replace the alarms with wireless by putting the new alarm over the electrical box. But the Zcombo states the following:

"Do not install this unit over an electrical junction box. Air currents around junction
boxes can prevent smoke from reaching the sensing chamber and prevent the unit from
alarming. Only AC powered units are intended for installation over junction boxes."

I can't see having 8 covered electrical junction boxes AND 8 other smoke alarms.

[DennisC]

13 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said:

Thank you very much.

Do you know if there is a Polygot for dummies?  I see there are some great extensions/node servers, including notification, but they all say something like "Install from the Polyglot store."  What Polyglot store?  Where is it? (I couldn't find it.) 

The Polyglot store is accessed from a link in the menu of PG3, which is installed on eisy and Polisy.

See instructions in the UD wiki user guide. A Google search will take you there.

[Dean]

I've converted everything over to eisy and for the most part, all went well. I am having problems with the zwave First Alert smoke detectors. I had several installed on the Polisy, but only one came over in the migration. After a few tries, I was able to get the system to interview and update the detector. However, when I try to remove or add the other detectors, it will not see these. I have done a factory reset on the detectors.

I saw that Chris had found the bug and it was updated. I am up to date on all packages, so I would think I have the latest. Can anyone give me any guidance on how I might include these in my eisy?

[Dean]

Pardon my ignorance! I bought a number of Z-wave First Alert Smoke Detectors and thought I had installed the ones downstairs that I tried to add to the system! I had not! After taking a fresh look this morning, I realized they were the old "wireless", but not z-wave. Opened up a new package and everything worked perfectly. Duh!