Insteon acquired and servers coming back up

[MrBill]

4 minutes ago, Pacman said:

I actually took the experience of sort of, "Why the hell didn't I do this sooner?"

You have exactly the correct idea.    I used an Insteon Hub for about two weeks, I switched for exactly two reasons, you could only use Sunset and Sunrise in exactly one scene (but I didn't know much about scenes then) and the more important reason was the cloud dependency.  I built my automation system around the fact that system should always work without internet. 

The Jury is still out to me about whether I even want to move to Polisy (I already own 2, as well as 2 994's), but apparently Polisy has to phone home a lot more frequently than is documented (other than in some forum posts).  Apparently however from other forum posts: it must phone home during startup.  The users adds the UUID of the unit to portal then somehow magically that makes the portals tab appear in the admin console.  That must mean that Polisy is phoning home to find out if someone has put it's UUID into the portal... What else is it talking about?  Nothing has been disclosed.

Secondly, it's been recently documented that PG3 was designed to phone home frequently to make sure you purchased the node servers you're using.  The problem with that is how long does it last if you don't have an internet connection?  Also what happens if UD servers cease to exist someday?  If PG3 gets "the number you've dialed has been disconnected" what happens then?  This hasn't been disclosed.  

[Athlon]

5 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I used an Insteon Hub for about two weeks, I switched for exactly two reasons, you could only use Sunset and Sunrise in exactly one scene (but I didn't know much about scenes then)

Exactly my experience. My time with the Hub was however long it took to get my first ISY. It was the lack of time offsets that did it for me.

Before that I was using a program to control my X-10 devices that have since been retired.....

Stu helped me with wiring my first 3 way dimmers......

Edited June 15, 2022 by Athlon

[Techman]

@MrBill

It's time to do an experiment, disconnect your Polisy from the internet and lets see what works and what doesn't.

[MrBill]

42 minutes ago, Techman said:

@MrBill

It's time to do an experiment, disconnect your Polisy from the internet and lets see what works and what doesn't.

Problem is I'm not using it for anything, and i don't want to buy PG3 node servers until i know I'm going to use them, and that's part of what phoning home is all about, so without buying a node server it's not a true test.

Besides, I like optional cloud services such as portal for remote access.  I just wish it was disclosed 1) when it phones home 2) what it's talking about.   Today those answers seem to be a black hole, and transparency is a grey area.

[Michel Kohanim]

52 minutes ago, MrBill said:

The Jury is still out to me about whether I even want to move to Polisy (I already own 2, as well as 2 994's), but apparently Polisy has to phone home a lot more frequently than is documented (other than in some forum posts).  Apparently however from other forum posts: it must phone home during startup.  The users adds the UUID of the unit to portal then somehow magically that makes the portals tab appear in the admin console.  That must mean that Polisy is phoning home to find out if someone has put it's UUID into the portal... What else is it talking about?  Nothing has been disclosed.

Secondly, it's been recently documented that PG3 was designed to phone home frequently to make sure you purchased the node servers you're using.  The problem with that is how long does it last if you don't have an internet connection?  Also what happens if UD servers cease to exist someday?  If PG3 gets "the number you've dialed has been disconnected" what happens then?  This hasn't been disclosed.  

A lot of conjecture that could have been answered  without the conjecturing, assuming, and presuming things. Completely and utterly 21st century.

Just like 994, Polisy does not require internet connectivity for things that are not internet dependent: Z-Wave, INSTEON, Matter etc. 

Portal tab uses the same exact (100%) procedure as you trial license for ISY994. It's not magical. It's IDENTICAL. 

Extremely disappointing.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

 

[Techman]

Once the node server is installed on the Polisy it's linked to the Polisy UUID.

The only reason I can think of for it to access the internet would be for portal access or to check for updates.

[MrBill]

8 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

A lot of conjecture that could have been answered  without the conjecturing, assuming, and presuming things. Completely and utterly 21st century.

Just like 994, Polisy does not require internet connectivity for things that are not internet dependent: Z-Wave, INSTEON, Matter etc. 

Portal tab uses the same exact (100%) procedure as you trial license for ISY994. It's not magical. It's IDENTICAL. 

Extremely disappointing.

With kind regards,
Michel

 

 

With all due respect Michel it's *not* the same.  For the 994 to connect to the portal the users has to add the module by purchasing it (for $1?)  Somehow Polisy magically knows its UUID was added to portal, How does it know that?  This is not my first attempt at trying to find that out. 

Second, it's recently disclosed in a thread that PG3 must remain connected to the internet and it was designed that way.  That's contrary to how I believed products from Universal Devices were geared to work.

[Hoosier Daddy]

1 minute ago, MrBill said:

With all due respect Michel it's *not* the same.  For the 994 to connect to the portal the users has to add the module by purchasing it (for $1?)  Somehow Polisy magically knows its UUID was added to portal, How does it know that?  This is not my first attempt at trying to find that out. 

Second, it's recently disclosed in a thread that PG3 must remain connected to the internet and it was designed that way.  That's contrary to how I believed products from Universal Devices were geared to work.

I recall needing to email my UUID to UDI sales so they could add it to the portal. Nothing magic about it.

[Techman]

6 minutes ago, MrBill said:

With all due respect Michel it's *not* the same.  For the 994 to connect to the portal the users has to add the module by purchasing it (for $1?)  Somehow Polisy magically knows its UUID was added to portal, How does it know that?  This is not my first attempt at trying to find that out. 

Second, it's recently disclosed in a thread that PG3 must remain connected to the internet and it was designed that way.  That's contrary to how I believed products from Universal Devices were geared to work.

It's possible that some of the data a particular node server needs is internet based, thus the connection to the internet in order for the data to stay current.

[Michel Kohanim]

12 minutes ago, MrBill said:

For the 994 to connect to the portal the users has to add the module by purchasing it (for $1?)  Somehow Polisy magically knows its UUID was added to portal, How does it know that?  This is not my first attempt at trying to find that out. 

Yet more assumptions and absolutely untrue! For 994, there are three ways:

1. Buy the module for $23 (2 years) or $15 (1 year) -> put a record in the database for expiry date in 1 or 2 years
2. Trial license (what we ask customers do with Polisy) -> put a record in the same database for expiry date in 30 days
3. Send a request to sales

Admin Console (NOT ISY nor Polisy), Help | Manage Module checks what's installed on Polisy or ISY994 and compares it with what's in the database in the cloud based on UUID. It then presents Install/Uninstall. This process is 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000% identical on both. The only difference is that we do not allow modules to be purchased for Polisy because everything is moving to node servers.

12 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Second, it's recently disclosed in a thread that PG3 must remain connected to the internet and it was designed that way.  That's contrary to how I believed products from Universal Devices were geared to work.

Please post the thread that "disclosed" the "must" for PG3 remaining connected to the internet. 

PG3 itself is not persistently connected to the internet. There might be node servers (all cloud based node servers) that rely on the internet. PG3 itself only checks the license for node servers that are not free/perpetual and only after start of a node server. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[Hoosier Daddy]

2 hours ago, Pacman said:

So riddle me this...

For those of us that did the panic leap from dead Insteon Hub to Polisy or similar, what would be the merit of ever going back to the Insteon Hub?  I actually took the experience of sort of, "Why the hell didn't I do this sooner?"

I get that it would be swell if Insteon started manufacturing PLM's, switches, et al again.  I've always liked most of the devices, but that period of smart home to incredibly awkward and really dumb home is not something I'd like to repeat.

I juggled ISY vs Insteon hub also, many years ago. I think it was because I thought I wanted HomeKit / iPhone control. Then I realized that looking for my phone, opening an app, finding the device, was much more work than just flipping a switch on a wall. The automation aspect was never a contest between the two, I just thought that I wanted a way to turn on a light while sitting on my couch. Dumb.

[Geddy]

2 hours ago, Pacman said:

For those of us that did the panic leap from dead Insteon Hub to Polisy or similar, what would be the merit of ever going back to the Insteon Hub?  I actually took the experience of sort of, "Why the hell didn't I do this sooner?"

I think the key is in the versatility of the Polisy (and previous to that the ISY994). When I first considered home automation a friend of mine suggested the Insteon products, but directed me to the ISY994 as the controller. I saw there was a hub, but that person told me the ISY994 abilities were far superior. So I took the plunge. that was over 6 years ago. 

From what I've seen through the years of learning, and reading these forums, is that the abilities of the Polisy (and previous ISY994) are miles beyond what could be programmed via the hub. Add to it the node server abilities, and you control different devices and eco systems. The abilities are near endless!

I think the biggest issue is the learning curve, but the second biggest issue is "what can I do now?". And that's where budget comes into play. How big do you want to expand your systems to handle more of what Polisy can control?

If you're a small DIY or just want a neat way to tell your phone or voice assistant (Echo or Google Home) to turn things on and off then perhaps the hub is simple and all you need. But if that's the case many wouldn't be on Insteon devices in the first place, and might just use wifi devices available from the likes of Kasa. Many here have mentioned the issues faced with just a few extra wifi only devices and the problems it can create in the network. 

I think the only thing I'd say is really missing from Polisy is any tie in with Siri. But that's an Apple issue (in my mind). I'm satisfied having the ability to use Alexa to change settings if needed. But otherwise, after 6 years I've got things automated the way I need them without much interaction. 

 

[bpwwer]

For PG3, (and even for PG2), the store is cloud based, it always has been.  PG3 does make use of the cloud based services to enable more features.  However, it is designed to minimize the need to connect to the cloud and to continue running if it fails to connect to the cloud.

Features that are dependent on the cloud include the ability to handle subscription based node servers.  This is mostly to cover the case where the subscription is about to expire and you renew it.  In order to know that the subscription was renewed, it need to contact the portal.

Node server updates.  Again, to know if a new version of a node server is available, it needs to get updates from the store.  It tries to query the store for these updates 3 times a day.  When it does successfully query the store, it caches that info locally and will continue to use the locally cached info if it is unable to connect to the store.

Similar to new versions, it is possible for node server developers to pass node server specific info to existing installations (think secret keys). During the periodic store queries, it will up date this data if it has changed.  

Lastly, to process payment for non-free node servers, PG3 must be able to contact the Portal.  For free node server, no portal communication is needed.

PG3 also uses your portal account info to determine if you are a registered developer and will enable additional features for developers.  This doesn't affect non-developers.

In theory (I haven't tested this, but if it doesn't work, it's a but) you should be able to refresh the store and then block PG3 from accessing the internet and everything will continue to work. You should be able to start/stop installed node servers and even install new free node servers.  You will not be able to purchase node servers.

Keep in mind that UI is connecting to PG3 on the Polisy over your local network.  So if you unplug the Polisy from the network you won't be able to connect to PG3.  But PG3 and node servers not dependent on the network interface should continue to run.

[MrBill]

56 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Admin Console (NOT ISY nor Polisy), Help | Manage Module checks what's installed on Polisy or ISY994 and compares it with what's in the database in the cloud based on UUID. It then presents Install/Uninstall. This process is 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000% identical on both. The only difference is that we do not allow modules to be purchased for Polisy because everything is moving to node servers.

This is a great explanation, but still why is the admin console knowing it needs to ask? Under the 994, you physically clicked on the store and bought a module.  It's been a long time, but I never questioned how the 994 knew of a portal. 

On the other hand, One minute Polisy doesn't have a portal tab even, and the next minute after entering the UUID in the portal some magic happens and the suddenly the portal module appears.  Whether it's Polisy or the admin console checking is irrelevant-- something that I perceive to be local at the point is reaching out to a server and asking for if it should add the portal tab. 

In light of the smarthome server shutdown it's even more on my mind because... what happens if UD's servers quit answering whatever questions are being asked? And how often are they being asked? Every time the admin console is opened?    I thought I was operating a local system, but apparently there needs to be some communication.  If the admin console is asking a server questions every time it's opened I have even more questions that surround this.

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Please post the thread that "disclosed" the "must" for PG3 remaining connected to the internet. 

PG3 itself is not persistently connected to the internet. There might be node servers (all cloud based node servers) that rely on the internet. PG3 itself only checks the license for node servers that are not free/perpetual and only after start of a node server. 

This thread and specifically this post.   And again I have to ask the question, what happens if the cloud server isn't there anymore.

[Michel Kohanim]

15 minutes ago, MrBill said:

This is a great explanation, but still why is the admin console knowing it needs to ask? Under the 994, you physically clicked on the store and bought a module.  It's been a long time, but I never questioned how the 994 knew of a portal. 

To ask what? Admin console polls the database to see what needs to be installed or uninstalled. How else would it know? ESP? And, if it had ESP, then you would call it magical. So, it's a lose-lose proposition.

16 minutes ago, MrBill said:

On the other hand, One minute Polisy doesn't have a portal tab even, and the next minute after entering the UUID in the portal some magic happens and the suddenly the portal module appears.  Whether it's Polisy or the admin console checking is irrelevant-- something that I perceive to be local at the point is reaching out to a server and asking for if it should add the portal tab. 

I urge you stop the fallacy of "suddenly the portal module appears". The portal appears IF AND ONLY IF you click on the Help | Manage Modules menu, AND you are prompted to INSTALL the ISY Portal AND you click Ok. It does not automatically appear. I know you don't believe me (it's quite obvious), so, why don't you try it yourself.

18 minutes ago, MrBill said:

This thread and specifically this post.   And again I have to ask the question, what happens if the cloud server isn't there anymore.

Nothing in that post discredits what both @bpwwer and I have outlined above. 

With kind regards,
Michel

[MrBill]

9 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Admin console polls the database to see what needs to be installed or uninstalled

I wasn't aware the admin console was automatically polling anything non-local in order to start.  What database is it polling? and what happens if that database doesn't answer (I don't expect UD to go out of business, but then again, I didn't expect smarthome's servers to go dark either.)

11 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Nothing in that post discredits what both @bpwwer and I have outlined above. 

@bpwwer's post above is much more detailed.  it's nice to have a more complete picture.  The prior post, by bpwwwer however makes it seem like PG3 is going to be dead in the water if it can't contact the store.

--

I've run out of time, as is typical I'm not available in the evenings and tonight is no different (its also later in my time zone than yours).  My wife is having surgery at 7AM, so I won't be around tomorrow until I don't know when.  Stating all that because this will be my last reply for the time being.

I do need to understand the complete picture of what communication is required between the admin console and/or PG3 and/or any other component, and I specifically also need to understand what happens if that polling can't be done.   Side questions include what statistics does that database keep?  and how are those statistics protected or how are they shared.

Michel, I'm completely shocked to learn that the Admin console is polling a cloud database at UD every time I open it.  I truly believed that opening the admin console and communicating with the ISY was a completely local operation.

[Michel Kohanim]

7 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I've run out of time, as is typical I'm not available in the evenings and tonight is no different (its also later in my time zone than yours).  My wife is having surgery at 7AM, so I won't be around tomorrow until I don't know when.  Stating all that because this will be my last reply for the time being.

Wish her speedy recovery.

8 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I do need to understand the complete picture of what communication is required between the admin console and/or PG3 and/or any other component, and I specifically also need to understand what happens if that polling can't be done.   Side questions include what statistics does that database keep?  and how are those statistics protected or how are they shared.

Michel, I'm completely shocked to learn that the Admin console is polling a cloud database at UD every time I open it.  I truly believed that opening the admin console and communicating with the ISY was a completely local operation.

O lord. As I suspected, it's a lose lose proposition. Here are some answers to prove my point (hopefully I am wrong):

1. Here's the database structure:

uuid, active, installed, date installed, date purchased, expiry date (hint, no link to user)

2. We do not keep any statistics on anything 

3. When you open the Admin Console:

- Check for firmware update so that you'll see the red banner on the top right corner. Polling https://www.universal-devices.com/auto_update/prod-updates.xml 
- Check whether or not anything needs to be installed/removed  (the same thing as Help | Manage Modules) which polls the database in #1

If it cannot connect to the Internet: you will not know there are updates and you will not know whether or not something has to be installed. Nothing else.

On ISY:

1. Unless you use a local NTP server, obviously ntp server

2. If you use mail/notifications, obviously email server

3. If you have ISY Portal, obviously my.isy.io

Polisy is identical to ISY with one exception:

On udx start, if there's missing package, it's installed from pkg.isy.io. 

With kind regards,
Michel

 

[Jay S]

As of today (6/15/2022) at 6:00 PM EDT, the Alexa Skill for Insteon was re-enabled,  That skill disappeared a couple weeks ago in the wake of the Smart Labs shutdown.  But after I spent over an hour on the phone with the Alexa tech team following the reactivation of the Insteon Hubs after new investors rebooted all servers, I convinced Amazon to retrieve it from archive and turn it back on.

I can confirm the skill is active and Alexa voice control of the Insteon Hub is again working.

HOORAY!!

Edited June 16, 2022 by Jay S
Time zone

[palayman]

On 6/12/2022 at 8:46 AM, upstatemike said:

Will Insteon engage more directly with end users on forums to understand what those users are really looking for? Perhaps have a full-time product ambassadore similiar to Eric at Yolink?

Has anyone else noticed that John Xu (https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-xu-452b1b197/), the founder and CEO of YoSmart (YoLink) is a former Insteon Design Engineer.  Looks like he figured out what not to do while he was there. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by palayman

[larryllix]

https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/9/23161803/insteon-customers-bought-company-restored-service

"A group of customers" bought the rights.

 

[larryllix]

https://www.insteon.com/blog/2022/6/9/fnustys354bfmcmchr36wgvrn5h41z

 

Hopefully this guy will do better At least he professes a different attitude. No tinfoil hat in sight yet.

Go Ken Fairbanks!!

Edited June 16, 2022 by larryllix

[apostolakisl]

On 6/13/2022 at 12:47 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

Existing customers are important which is why backwards compatibility is important. Having a fresh design also reinvigorates their base. If existing customers were buying old insteon like that, they would've stayed in business. New customers obviously weren't enough.  Continuing with the same stale lineup only serves to ensure the same results as previous iterations. 

When it comes to modern designs, the Nokia switches fits in much better with any decor. Not only that, they're ready to go as is. They can come to market with them while working to enhance them in any manner they like. 

In regards to the devices, they are matte along with matching screwless Wallplates. The paddle and keypads have a small led on the side vs a while row. 

 

The srewless wall plate isn't part of the switch and can be done with any decora switch.  The Insteon paddle on the switch is held on with 4 screws.  Standard decora switches from HD or whatever are gloss white.  It would be nothing to offer a swap out paddle that is matte white, or blue or grey, or whatever.  I think Insteon offered a selection of colors in the past.  But not offering the gloss white to match all the rest of the switches in a standard house would be a mistake.  I have no problem offering all sorts of other finishes, just so long as the standard one survives. 

I don't think Insteon's problems were the look of the switches.  Almost all the switches out there look basically the same.  They went out of business because of how they positioned themselves in the market, not the product they brought to market.  They were too proprietary.  That rarely works.  Apple being about the only company that manages to get away with that.  They needed to let 3rd parties participate.  If the new owners stay so tight, they will never gain traction.  Z-wave has flourished because of all the parties involved.  Insteon communication protocols could have been as ubiquitous as z-wave, but they refused.  Insteon, in my opinion, is far better than z-wave.  I bought a number of z-wave switches and have pulled the all and put Insteon in their place.  

[lilyoyo1]

9 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

The srewless wall plate isn't part of the switch and can be done with any decora switch.  The Insteon paddle on the switch is held on with 4 screws.  Standard decora switches from HD or whatever are gloss white.  It would be nothing to offer a swap out paddle that is matte white, or blue or grey, or whatever.  I think Insteon offered a selection of colors in the past.  But not offering the gloss white to match all the rest of the switches in a standard house would be a mistake.  I have no problem offering all sorts of other finishes, just so long as the standard one survives. 

I don't think Insteon's problems were the look of the switches.  Almost all the switches out there look basically the same.  They went out of business because of how they positioned themselves in the market, not the product they brought to market.  They were too proprietary.  That rarely works.  Apple being about the only company that manages to get away with that.  They needed to let 3rd parties participate.  If the new owners stay so tight, they will never gain traction.  Z-wave has flourished because of all the parties involved.  Insteon communication protocols could have been as ubiquitous as z-wave, but they refused.  Insteon, in my opinion, is far better than z-wave.  I bought a number of z-wave switches and have pulled the all and put Insteon in their place.  

The point that i was making about the screwless wall plate is how they match extremely well with the new devices vs older stuff. Its the small attention to detail which the old units lack such as exact color match and how they fit inside the wallplate themselves. Those minor details allow them to stand out even more. It's similar to lutron's devices and their Wallplates. The fit, finish, and consistency allows their devices to stand out just a little bit more. Some people are happy with things being good enough.

However, as others step up and put more thought into their designs, insteon needs to do and be better- especially after their shutdown fiasco. They simply have more to prove at this point in order to win back old customers, gain new ones, and increase interest in 3 party licensing deals.

They can have the best protocol in the world but that means nothing if they don't have product that people want to buy. Getting other companies on board will be harder as well. What do they have to offer that zwave, ZigBee, or wifi doesn't to make someone pay yet another licensing fee to use them? It's always been easy to license X10 but how many do so? Insteon could fall into the same boat. It's not like those same companies were knocking down the door to buy them. 

It's easy to say all that they have to do is XYZ. Reality is much different. They'll have to get companies to buy into them. The best way to do so is have a successful product line that people want to buy. Keeping the old line will allow them to sell a bunch of product early on as existing users snatch up spares but that does not guarantee long term success for their own sales or for others who may see them as the same old company. 

What is overlooked in all of this licensing talk is that Insteon will always be the sole source in dinner manner even with licensing deals since they'll be selling the chips and developing the firmware for the hardware themselves.

For years, Sigma/silicon labs was the sole provider of zwave chips. It's telling that they opened up semi-conductor manufacturing to others in 2020 and yet you still see others buying from them because it's easier, quicker, and cheaper that way. No different than corporations selling franchises. It's yours but they still maintain control through various means and methods. Insteon will want to do the same. This means control over the firmware, code, or chip itself hence sole source in some manner. 

Because of this, before investing in product design, integration, distribution, etc. interested parties will wait to see if insteon will be viable long term. Ditto for installers. Those burned over the last year(especially with closure) will not rush to jump back on that band wagon. The message that a new line sends is much greater than the old. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by lilyoyo1

[epete]

 

...from todays Insteon email...

What happened to smarthome.com?

 Another entity has purchased the smarthome.com domain – Insteon is no longer connected to Smarthome. You’ll be able to buy Insteon products directly through Insteon.com and other partners in the future.

[Techman]

Agreed, change the name of the forum.

The new company is called INSTEON TECHNOLOGIES, LLC.