Future in Insteon

[DAlter01]

17 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said:

And, given all that's on our plate with our existing contracts, I am not so sure we will have the bandwidth to support new INSTEON products in a timely manner.

Michel, glad to hear UD is doing well.  Having contracts to do work must be a refreshing approach by the other parties UD is working with versus the non-recognition UD seems to get from Insteon.  This, despite UD being helpful to their business model.  Maybe Insteon doesn't "get it" that UD isn't a competitor but is a facilitator to their tech.   My last house would not have scaled up from 15 Insteon devices to 180 Insteon devices had it not been for they ISY.   While one house doesn't move the needle for Insteon, times that by 1,000-10,000 houses/businesses in similar situations and it is definently signficant.

Hopefully your statement of UD possibly not supporting the new PLM in a timely manner is just "talk" out of understandable frustration.  There will be a lot of people that will have less need for Insteon without the ISY and, similarly, without Insteon, to a degree there will be less need for UD's products without Insteon.  Bigger opportunities may dictate that direction for UD but it will be a dark period within the Insteon community.  

Edited January 14, 2021 by dalter2
typo

[MrBill]

@dalter2 Here's a post Michel made awhile back that better puts this into perspective:

 

[Goose66]

What I would REALLY like to see (assuming, of course, the demise of the ISY/Insteon "partnership") is a local API for the Insteon hub - ideally two-way, realtime, and REST/UDP-based. That way, the hub would contain all the vagueries of PLM communications and device-specific data interfaces. A nodeserver could be developed to allow the ISY to continue to support Insteon and the Hub/app could be used for Insteon configuration (and, potentially for non core-ISY folks, local and remote control, Alexa/GH support, etc.) That way, when new Insteon devices were made available, support for them would be immediate - no need for Insteon to communicate details to third-parties (which they are evidently very bad at) or waiting for new ISY firmware for support of the new devices. 

Seems to make perfect sense to me for a hardware manufacturer to want this too, but based on what most of them end up doing, I obviously don't get it!

Edited January 14, 2021 by Goose66

[smokegrub]

Allow an older, lay user to make a few observations. Not all homeowners are interested in home automation. None of my family are interested nor are any of my neighbors of whom I am aware. Some are messing around a bit with Alexa; most are not. I suspect most see the task of setting up a system as too daunting and they haven't a clue who could set it up and what the cost/benefits might be. As for me I have two homes with two separate home automation systems, two ISYs and all Insteon devices. I set them up with awesome help from this forum and a lot of work. I have Echo's scattered throughout both homes and use verbal commands to execute desired automation functions. I have never used a contractor nor do I intend to do so. Is my work complete? No!!! Routine maintenance is essential. I must emphasize "routine". I enjoy the challenge but, being almost 76 years old, my wife and I have discussed who will maintain it if I am unable? The answer, it will probably have to be removed even if the home is sold or becomes the property of our heirs. As for the fate of Insteon, I want them to succeed into the foreseeable future. I don't want to, nor do I have need to, change/add technologies. The fact that devices are being discontinued is disconcerting to say the least and especially so given the description "discontinued". 

 

[mmb]

12 minutes ago, smokegrub said:

Not all homeowners are interested in home automation. None of my family are interested nor are any of my neighbors of whom I am aware.

Well I think there is interest as proved by wifi light bulbs, switches etc but like you said the setup can be overwhleming.

Once my brother got a taste of automation he went nuts, he's darn close to fully automated with the hub being an ISY with help from IFTTT to tie in his Wyze Cams for motion detection and recording.

[lilyoyo1]

12 minutes ago, mmb said:

Well I think there is interest as proved by wifi light bulbs, switches etc but like you said the setup can be overwhleming.

Once my brother got a taste of automation he went nuts, he's darn close to fully automated with the hub being an ISY with help from IFTTT to tie in his Wyze Cams for motion detection and recording.

There's a lot of interest...Just not a lot of desire to invest what it takes to achieve it. Smart products are growing in the homes.....full automation- is a different story

[Goose66]

And with full automation being the goal of some over the last 25+ years or so, there's been nothing but disappointment coming from manufacturers. In my first house in 1995 I had X10 switches and modules w/ a PC controller that output a GUI interface to my projection TV and a IBM voice processing card allowing for voice control. I ran VBscripts with time and event processing that allowed some real "automation" of the house. The problem then, of course, was that while I could control what X10 allowed, I couldn't really integrate it with a lot of other things in my house. 

Fast forward 25 years to today and all the new great technology has brought us...

[asbril]

1 hour ago, smokegrub said:

Allow an older, lay user to make a few observations. Not all homeowners are interested in home automation. None of my family are interested nor are any of my neighbors of whom I am aware. Some are messing around a bit with Alexa; most are not. I suspect most see the task of setting up a system as too daunting and they haven't a clue who could set it up and what the cost/benefits might be. As for me I have two homes with two separate home automation systems, two ISYs and all Insteon devices. I set them up with awesome help from this forum and a lot of work. I have Echo's scattered throughout both homes and use verbal commands to execute desired automation functions. I have never used a contractor nor do I intend to do so. Is my work complete? No!!! Routine maintenance is essential. I must emphasize "routine". I enjoy the challenge but, being almost 76 years old, my wife and I have discussed who will maintain it if I am unable? The answer, it will probably have to be removed even if the home is sold or becomes the property of our heirs. As for the fate of Insteon, I want them to succeed into the foreseeable future. I don't want to, nor do I have need to, change/add technologies. The fact that devices are being discontinued is disconcerting to say the least and especially so given the description "discontinued". 

 

Though I am a few years younger than you, I share your concerns on there to be nobody in my family to maintain (or even wanting to understand) my home automation. The only thing I could think of was to post UDI's phone and email in our kitchen  That would be my last posthumous contact with UDI...... hopefully many years away.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Goose66 said:

And with full automation being the goal of some over the last 25+ years or so, there's been nothing but disappointment coming from manufacturers. In my first house in 1995 I had X10 switches and modules w/ a PC controller that output a GUI interface to my projection TV and a IBM voice processing card allowing for voice control. I ran VBscripts with time and event processing that allowed some real "automation" of the house. The problem then, of course, was that while I could control what X10 allowed, I couldn't really integrate it with a lot of other things in my house. 

Fast forward 25 years to today and all the new great technology has brought us...

I think it's come far in the last 25 years. Especially the last 10. When I look at what I'm doing now vs the past, there's a huge difference. I remember the days of having 2 8 button keypads in all major rooms and 1 in the others. One kpl would be for the room and the other would be for the status/control of other stuff in other rooms. Then apps came along. Cancel the second kpl. Move past houselinc and on to the isy. With the syncrolinc and global cache, I could now add my audio and video to the system in regards to controlling. Still limited but beyond lights. 

Today it's a different world. Now, it's a single 6 button kpl (really only need 4) in the rooms and no need for an app.

It'll cost you but you can achieve automation on a grander scale that's affordable. With noderservers, you can integrate harmony and sonos with your system. If I'm out on the patio with friends, as it gets late in the evening, the volume will automatically turn down on the system. That way I'm not disturbing neighbors or my wife. If I'm out there in the afternoon, and it starts getting dark, the lights will turn on. If we go inside and forget to turn stuff off, I don't have to worry about stuff being left on. Whether it's the tv, music, lights, or all, they'll turn off on their own or if I hit my goodnight button. 

Sometimes we'll be outside relaxing with music on in the background. We'll end up turning on the tv at which point the music volume will automatically lower. If we decide to watch a movie, the music will automatically turn off. None of this was possible years ago without multiple steps. 

It took a lot of time, money, and work but in the end, what's happening now is amazing especially compared to 5 years ago 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by lilyoyo1

[Goose66]

But, again in the context of "full automation being the goal," manufacturers have done little to help by keeping their systems closed. The promise was the "Internet of Things" - everything online and talking to each other. The reality is that most manufacturers don't want anything to talk their things but their own things. Whether it is inability to provide interfaces or unwillingness to lose potential revenue streams, this tendency of manufacturers to lockdown their devices and ecosystems has been a thorn in the side of true home automation enthusiasts for decades.

[lilyoyo1]

9 minutes ago, Goose66 said:

But, again in the context of "full automation being the goal," manufacturers have done little to help by keeping their systems closed. The promise was the "Internet of Things" - everything online and talking to each other. The reality is that most manufacturers don't want anything to talk their things but their own things. Whether it is inability to provide interfaces or unwillingness to lose potential revenue streams, this tendency of manufacturers to lockdown their devices and ecosystems has been a thorn in the side of true home automation enthusiasts for decades.

From that standpoint I see your point. Luckily, there are systems that do allow others to join in and work with other stuff to accomplish those goals. 

[Michel Kohanim]

6 hours ago, dalter2 said:

Hopefully your statement of UD possibly not supporting the new PLM in a timely manner is just "talk" out of understandable frustration.  There will be a lot of people that will have less need for Insteon without the ISY and, similarly, without Insteon, to a degree there will be less need for UD's products without Insteon.  Bigger opportunities may dictate that direction for UD but it will be a dark period within the Insteon community.  

Hi @dalter2,

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I didn't say we would not support the PLM. I said, we won't have the bandwidth to support their newer devices in a timely manner. If they have APIs available, then it'll be a little easier.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Goose66]

This forum may be one of the largest grouping of Insteon users there is (or I am delusional). Perhaps we should sign a petition or demand for a local TCP/IP-based API for a PLM or Insteon Hub to be added to the mix. I would develop and implement it if they would give me the Hub source code.

Or better yet, put Node Server API support right in the thing!

Edited January 14, 2021 by Goose66

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Goose66 said:

This forum may be one of the largest grouping of Insteon users there is (or I am delusional). Perhaps we should sign a petition or demand for a local TCP/IP-based API for a PLM or Insteon Hub to be added to the mix. I would develop and implement it if they would give me the Hub source code.

Or better yet, put Node Server API support right in the thing!

Id love if that worked. The problem is the people who could make that decision wouldn't. While they have a new owner, the daily decision makers are still the same people with the same backwards mentality. 

They have some great people who want to see insteon expand into the new age. I could see them doing something like this. Unfortunately, until the old guard is replaced, it'll always be limited.

[asbril]

50 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Id love if that worked. The problem is the people who could make that decision wouldn't. While they have a new owner, the daily decision makers are still the same people with the same backwards mentality. 

They have some great people who want to see insteon expand into the new age. I could see them doing something like this. Unfortunately, until the old guard is replaced, it'll always be limited.

There is some comparison with what happened between  (Apple's) Mac and (MS') Windows. MS opened Windows to other manufacturers and MAC did not. Many considered, at least at the time, that MAC was better than Windows, but the latter became the bigger success. @lilyoyo1 (and others) consider that Insteon is the better system, but Zwave is growing more.

[lilyoyo1]

18 minutes ago, asbril said:

There is some comparison with what happened between  (Apple's) Mac and (MS') Windows. MS opened Windows to other manufacturers and MAC did not. Many considered, at least at the time, that MAC was better than Windows, but the latter became the bigger success. @lilyoyo1 (and others) consider that Insteon is the better system, but Zwave is growing more.

Excellent comparison. Though I don't use Mac (wife does), I will say it's better than a PC. I don't like the limitations apple puts on users, which is funny because I feel completely opposite in this situation.

[simplextech]

2 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Excellent comparison. Though I don't use Mac (wife does), I will say it's better than a PC. I don't like the limitations apple puts on users, which is funny because I feel completely opposite in this situation.

Funny.  I don't currently have a Mac but I have in the past.  Considering OSX is unix under the hood I didn't find any "limitations"  you just have to go beyond the presented options.

[Goose66]

14 hours ago, simplextech said:

Funny.  I don't currently have a Mac but I have in the past.  Considering OSX is unix under the hood I didn't find any "limitations"  you just have to go beyond the presented options.

Ok, now we've really gone off the rails...

[simplextech]

Just now, Goose66 said:

Ok, now we've really gone off the rails...

There were rails to begin with???? where???

If I had to color within the lines I wouldn't be a developer I'd be a painter

 

[larryllix]

6 minutes ago, simplextech said:

There were rails to begin with???? where???

If I had to color within the lines I wouldn't be a developer I'd be a painter

 

Installed your ISY-Inventory NS. Very nice!

Had some trouble not reloading the A/C and tries re/re. Caused myself some ecobee NS problems where the PIN became unsynced and had to fix that one.

All is good now! Thanx lots!

[Teken]

Id love if that worked. The problem is the people who could make that decision wouldn't. While they have a new owner, the daily decision makers are still the same people with the same backwards mentality. 
They have some great people who want to see insteon expand into the new age. I could see them doing something like this. Unfortunately, until the old guard is replaced, it'll always be limited.

Taking a moment to reply to this topic as it seems to arise every year. Smartlabs as indicated above will continue at their own pace, right or wrong.

Given UDI has opened their platform to integrate with Z-Wave this offers one direct route. Deploying a Node Server (NS) via RPI / Polisy opens the doors to almost any IoT.

Having these two solutions offers the end user an exit strategy / migration path if needed. Now, if the question is - was can this company do better in product roll outs?

Yes . . .

Can they do better in public announcements?

Yes . . .

Can they offer the Beta group more insight, feedback, and God forbid. Use this valuable resource to identify bugs and product improvements vs a waste land of nothing?

Yes . . .

This company from the very beginning had focus and purpose when the talented people were allowed to speak and make a difference. As history has proven Joe squandered and pissed it away until the very best left or were fired.

Fast forward 20 years later we have the exact same piss poor leadership!

It’s truly dumb luck this company and its technology is still present in 2021. If Smartlabs has truly killed off the international PLM Pro this simply affirms yet again the leadership & fools are still present and accounted for within the company.

Every day there is another start up able to bring to market their wares. This has no baring on whether they have staying power but directly contradicts the notion it’s not possible to obtain certification and all the required market qualifications.

I know personally, having been involved in no less than 48 startup projects that came to market and continue to sell their wares.

Smartlabs has been in business for more than 20 years and knows the process. They have more than two decades of relationships with vendors for their wares.

Anyone who believes the PLM Pro or any other hardware is slow to market due to supply constraints needs to shake their head. The PLM Pro has taken another back seat to yet another POS Hub.

From my perspective it’s a hate / love relationship with UDI. Smartlabs under Joe Blow in the way distant past committed to sell the Insteon chips so UDI could build an international multi voltage / freq PLM. But no surprise Joe Blow reneged and didn’t sell the chips to UDI!!

Fast forward a year later Smartlabs offers not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 Hubs?!? If that isn’t a dick punch I don’t know!

Years later, UDI informs the general public the reason the ISY isn’t currently available via Smarthome is the fact they are slow *** in paying for said hardware!

All the while in ten freaking years the new imbeciles in power at Smartlabs have failed to release an existing piece of hardware to our brothers across the pond?!?

Why?

Because this company is run by a moron. There are almost 8 billion people on this blue planet. North America only makes up X percent of that population.

Why does a company exist?

To make money, market share, and recycle these two.

Yet this company with all their talent and two decades of business relationships. Doesn’t see millions of dollars could be made just by expanding their wares to other countries???

It’s a fact if the PLM Pro ever came to market the heavens would open up and gold coins would rain upon Smartlabs. But that won’t ever happen because you guessed it - a moron is at the helm.

As I have stated in the past all of these protocols are a joke. It doesn’t matter if it was X-10 to Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, WiFi, BLE, name what ever.

The real future is in the smart panel. As of this writing it’s very much a niche product and market segment. Will it ever gain mass adoption - probably not. So, the general public will have to settle for 1970 technology for another 10-15 years of Z-Wave, ZigBee, Insteon.

Having installed four smart panels and working on them in hundreds of enterprise sites. This is the path I’ll follow and prepping for now.

My view is like lilyoyo which is just enjoy the tech now. Buy what you need and keep a decent amount of spares on hand in case Smartlabs folds. None of us can see into the future but surely can foreshadow things to come!

Based on history, trends, and personal experience.

[lilyoyo1]

6 minutes ago, Teken said:

Welcome back buddy.....At least we finally get to start the year off right and argue for once. ?

Taking a moment to reply to this topic as it seems to arise every year. Smartlabs as indicated above will continue at their own pace, right or wrong.

Given UDI has opened their platform to integrate with Z-Wave this offers one direct route. Deploying a Node Server (NS) via RPI / Polisy opens the doors to almost any IoT.

Having these two solutions offers the end user an exit strategy / migration path if needed. Now, if the question is - was can this company do better in product roll outs?

Yes . . .

Can they do better in public announcements?

Yes . . .

Can they offer the Beta group more insight, feedback, and God forbid. Use this valuable resource to identify bugs and product improvements vs a waste land of nothing?

Yes . . .

This company from the very beginning had focus and purpose when the talented people were allowed to speak and make a difference. As history has proven Joe squandered and pissed it away until the very best left or were fired.

All Very true. No argument from me

Fast forward 20 years later we have the exact same piss poor leadership!

It’s truly dumb luck this company and its technology is still present in 2021. If Smartlabs has truly killed off the international PLM Pro this simply affirms yet again the leadership & fools are still present and accounted for within the company.

The only people who know about the future of the new plm (or any other product) are the employees that are directly involved with it's development. Their customer support would have no idea (especially the outsourced people) about the status or timeline of ANY device that they were creating. An outside person MAY know due to personal relationships but they most likely wouldn't say anything openly on a public forum unless given permission to say something. With that said, any information that's out in the open is either improper or flat out based on personal assumptions. 

Every day there is another start up able to bring to market their wares. This has no baring on whether they have staying power but directly contradicts the notion it’s not possible to obtain certification and all the required market qualifications. 

This isn't fair to any company that actually develops their own product. It's possible to obtain certification but quality is missing. In the end, there's a reason why they are fly by night companies. They are simply paying a factory for base designs and stamping their name on it. No R&D and quality checks involved. Under those circumstances of course you'll come to market much faster than a company that is investing its own time and money vs buying someone else's product and putting your name on it. 

I know personally, having been involved in no less than 48 startup projects that came to market and continue to sell their wares.

Smartlabs has been in business for more than 20 years and knows the process. They have more than two decades of relationships with vendors for their wares.

Anyone who believes the PLM Pro or any other hardware is slow to market due to supply constraints needs to shake their head. The PLM Pro has taken another back seat to yet another POS Hub.

There actually is supply constraints when it comes to getting the components to make devices. I deal with a multitude of different companies and there are quite a few that are struggling to get parts in. In the next few months you'll see it get worst with hue, lifx, harmony, etc as devices get harder to find. It's that way with lifx already. Even with zwave; there were quite a few 700 series devices that were supposed to be released already but are on hold until further notice. 

From my perspective it’s a hate / love relationship with UDI. Smartlabs under Joe Blow in the way distant past committed to sell the Insteon chips so UDI could build an international multi voltage / freq PLM. But no surprise Joe Blow reneged and didn’t sell the chips to UDI!!

Fast forward a year later Smartlabs offers not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 Hubs?!? If that isn’t a dick punch I don’t know!

Realistically they only offer 1 hub and that's the 2245-222. It's possible to get other hubs but those are discontinued so they shouldn't count in the equation. The intl. versions shouldn't count either since they technically aren't sold here. 

Years later, UDI informs the general public the reason the ISY isn’t currently available via Smarthome is the fact they are slow *** in paying for said hardware!
Hopefully both companies can come back together again soon. I do wish the old guard at insteon would be replaced as they are dragging the company down. 
All the while in ten freaking years the new imbeciles in power at Smartlabs have failed to release an existing piece of hardware to our brothers across the pond?!?

Why?

Because this company is run by a moron. There are almost 8 billion people on this blue planet. North America only makes up X percent of that population.

Why does a company exist?

To make money, market share, and recycle these two.

Yet this company with all their talent and two decades of business relationships. Doesn’t see millions of dollars could be made just by expanding their wares to other countries???

It’s a fact if the PLM Pro ever came to market the heavens would open up and gold coins would rain upon Smartlabs. But that won’t ever happen because you guessed it - a moron is at the helm.

As I have stated in the past all of these protocols are a joke. It doesn’t matter if it was X-10 to Insteon, Z-Wave, ZigBee, WiFi, BLE, name what ever.

The real future is in the smart panel. As of this writing it’s very much a niche product and market segment. Will it ever gain mass adoption - probably not. So, the general public will have to settle for 1970 technology for another 10-15 years of Z-Wave, ZigBee, Insteon.

There are pros and cons to everything. What 1 system can do for one may not be right for another. It's all about what matters most to a person. From the things you always talk about, smart panels are perfect. However, not everyone uses HA for energy savings. While there can be some savings, many use it for convenience and experience.

For example, I don't care about energy savings. I know if I turn a light or tv on, it's using power. I'm ok with that. When I go in the theater room and use all that's in there, I'm using a lot of power. I'm ok with that. I knew what I was doing from the start. What I enjoy most (besides the automated aspect) is the dimming capabilities of lights. The ramping effect when they turn on/off. The ability to easily control the light levels at night etc. Currently, I just don't see smart panels giving me what I'm looking for at this time. Maybe in the future but not today. 

Having installed four smart panels and working on them in hundreds of enterprise sites. This is the path I’ll follow and prepping for now.

My view is like lilyoyo which is just enjoy the tech now. Buy what you need and keep a decent amount of spares on hand in case Smartlabs folds. None of us can see into the future but surely can foreshadow things to come!

Based on history, trends, and personal experience.

 

[larryllix]

Insteon/Smarthome's record speaks for itself.

How many products have Insteon discontinued in the last ten years? 10, maybe 15?
How many new products have Insteon created in the last ten years?  3 or 4?
How many of those new products were just bug fixes for their defective designs? All, except for the "amazing, new" Siren... a copy of the X10 beeper from 1980?

Many other HA companies have produced smart lock, thermostats, talking speakers and devices that take spoken commands etc etc... What has Insteon produced?   0.

Insteon shows all the signs of a company  slowly folding up and about to go bankrupt. They appear to be living off somebody's daddy's estate money. If the Insteon protocol and their basic initial product offering hadn't been such good quality, they would only be a lingering name to reminisce about and ridicule.

Insteon shows all the signs of another one person company, working out of his garage. Insteon isn't a ship without a rudder, it is just a raft drifting over the falls.

Edited February 6, 2021 by larryllix

[DAlter01]

Yesterday I elected to choose insteon for lighting at my new house and ordered a large quantity of 6 buttons, dimmers, etc.  Of course they were out of Lamplincs.  I will know soon another indicator of the extent of the flawed logic at the miss-named company "Smartlabs", where the word Smart should be removed from the sign over the door.

Will they throttle my order back and partial ship it despite still having product on their shelves?  It will not surprise me and I'll comment plenty if that happens.... And, probably send back the partial shipment and spend 4X on my second choice which is Lutron. 

I feel like I'm gambling by investing money and time in an Insteon based HA lighting system. Some gambles pay off, some don't.  I figure if I get the system fully purchased with a 5-10 percent reserve stock of replacement parts I'll have a system with a 10+ year usable lifespan no matter what happens to Smartlabs once my new system is built out.  A 10 year system life is reasonable given the low cost of an Insteon based system. Anything beyond that is a gift.

I'll let the forum know if my large order gets fulfilled.

[lilyoyo1]

46 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Insteon/Smarthome's record speaks for itself.

How many products have Insteon discontinued in the last ten years? 10, maybe 15?
How many new products have Insteon created in the last ten years?  3 or 4?
How many of those new products were just bug fixes for their defective designs? All, except for the "amazing, new" Siren... a copy of the X10 beeper from 1980?

Many other HA companies have produced smart lock, thermostats, talking speakers and devices that take spoken commands etc etc... What has Insteon produced?   0.

This is incorrect. This is more about the protocol than an actual individual company. Lock makers makes zwave locks. Hvac companies make thermostats. There isn't a fibaro or aeotec door lock or thermostat. Nor have they made talking devices. Controllers use Alexa, google, or Apple. Even with the amount of devices insteons has disco'd over the past year, their current lineup can still hold up to most others out there. 

Being sole sourced, they do need a better job of getting things to the market and/or involving others to fill in the gaps. At the very least, open their controller to work with wifi based devices that could fill in the gap such as specific locks and thermostats. 

Insteon shows all the signs of a company  slowly folding up and about to go bankrupt. They appear to be living off somebody's daddy's estate money. If the Insteon protocol and their basic initial product offering hadn't been such good quality, they would only be a lingering name to reminisce about and ridicule.

Insteon shows all the signs of another one person company, working out of his garage. Insteon isn't a ship without a rudder, it is just a raft drifting over the falls.