Method of detecting a tripped breaker?

[jec6613]

Basically what it says above.  I'm not terribly interested in having something I can reset remotely, as that seems like trouble waiting to happen (I feel that safety devices should be alarm only, control should be a separate product), just something so I know if critical circuits go offline.  I already have the Square D Wiser monitor (basically a slightly better Sense monitor), and the resolution isn't good enough, and alarming on it would involve nuisance alarms.

I've had three thoughts: first, put in some sort of device in the branch circuit and periodically query it, which is slow but effective, and the second would be to use something like a HomeSeer HS-FS100+ with light sensor and just stick it on something that's constant on, like a GFCI receptacle's light, to determine if it has power.

The third option would be to swap my electrical panel to a Leviton or similar (Span aren't large enough to meet my needs).  This isn't totally out of the realm of possibility given some circuit expansion that will require either another sub panel or larger panel in the next couple of years anyway.

Anybody have any success or thoughts?

[apostolakisl]

My first thought would be to use a device with inputs on it like a DSC alarm panel.  They come with 16 zones and you could get expanders.  Add 16 relays with 120v coils.  Put a relay on each circuit you want to monitor and then run a zone through the normally open spot on the relay.  When the circuit has power, the relay closes and the alarm panel will read as a secure zone.  If power is lost, the relay opens and the zone violates.  DSC panels have battery backup so even if the circuit powering it popped the DSC would still be monitoring.  You can connect the DSC to ISY using a node server.  You would need the DSC network interface.  Or, you may already have an alarm system in your house that is linked to ISY in which case maybe use it.

[DennisC]

Yolink has a device that detects power failures and there is a plugin to add it to UD system.

Maybe this would address your needs:

https://www.amazon.com/YoLink-Long-Range-Wireless-Monitoring-Required/dp/B09NR1YXHH/ref=asc_df_B09NR1YXHH/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=564682797774&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2728801339853085075&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004510&hvtargid=pla-1601442873504&psc=1

 

[apostolakisl]

@jec6613 @DennisC  The yolink seems like a good choice.  Though if you already have an alarm system that is connected to ISY and it has unused zones, this would be the cheapest way to get power monitored.  If it is conveniently located, you could power a relay with the circuit you are monitoring and wire that directly to your alarm panel.  If power goes out, the relay opens and the zone triggers.  Set the zone up as a monitored zone, not as fire or burglary.  It just depends on what kind of alarm panel you have, I have Elk and DSC linked to my ISY's and know how to do it with those.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by apostolakisl

[larryllix]

If you have an Insteon device, plug it into the circuit and poll the device for a response.

[jec6613]

I do have an Elk, though it's not terribly conveniently located and I have a number of circuits to monitor.  So far, it's only monitoring its own circuit, and it's the only thing important on that circuit.

After a bit more digging, I did come up with a bit different solution... Square D sells WiFi receptacles that connect to the Sense monitor, respond to pings, and aren't poorly mannered devices in the IP stack.  Coupled with the ping nodeserver, they seem reliable enough so far after about a week; I'll report back after a month.

They also integrate with sense, and, uniquely, monitors with an unswitched receptacle that's a straight passthrough with no draw restrictions, in addition to a switched one.  Given their track record on the APC side of the house, I actually have confidence these will be supported at least until I can get some of those fancy ZigBee relays that go into QO panels.

Edited November 17, 2023 by jec6613

[IndyMike]

Keeping with your HomeSeer HS-FS100+ idea, Zooz has a new repeater that is capable of detecting power outages: https://www.amazon.com/Z-Wave-Range-Extender-Signal-Repeater/dp/B0CLG6XXRQ

It includes battery backup that allows it to report an outage. 

Downsides are that it is brand new (800 series) and may not be supported by the Eisy yet "(POWER OUTAGE REPORTS: If your hub supports advanced functionality, it will display power outage reports from the extender if the receptacle it's plugged into loses power. It's equipped with built-in backup battery)".

I like Zooz in general, but have not tried this as yet.  Might be something to put on the "watch" list.

I will be trying some of their new 800 series dimmers for evaluation.

[apostolakisl]

12 hours ago, jec6613 said:

I do have an Elk, though it's not terribly conveniently located and I have a number of circuits to monitor.  So far, it's only monitoring its own circuit, and it's the only thing important on that circuit.

After a bit more digging, I did come up with a bit different solution... Square D sells WiFi receptacles that connect to the Sense monitor, respond to pings, and aren't poorly mannered devices in the IP stack.  Coupled with the ping nodeserver, they seem reliable enough so far after about a week; I'll report back after a month.

They also integrate with sense, and, uniquely, monitors with an unswitched receptacle that's a straight passthrough with no draw restrictions, in addition to a switched one.  Given their track record on the APC side of the house, I actually have confidence these will be supported at least until I can get some of those fancy ZigBee relays that go into QO panels.

With Elk you can put a zone expansion board right next to your main electric panel and run a single data wire from the zone expansion board back to Elk (or any other Elk data device).  The data cables are daisy chained, so you may already have a keypad near your main panel and thus could daisy chain it off of the keypad.  A single CAT6 can do an "out and back" if the keypad isn't already the last item on the daisy chain.

The beauty of using Elk of course is that you already have the Elk setup with power backup and a communication system that also works in power outages.

[jec6613]

9 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

With Elk you can put a zone expansion board right next to your main electric panel and run a single data wire from the zone expansion board back to Elk (or any other Elk data device).

Good general advice, but my main panel already has 46 poles and ~70 hots run in a 40 slot panel, and 16 of the poles share 8 neutrals, so I could only pick up a few circuits worth of monitoring there, for both gutter space and also that I can't connect another wire into most of the breakers.  With 85% of my wiring being MC with a spiral ground tape inside instead of a ground wire that leaves me with having to tap into it at an existing box somewhere out on the branch circuit.  And it's now hopefully apparent why I'm talking about a panel replacement in the near future, the cover barely goes on as it is.

Location-wise, the alarm box is on the other side of the basement with no nearby keypads - though that's relatively minor as the basement is unfinished and I already have the LV cable pathing throughout (I have a ton of LV).  Two of the branch circuits have accessible boxes in the basement, the remainder only have boxes in the finished living area.

The other issue is, the secondary panel with yet more circuits to monitor is in a semi-detached garage that I'd need to run another conduit to, as my existing LV conduit is filled with CAT6 and fiber optics.

 

[jec6613]

10 hours ago, IndyMike said:

I like Zooz in general, but have not tried this as yet.  Might be something to put on the "watch" list.

I'll report back after Thanksgiving to see if it's any good on IoX.  At minimum, if it allows me to reduce my current fleet extenders, I'll be happy.

[GJ Software Products]

I use the NO contact relay method other's have mentioned here to catch a power outage to a large chiller plant (1,500 tons)  The PLC is on SEP/UPS power and continues to run thru the outage but when the power comes back I have to initiate a recovery sequence, I.E. reposition valves, reset VFDs, recalculate staging, open valve, prove valve, start pump, prove pump, start chiller, etc. and trapping the open on the NO contact when the coil voltage fails has worked great for a few years now.  

[jec6613]

On 11/17/2023 at 10:08 PM, jec6613 said:

I'll report back after Thanksgiving to see if it's any good on IoX.  At minimum, if it allows me to reduce my current fleet extenders, I'll be happy.

It arrived sooner than expected, and does indeed report power loss and appears to continue routing Z-Wave messages after power loss on 5.7.1.

[IndyMike]

16 hours ago, jec6613 said:

It arrived sooner than expected, and does indeed report power loss and appears to continue routing Z-Wave messages after power loss on 5.7.1.

@jec6613, Thank you for reporting back.  Another new device to add to my wish list.  Will be curious if you can detect whether the 800 series device communicates "better" that your older devices.

FWIW, I installed 2 Zooz Zen77 LR (800 series Long Range dimmers) in problem locations in my house.  The devices paired easily to my Zooz 700 series ZStick, and are communicating directly with the controller despite having found 14 neighbors.  This appears to be an improvement over the 700 series devices that were installed despite the fact that the 700 Series Zstick does not support the new 800 LR features.

 

[jec6613]

On 11/21/2023 at 8:07 AM, IndyMike said:

Will be curious if you can detect whether the 800 series device communicates "better" that your older devices.

They appear to do at least as well as the Aeotec 700 series extenders, but right now I have two sets of extenders: one for door locks, and one for everything else, so I have way more coverage than I need - a legacy of the lack of S2 support on the ISY, and some of the design choices made by Aeotec.

[jec6613]

So, further update: yep, these are worth it, and currently on sale.  However, the v1.30 firmware update is pretty darn important for reliability.

[IndyMike]

56 minutes ago, jec6613 said:

So, further update: yep, these are worth it, and currently on sale.  However, the v1.30 firmware update is pretty darn important for reliability.

Thanks for the update.  I have one on order

Edited January 25 by IndyMike

[palayman]

You could always put a cheap wireless camera in front of the panel and watch for motion with the sensitivity turned up.

This has the benefit of giving you the status of all the breakers.

I sort of use this method with a Zuba Central Heat Pump that I can't get a network thermostat for.  Cheap camera looking at the thermostat so I can check it now and then when I'm away.

Paul

[larryllix]

You could always put a cheap wireless camera in front of the panel and watch for motion with the sensitivity turned up.
This has the benefit of giving you the status of all the breakers.
I sort of use this method with a Zuba Central Heat Pump that I can't get a network thermostat for.  Cheap camera looking at the thermostat so I can check it now and then when I'm away.
Paul

One of the problems with monitoring equipment is when you see some failure, what can you do about it?

Now the same events are happening and you can't fix it but it can ruin the rest of your 56 day cruise.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[palayman]

28 minutes ago, larryllix said:

One of the problems with monitoring equipment is when you see some failure, what can you do about it?

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk
 

I can call my son who lives 10 minutes away.

Paul

[rg65]

This is what I use:

https://www.amazon.com/Ecolink-Enabled-Security-Intruder-ISZW7-ECO/dp/B099CS76K3/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1KL8F1M3K8LGA&keywords=ecolink+chime+and+siren&qid=1708048884&sprefix=ecolink+chime+and+siren%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1

I have it setup to notify me on power failure and restoral, but, I am running on an older HomeSeer box.  I haven't tried to add it to my EISY.